Tgp - Good And The Bad

[Rob 3,002]

People just need to apply a bit of intelligence instead of blindly relying on everyone else.

My concern is that the focus might (or probably has in some quarters) shift from the coin to the grade. So instead of people looking for a nicer coin, they seek a higher number.This to me is the inherent problem with all TPGS. Whether one is better or not is to me, a moot point. Protection of coins, conservation, authentication? I have no problems with any of those.But fuelling the 'number chasing' craze? They are all bad in that respect to my eyes and as Rob alludes, people need to learn to make up their own minds about a coin, instead of relying on someone else. IMHO..

I totally agree that chasing the number is a problem. everyone should learn to grade and judge each coin on it's own merits. I also agree that registry sets tend to attract buyers of the number and not the coin. My argument is for those who are unsure of their grading skills and enjoy the hobby by collecting already graded coins - a universal grading system would be beneficial - as long as consistency in grading applies.

I understand where you are coming from, but question the premise that there are many genuine collectors who are that unsure about their grading skills, yet are happy to spend hundred or even thousands on something they know nothing about. The idea that you can rely on an uncalibrated grader to accurately grade across both time and relative to their peers is a non-starter, so the ball is firmly in the court of the collector in my opinion. Why would anyone refuse to spend a tenner on a book which would clarify how to grade, yet spend many multiples on a coin. Frankly, I don't think it is too much to ask the uninitiated to become just slightly initiated. The genuine 'collector' who doesn't care or want to grade is an investor. Different rules apply at this point.

Would you walk into a shop and buy a suit simply because it said 38 chest, 34 leg etc without trying it on? I think not. You would see if it was right for you. A few rudimentary ground rules for collectors is therefore not asking too much.

Ah, now we move into a different - but closely related topic. What is a collector? Is he purely in it for the pursuit of completing or advancing his collection? Or is he in it not only to advance his collecting interests - but to benefit financially? Isn't every collector actually part collector and part investor?

I think the latter applies by default rather than design. Historically, coins have generally drifted upwards in value with a few peaks and troughs. In pure physical numbers, almost any long term collector will make money without any correction for inflation. I just have a problem accepting there might be collectors who are completely ignorant of grading, yet are willing to spend 3,4,5.. figure sums on something they purport to know nothing about. If any such animal exists it should be an endangered species. The casual purchaser is likely to be someone who has bought a coin because it was struck in their home town for example, and they like it for that without being interested in the wider subject of numismatics.

Anyone who looks at a number of coins in their pocket cannot fail to notice the differences in condition. Anyone who collects coins will invariably have a reference book which will refer to coin grading, usually with a handful of images. Whether it is current or out of date is not important as grading is not time dependent. There are complete books on the subject such as Derek's. The info is not proprietary and any failure to investigate is not the fault of the market, but the individual. I don't believe that people buy coins but don't even look at them.

So it all boils down to whether the individual understands what they are buying. If they have no concept of grading, any system will be meaningless. If they have a rudimentary knowledge of grades, consistency by the TPGs would be paramount, but not entirely reliant on a single unified scale in universal use. The info that MS70 is 'perfect' just has to be set alongside the alternative scale, as is found in any table showing comparative non-numerical grades in different languages.

As said before, the big impediment is the inconsistency of the TPGs, who despite having a set of rules, fail to grade consistently. This is a more intractable problem than the individual who can't grade because if the main players are inconsistent, why shouldn't anyone else use their own interpretation of the Sheldon or any other system. Anything becomes acceptable. In the absence of a reliable grading system, it has to be incumbent on the collector to look after their own interests.

[azda 973]

I'd agree with most commemts here. CGS for British coin grading and PCGS fort he rest. I'd also agree with Alan (mhcoins) regarding the scale that they used and that they may have missed the international boat on this. Saying that, they may only want to stick to mainly British coin grading. You never know, we may see them change this grading scale sometime in the future.

Edited January 19, 2014 by azda

[Rob 3,002]

Rob, I always appreciate your input and also that you are rightly confident in your grading but perhaps there are other facets to this whole thing. As Ex- has said, not all collectors are as advanced or confident in their grading capability. So they may have a different perspective than you or I when it comes to a slabbed TPG product.

Perhaps even more important, if your coin were up for sale would you not want it to fetch the best price possible? And what of your heirs should they choose to dispose of your holdings?

And nowadays, one just might have to consider an elephant in the room - TPGs such as PCGS and a sale through Heritage, I would think?

I do agree that some of the micro-varieties are missed by these people, and sometimes they don't seem to know the difference between hairlines and die polish, but yet they do lend themselves to convertibility . Also, I need not remind you of the [probably] worse subjective grading demonstrated by some old fashioned dealers that even advertise prominently in Coin News (how about a certain J.W. as an example?).

We both know there are good and bad TPGs just as we know there are good and bad graders amongst individuals. As said before, this is always going to be a subjective matter. The standards used by NGC and PCGS differ wildly from the guy who trades as centisles(?) for example. You can't stop the latter, because we live in a world where his opinion is his right, and his right to carry on a legitimate business within the law is undeniable. All that matters is that he is consistent. Even the individual TPGs have variable standards for the same type within their own setup, otherwise you would never be able to resubmit until the grade you wanted was obtained. And what about the slabbed dodgy ones? I know of quite a few doctored coins in slabs, or even the odd fake or two.

Would I sell my collection slabbed by a US TPG? Probably not. Ancient coinage has vitually all come out of the ground. Therefore cleaned and by default 'xx details, cleaned' if the rules are consistently applied. Most of the time their hammered grading is best avoided and the vagaries of hammered coins don't lend themselves to a consistent numbering system. It boils down to whether I believe the results would be beneficial. That's a definite maybe, maybe not. Given I threw out a coin last year because of the wear which was promptly graded MS66 by NGC , yet Steve has just bought a wonderfully undergraded PF62 penny leads me to think it would be a mixed bag, even for the milled.

[Peckris 579]

Ah, now we move into a different - but closely related topic. What is a collector? Is he purely in it for the pursuit of completing or advancing his collection? Or is he in it not only to advance his collecting interests - but to benefit financially? Isn't every collector actually part collector and part investor?

I'm afraid that question opens an entire can of worms. I for one, have always collected coins for their historic interest but also their individual beauty (the latter being the paramount reason that has grown over the years). In earlier days - like when I started as a schoolboy - I was interested in 'completion', as in date runs. I still value the completeness of my bronze pennies but have to draw a line over certain rarities and micro varieties, the former being beyond my reach and the latter beyond my interest.

I do suspect that the 'number chasers' are little more than the numismatic equivalent of trainspotters with money to spend, fuelling their mild Asperger's Syndrome at the expense of common sense and a grasp of what coin collecting has traditionally been all about.

However, I cannot sit here and deny that following the value of my own collection has been important to me. I've even become a bit of a student of changing UK values over the years from the 1960s onwards, and I do recognise that like any investment 'the values can both fall and rise'. I was a beginner in the late 1960s and saw for myself at first hand how a 'bubble' is created which then has to burst later when more realistic market forces take over. In that sense, I agree that collectors are also investors, but the true collector is in coins for what they mean, not simply as an engine for financial growth, to be disposed of without a qualm when needs must.

I enjoy coins for their historical interest and probably to a lesser extent their beauty.

I try to make good buys because I am still slightly competitive and the research I do before buying an expensive coin is interesting.

I am not out to profit, but is nice to know I should be able to get something for my coins if I am forced to sell them towards the pointy end of my life.

Not much interested in slabs or numbers in general. May be more interested if buying a heavily faked item.

Cheers Garrett

You used fewer words, but we're both singing from the same hymnsheet.

Rob, I always appreciate your input and also that you are rightly confident in your grading but perhaps there are other facets to this whole thing. As Ex- has said, not all collectors are as advanced or confident in their grading capability. So they may have a different perspective than you or I when it comes to a slabbed TPG product.

Perhaps even more important, if your coin were up for sale would you not want it to fetch the best price possible? And what of your heirs should they choose to dispose of your holdings?

And nowadays, one just might have to consider an elephant in the room - TPGs such as PCGS and a sale through Heritage, I would think?

I do agree that some of the micro-varieties are missed by these people, and sometimes they don't seem to know the difference between hairlines and die polish, but yet they do lend themselves to convertibility . Also, I need not remind you of the [probably] worse subjective grading demonstrated by some old fashioned dealers that even advertise prominently in Coin News (how about a certain J.W. as an example?).

We both know there are good and bad TPGs just as we know there are good and bad graders amongst individuals. As said before, this is always going to be a subjective matter. The standards used by NGC and PCGS differ wildly from the guy who trades as centisles(?) for example. You can't stop the latter, because we live in a world where his opinion is his right, and his right to carry on a legitimate business within the law is undeniable. All that matters is that he is consistent. Even the individual TPGs have variable standards for the same type within their own setup, otherwise you would never be able to resubmit until the grade you wanted was obtained. And what about the slabbed dodgy ones? I know of quite a few doctored coins in slabs, or even the odd fake or two.

Would I sell my collection slabbed by a US TPG? Probably not. Ancient coinage has vitually all come out of the ground. Therefore cleaned and by default 'xx details, cleaned' if the rules are consistently applied. Most of the time their hammered grading is best avoided and the vagaries of hammered coins don't lend themselves to a consistent numbering system. It boils down to whether I believe the results would be beneficial. That's a definite maybe, maybe not. Given I threw out a coin last year because of the wear which was promptly graded MS66 by NGC , yet Steve has just bought a wonderfully undergraded PF62 penny leads me to think it would be a mixed bag, even for the milled.

I agree - there are books to help the novice grader, Derek's being the outstanding example for British coins, and I believe there has been an American equivalent too? There was an individual who had an advert on a prominent page in the leading UK magazines for a long long time, and his grading was always a grade too high; but I suppose - as Rob says - at least he was consistent. The problem there is, if that dealer was someone's prime source, they would end up sitting on a collection that was inferior to what they believed it to be from the description of what they were sold.

TPG's will sink or swim by their consistency. If they don't agree with each other, or vary even within their own grading, then the bubble they have created will - or should, if commonsense still exists - eventually burst.

[Sword 1,330]

If NGC and PCGS operated different grading scales there would be fierce competition to set the industry standard, but that isn't the case. The world of numismatics now has an accepted grading scale and the horse has bolted for CGS. They've scaled back their operation and no longer grade a significant number of coins. Even the separate section in London Coins auction (the same business, effectively) has been dropped. I do think it's a shame because I believe we need a UK grading house.

I am not sure if CGS has scaled back. They graded about 4000 coins in the past year which is about the norm for them. Someone has supposedly submitted over 1000 coins in a single consignment last June.

I agree - there are books to help the novice grader, Derek's being the outstanding example for British coins, and I believe there has been an American equivalent too? There was an individual who had an advert on a prominent page in the leading UK magazines for a long long time, and his grading was always a grade too high; but I suppose - as Rob says - at least he was consistent. The problem there is, if that dealer was someone's prime source, they would end up sitting on a collection that was inferior to what they believed it to be from the description of what they were sold.

One problem the novice learning the Sheldon Scale is that the TPGs (and some dealers) would say one thing but do another. The definition of MS on the Sheldon scale is that there should be absolutely no wear. But we all know that the majority of coins MS62 / MS63 or below do have some wear and should really be graded AU58 at best. Consistentcy can only be achieve if people actually grade according to the agreed criteria.

[Peter 615]

1000 coins submitted.

So they have bought 1000 coins that they know diddly about.

I have a name for a knobhead like this and it isn't becoming.

Edited January 19, 2014 by Peter

[Sword 1,330]

1000 coins submitted.

So they have bought 1000 coins that they know diddly about.

I have a name for a knobhead like this and it isn't becoming.

Could have been a dealer who believes (rightly or wrongly) that the slabbed coins will sell quicker or for a little more?

[Rob 3,002]

1000 coins submitted.

So they have bought 1000 coins that they know diddly about.

I have a name for a knobhead like this and it isn't becoming.

Could have been a dealer who believes (rightly or wrongly) that the slabbed coins will sell quicker or for a little more?

Unlikely. How many dealers have 1000 coins worth slabbing just sitting in their trays?

[Exbrit 79]

Great discussion. I have to admit, I enjoy my raw collection over my slabs. The slabs have one advantage, however. Many dealers will buy a slab that has been graded by one of the major TPGs sight unseen. They also sell easier on EBay. Photographs help when selling raw coins, but it is not the same as the guaranty provided by TPG coins.

When I am referring to dealers - I am talking about worldwide.

As far as Collector and/or Investor goes - I believe that many investors may eventually become collectors and many (if not all) collectors believe that their collections are worth something and even though they may not admit it - hope the value of their collection increases over time.

[Accumulator 52]

I think all collectors are investors to some extent, but not all investors are collectors.

I have no particular plans to sell my collection) so, if it is an investment, I may never realise it. I fully admit, though, to gaining a certain satisfaction when any coin I purchase jumps in value.

Those investors who aren't collectors could easily leave the market should economics change, at which point the buyers of some top end coins could be left to take a bath.

[VickySilver 775]

I certainly pray that is true, tough sledding for the nearer term in many series...

[Coinery 926]

Blimey, TPGC's!

[Rob 3,002]

Blimey, TPGC's!

Blimey, TPGC's what?

[Paulus 1,942]

Blimey, TPGC's!

Blimey, TPGC's what?

Yes, what's happened Stuart? Or have you, like me, just finished reading all the posts in this thread?!

[Coinery 926]

Blimey, TPGC's!

Blimey, TPGC's what?

Yes, what's happened Stuart? Or have you, like me, just finished reading all the posts in this thread?!

On the head, Paulus! Right on the head!

Edit: it really needs its own dedicated forum page, it's such a popular debate! It would would probably get the google number 1 slot for search terms 'CGS' NGC' PCGS' ahead of the slabbing companies themselves, such is the volume of material in this area! Just sayin'!

I am mostly finished with the subject myself, I have to say!

Edited January 19, 2014 by Coinery

[Sword 1,330]

Blimey, TPGC's!

Blimey, TPGC's what?

Yes, what's happened Stuart? Or have you, like me, just finished reading all the posts in this thread?!

On the head, Paulus! Right on the head!

Edit: it really needs its own dedicated forum page, it's such a popular debate! It would would probably get the google number 1 slot for search terms 'CGS' NGC' PCGS' ahead of the slabbing companies themselves, such is the volume of material in this area! Just sayin'!

I am mostly finished with the subject myself, I have to say!

I did suggest that a while back. We have surely generated over 100 pages of discussion by now.

Just for fun, I have just search "CGS NGC PCGS" on google. Predecimal Forum only comes up on top of page 2

[Coinery 926]

Blimey, TPGC's!

Blimey, TPGC's what?

Yes, what's happened Stuart? Or have you, like me, just finished reading all the posts in this thread?!

On the head, Paulus! Right on the head!

Edit: it really needs its own dedicated forum page, it's such a popular debate! It would would probably get the google number 1 slot for search terms 'CGS' NGC' PCGS' ahead of the slabbing companies themselves, such is the volume of material in this area! Just sayin'!

I am mostly finished with the subject myself, I have to say!

I did suggest that a while back. We have surely generated over 100 pages of discussion by now.

Just for fun, I have just search "CGS NGC PCGS" on google. Predecimal Forum only comes up on top of page 2

Ah, yes, but consolidate it under one title and the story would be different!

[Paulus 1,942]

Agree mainly about consistency, opportunities for buying mis-attributed coins, opportunities for maximising returns when selling certain top grades, and perhaps CGS taking a big gamble with their own grading scale ...

This caught my eye on eBay today as an example of the ludicrous nomenclature and grading of some TPGs:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131092440983?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

So this is in some way almost uncirculated (AU55) is it??!! In what universe???

Edited January 20, 2014 by Paulus

[Rob 3,002]

It would be nice for a TPG to explain how the above AU coin can reasonably be slotted in between the following EF 1 over inverted 1 (top), and the uncirculated NS@H (bottom). And the one in the slab has been cleaned.

Edited January 20, 2014 by Rob

[Rob 3,002]

[brg5658 111]

[Rob 3,002]

What?

[brg5658 111]

What?

That emoticon means I'm just watching the "show"...watching everyone get their feathers ruffled by the (incessant and recurring) TPG argument. That's all.

Edited January 20, 2014 by brg5658

[Rob 3,002]

Thanks.

It simply won't go away. Sadly, it can't even be consigned to the eBay laughs thread either because these contradictions occur anywhere and everywhere. The example Paulus posted is a particularly bad example. Downgraded to around the VF mark or slightly below would be more appropriate. We all have a good laugh about some of the ludicrous overgrading by individuals on eBay, but the TPGs are supposed to be professionals who should know better. It can't be that they are short of examples to act as a benchmark given the number around.

[Peckris 579]

Agree mainly about consistency, opportunities for buying mis-attributed coins, opportunities for maximising returns when selling certain top grades, and perhaps CGS taking a big gamble with their own grading scale ...

This caught my eye on eBay today as an example of the ludicrous nomenclature and grading of some TPGs:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/131092440983?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

So this is in some way almost uncirculated (AU55) is it??!! In what universe???

I note there are 5 pictures of the obverse (which isn't as worn), but only 1 of the reverse - at an angle, and in the slab. It's been cleaned too, fairly obviously. Some fool has been parted from his money, and that's no part of a TPG argument brg5658 : it's a fact.

It would be nice for a TPG to explain how the above AU coin can reasonably be slotted in between the following EF 1 over inverted 1 (top), and the uncirculated NS@H (bottom). And the one in the slab has been cleaned.

Your EF example is rather conservatively graded IMO Rob, but the point is well made.