Which Side Is Which?

[Paulus 1,942]

Quick question, haven't found the answer on Google yet ...

In the case of Conder tokens, and other numismatic items without a bust, which side is the obverse and which is the reverse?

Or are such terms inapplicable to such things, in which case how do we refer to each side?

Edited January 22, 2014 by Paulus

[Coinery 926]

The right-hand image looks a fair shout to me! Made all the more confusing by a head AND a tail on the left image!

[Peckris 579]

I would say that the obverse is the side that identifies the area or company (e.g. Liverpool, or the Anglesey Copper Mines). But I'm only guessing really.

[Coinery 926]

What's the date of that, Paulus? And for how much longer are you going to hide behind the smoke-screen of an 'early-milled silver collector'? I think it's time you came out and told us straight...you love a bit of copper, don't you! Don't be embarrassed about it, there's no shame in it!

Is it your's?

[Paulus 1,942]

What's the date of that, Paulus? And for how much longer are you going to hide behind the smoke-screen of an 'early-milled silver collector'? I think it's time you came out and told us straight...you love a bit of copper, don't you! Don't be embarrassed about it, there's no shame in it!

Is it your's?

Hehe, yes I do like a bit of copper ... variety and history and more affordable ... truth is I can't afford any of my milled silver gaps in a decent grade at the moment!

I had posted this coin in the 'Let's See Your Copper Coins, Tokens, Or Medals!' thread a few weeks ago, and didn't know much about it when I snaffled it for a paltry £12 delivered off the bay. So yes it's mine, it's a 1795 Suffolk/Bury halfpenny, Dalton&Hamer #26, with the edge lettering of "PAYABLE AT P. DECKS POST OFFICE BURY .XX" (last bit courtesy of brg).

Peter went on to add that the 'head and tail' you refer to belong to the wolf guarding St Edmund's head.

I find the Conder tokens quite fascinating ... still don't know how to refer to each of the sides though!

[TomGoodheart 373]

I would say that the obverse is the side that identifies the area or company (e.g. Liverpool, or the Anglesey Copper Mines). But I'm only guessing really.

Yes. In this case the left hand image is the shield of arms for Bury St Edmunds, so I'd call that the obverse.

I believe the reverse signifies that it is payable at P Decks Post Office (which is what it should say on the edge)

As a rule of thumb I'd say the side that changes least (issuer, town etc) would be obv, then the merchant where the thing can be redeemed the reverse. If a merchant issued several different designs though probably the side that identifies the merchant should be obv.

If that makes sense?

Edited January 22, 2014 by TomGoodheart

[Paulus 1,942]

I would say that the obverse is the side that identifies the area or company (e.g. Liverpool, or the Anglesey Copper Mines). But I'm only guessing really.

Yes. In this case the left hand image is the shield of arms for Bury St Edmunds, so I'd call that the obverse.

I believe the reverse signifies that it is payable at P Decks Post Office (which is what it should say on the edge)

As a rule of thumb I'd say the side that changes least (issuer, town etc) would be obv, then the merchant where the thing can be redeemed the reverse. If a merchant issued several different designs though probably the side that identifies the merchant should be obv.

If that makes sense?

Yes I think so, thanks Richard and Peck!

[Coinery 926]

Pah!

[Garrett 76]

I would have guessed that the right is the obverse because it has a crown (monarchs = obverse) while the shield on the left image reminds me of coats of arms often seen on reverses.

I really have no idea though, does any reference works give any opinion ?

[Rob 3,002]

D&H gives the shield side as the obverse as it is the Arms of Bury St. Edmunds and so denotes it as a Bury halfpenny.

There are two nearly identical obverses for Bury which are paired with a total of 3 reverses and bear a multitude of edge readings to give just over a dozen varieties.

Edited January 22, 2014 by Rob

[bagerap 706]

£12 delivered?

[Peckris 579]

What's the date of that, Paulus? And for how much longer are you going to hide behind the smoke-screen of an 'early-milled silver collector'? I think it's time you came out and told us straight...you love a bit of copper, don't you! Don't be embarrassed about it, there's no shame in it!

Is it your's?

Hehe, yes I do like a bit of copper ... variety and history and more affordable ... truth is I can't afford any of my milled silver gaps in a decent grade at the moment!

I had posted this coin in the 'Let's See Your Copper Coins, Tokens, Or Medals!' thread a few weeks ago, and didn't know much about it when I snaffled it for a paltry £12 delivered off the bay. So yes it's mine, it's a 1795 Suffolk/Bury halfpenny, Dalton&Hamer #26, with the edge lettering of "PAYABLE AT P. DECKS POST OFFICE BURY .XX" (last bit courtesy of brg).

Peter went on to add that the 'head and tail' you refer to belong to the wolf guarding St Edmund's head.

I find the Conder tokens quite fascinating ... still don't know how to refer to each of the sides though!

I understand perfectly! Doubt if I'll ever be able to afford a George I crown.

[Paulus 1,942]

I understand perfectly! Doubt if I'll ever be able to afford a George I crown.

Funnily enough, that's one of my gaps!

[davidrj 194]

As a collector of world copper, I gave up worrying a while back - let's face if you find the coin in the reference works (in English or otherwise) there's only a choice of two sides!

I standardize my photo pairs, the side with the date on always goes to the left - this usually being the side I want to see when sitting in a coin tray

[Peckris 579]

I understand perfectly! Doubt if I'll ever be able to afford a George I crown.

Funnily enough, that's one of my gaps!

LOL, no coincidence when you look at the prices! It's made me reappraise my approach to type collecting : as the reverse of George I crowns is the same type across all silver denominations (and the same as earlier reigns too), then as long as I have a decent plain and a decent roses and plumes reverse, on a coin at least shilling-sized, I can tick that box. All that remains is to get a decent silver obverse of George I, which can be afforded via shillings (though a halfcrown would be nice ).

Thank heavens early milled silver has virtually the same few reverses! It means one can 'cheat' with a type collection.

[Peter 615]

keep off my home town coins and history.

I now have moved 7 miles away but a Bury boy through and through...I just couldn't live anywhere else....I mean we had our own mint.Manchester mint,Liverpool mint PAH.

[brg5658 111]

Quick question, haven't found the answer on Google yet ...

In the case of Conder tokens, and other numismatic items without a bust, which side is the obverse and which is the reverse?

Or are such terms inapplicable to such things, in which case how do we refer to each side?

Birchall in his 1796 work says the obverse is the Crown (right) side.

Conder in his 1798 work says the obverse is the Crest and Wolf (left) side.

Pye in his 1801 work pictures the obverse as the Crown (right) side.

Atkins in his 1892 work says the obverse is the Crest and Wolf (left) side.

Dalton & Hamer in their 1910s work list the obverse as the Crest and Wolf (left) side.

In summary, most collectors today would consider the Crest and Wolf as the obverse, as Dalton and Hamer is the reference of choice. But, as you can see above, the designation is somewhat arbitrary and inconsistent.