Pcgs Vs Cgs

[Mynki 23]

You might want to look at this Mynki.

Chris' (owner) book offerings are available on Amazon and Derek's Grading book :http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0948964839?ie=UTF8&tag=predecimalcoi-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=0948964839 might be of interest. They do say you should buy the book before you buy the coin, after all!

Oh, and Collectors' Coins GB. Cheaper than Spink.

Thanks, I was looking for a grading book, I'll take a look.

[TomGoodheart 373]

It's surprising how difficult it is to decide where to start. I did like the look of hammered coins, but found them a little daunting if I'm honest. I bought the Spinks guide (I know there's a new one out in a few days, but as I said, I am impatient!) but the sheer variety available doesn't make it easy.

Well, although it's commoner that people collect by denomination, reign or metal, it's not compulsory!

If you read around you'll find that Rob collects what he likes. I seem to remember the main criteria are that he buys the best coin he can find and he has a list of privy (mint) marks he's after. But he doesn't limit himself very much beyond that (and I think that it needs to be a British issue) so his collection includes copper patterns, crowns and tiny hammered silver halfpennies.

As for daunting, for many series there are more specialist books and guides that can be used as a sort of check list to collecting if you want to try to get all the known varieties. Though some might argue that buying widely and then using your collection to research a particular area is more exciting.

That's the thing about collecting coins. It's a hobby that can be adapted to your likes and dislikes. And even budget .. sometimes!

[Peckris 579]

Some very interesting points there. It's only recently that I've taken an interest in collecting more seriously than my earlier attempts. I'f I'm honest I'm still trying to decide what areas I'd like to start serious collections in. The choice is immense and the learning curve very steep. Normally I'm the impatient sort but am trying very hard to restrain myself until I'm sure I know what I want to learn about and collect.

I'd like to build a collection to hand over to my young son when the time comes and hope he'll share my interest as he grows. I confess, I'm also an investor and entrepeneur in other areas and this does rightly or wrongly make me look at potential purchases in different ways. From what I can gather, I really should look at raw initially as this will assist with being able to grade myself. I can see the obvious flaws with slabbed coins that have been mentioned and I also understand the difference in mentalities between the US and UK, I've certainly spent enough time stateside to understand how many yanks think differently from the brits, so their attitudes to slabbing don't really come as any surprise to me. So Azda, you really don't come across as racist to me, and I doubt anyone else. Life would be pretty boring if we all had the same mentality after all!

My initial interest was sparked by seeing several slabbed UK bullion coins selling for an apparent premium to the american market. This made me wonder if there was any mileage in buying, slabbing and selling with the slab 'adding more value than it's initial cost' to overseas markets. This isn't the collector in me talking, but the entrepeneur. However, if it were that easy I'm sure a lot more people would be doing it right now!

This also made me wonder if the likes of London Coins purchase bullion coins in volume and then examine them and simply slab the best examples to add a premium to their stock? What does everybody else think?

So I think I'll probably look to acquire some similar raw coins and see how I do at grading them, and then purchase a slabbed version to see if I can see the comparrison myself. I'm under no illusion that there is an awful lot to learn here.

That's a very sensible attitude to starting off - curbing impatience until you've learned to grade, and got some idea of what you really want to specialise in (though there's nothing to stop you collecting widely - but sensibly - to begin with, you can always sell off later the items you're not so keen on).

I wouldn't be very surprised if it turned out that London Coins do something on those lines - after all, they slabbed and then promoted on eBay some not very special 1915 farthings (VF), so who knows? As it stands, their population reports are pretty meaningless, restricted to what they've actually seen and slabbed.

Small picky point : if a Brit says something against Americans or vice versa, they can't be accused of racism. Britain and the US are BOTH composed of different races. Nationalism, is what I think you meI

It's surprising how difficult it is to decide where to start. I did like the look of hammered coins, but found them a little daunting if I'm honest. I bought the Spinks guide (I know there's a new one out in a few days, but as I said, I am impatient!) but the sheer variety available doesn't make it easy. Bullion coins have some appeal as I firmly believe that silver values will increase significantly over the next couple of decades for a whole variety of reasons, but don't have the same interest or appeal as others to me personally.

I wouldn't read anything into the racism remark, it was in direct reply to another member who'd used that word in his defence.

Before reading the threads on this forum it was very apparent to me that there is some kind of 'special relationship' between LC and CGS. It would be interesting to see if anyone had the business accumen to market the virtues of CGS to the yanks. Writing marketting drivel on ebay does have it's advantages after all, I'm sure there is an opportunity there for someone.....

It's a lot simpler even than that - they are run by the same people! You could regard CGS as the TPG arm of LC.

[brg5658 111]

Before reading the threads on this forum it was very apparent to me that there is some kind of 'special relationship' between LC and CGS. It would be interesting to see if anyone had the business accumen to market the virtues of CGS to the yanks. Writing marketting drivel on ebay does have it's advantages after all, I'm sure there is an opportunity there for someone.....

It's a lot simpler even than that - they are run by the same people! You could regard CGS as the TPG arm of LC.

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that LC offers for sale on occasion clearly counterfeit coins? Like this Centenary Florin they sold back in August 2013. It is not only a counterfeit, but a pretty bad one.

[scottishmoney 18]

I have been collecting coins since the late 1970s or so ie from when I was a little kid. I have been collecting seriously enough to buy up all the numismatic books, and attend shows etc since the early 1980s. I have seen stuff come and go - slabs have been around awhile and will continue to be - but they don't do anything for me. I collect because I enjoy history and artistry. I understand that people get their knickers all bunched up about slabs, and even resort to potty language in forums. I don't get it. I frankly couldn't give a rat's crusty barm if someone likes slabs or not.

That said I have some early Scots and English hammered that has been "slabbed" as MS this or that - but I bought the coin and not the plastic. I think slabbing hammered as MS is pure nonsense -because the striking characteristics of hammer and die coinage are very variable and different from screw press and then machine struck coinage.

Raw - uncooked:

[Coinery 926]

Before reading the threads on this forum it was very apparent to me that there is some kind of 'special relationship' between LC and CGS. It would be interesting to see if anyone had the business accumen to market the virtues of CGS to the yanks. Writing marketting drivel on ebay does have it's advantages after all, I'm sure there is an opportunity there for someone.....

It's a lot simpler even than that - they are run by the same people! You could regard CGS as the TPG arm of LC.

Am I the only one who is bothered by the fact that LC offers for sale on occasion clearly counterfeit coins? Like this Centenary Florin they sold back in August 2013. It is not only a counterfeit, but a pretty bad one.

You're not alone, no, it bugs the hell out of all of us! To date I've managed to procure 2 fakes from a major auction house, one which was spotted before setting off home, the other they honourably refunded me for (nearly 6 month's later) when I finally weighed it for cataloging and frightened myself!

No complaints, just disappointed that it was I who had to spot them!

[Coinery 926]

I collect because I enjoy history and artistry.

Raw - uncooked:

Hear blinkin' hear! And that coin's so beautifully buttery it would melt if but a ray fell upon it!

Very pretty!

[Rob 2,998]

You're not alone, no, it bugs the hell out of all of us! To date I've managed to procure 2 fakes from a major auction house, one which was spotted before setting off home, the other they honourably refunded me for (nearly 6 month's later) when I finally weighed it for cataloging and frightened myself!

No complaints, just disappointed that it was I who had to spot them!

You should also bear in mind that the opportunity does exist for strikes in unrecorded metals. cf my article in the BNJ on the Weyl patterns. Having bought a couple of 'aluminium' patterns in the Adams penny sale in 2003, I then almost cra**ed myself upon discovering that they were over 3 times the weight they should have been. Only after I had sat down and taken a deep breath did logic take a grip when I appreciated that it didn't matter what they were struck in as long as they were genuine - cue nine previously unrecorded varieties. i.e. you cannot rely on weight alone.

Edited November 25, 2013 by Rob

[Coinery 926]

You're not alone, no, it bugs the hell out of all of us! To date I've managed to procure 2 fakes from a major auction house, one which was spotted before setting off home, the other they honourably refunded me for (nearly 6 month's later) when I finally weighed it for cataloging and frightened myself!

No complaints, just disappointed that it was I who had to spot them!

You should also bear in mind that the opportunity does exist for strikes in unrecorded metals. cf my article in the BNJ on the Weyl patterns. Having bought a couple of 'aluminium' patterns in the Adams penny sale in 2003, I then almost cra**ed myself upon discovering that they were over 3 times the weight they should have been. Only after I had sat down and taken a deep breath did logic take a grip when I appreciated that it didn't matter what they were struck in as long as they were genuine - cue nine previously unrecorded varieties. i.e. you cannot rely on weight alone.

Quite true re your last point, though I'd still probably suffer a breakdown first!

The coin I'm referring too was hammered, though!

I've not read your article, which is unforgivable to be honest...can I have the ref?

[Rob 2,998]

Vol.81(2011) p181-203

[Coinery 926]

Thanks!

[Rob 2,998]

You can add an update to the article in that I found an example in a 1901 sale, which proves conclusively that they were not commissioned by Murdoch (see article p.189 and DNW 70 lot 194 footnote)

[Coinery 926]

You can add an update to the article in that I found an example in a 1901 sale, which proves conclusively that they were not commissioned by Murdoch (see article p.189 and DNW 70 lot 194 footnote)

I'll definitely take a look at that! I'll have to rope you into proof reading the Pumpy Grottom and Moley & the Treetop Cafe for me! A very different discipline...though I have got a grown-up one on the back-burner called Cider & Fire! That could be more up your street?

[RLC35 288]

The trouble is both the American market and the UK market seem to have taken different paths over the last twenty years or so with collectors in both countries totally sure their country is taking the right path .

While both countries have much in common the paths and developements in the field of coin dealing they are miles apart

Thi ´s is very true, our difference is that we're not being told by large multinational companies that slabbing is the only way to achieve coin greatness. America is driven by Marketing companies who tell you that you must blah blah blah or else and the poor souls buy into it so much so that they swap/sell a coin for a Point more on a slab, what is 1 Point exacvtly, could you Point it out on the two same coins side by side?

In the UK, we buy coins becaise of the history of them, who has owned them before us etc, this is my Points and absolutely NOTHING to do with American bashing as according to the poster. There are several American collectors on here who have'nt bought into the TPG mentality, those are true collectors in my opinion, those are the People who want to collect for the history and not for the Dollar, so forgive me Vicky and Bob if it has come across like that, and my aploogies to the rest of the Forum. I'm a passionate collector as you all know.

***********************************************

No apology needed Azda...I'm with you!

[scottishmoney 18]

Canna imagine someone or someones getting so kerfuffled about TPG's that they resort to some of the name calling, the foul invectives, and discussion of racial epithets. Just sayin'.

[azda 973]

Canna imagine someone or someones getting so kerfuffled about TPG's that they resort to some of the name calling, the foul invectives, and discussion of racial epithets. Just sayin'.

I think you also seem to be getting the wrong Impression of why i exploded scottishmoney. I will explain, but before i do, i also noticed you've deleted my comment on this thread from last night. This Explosion was nothing to do what so ever with this thread and American TPGs, it was to do with FACT that the American poster has been Digging HIS CLAWS into me for the past 2 weeks which you can see from several threads such as "toned coins" thread and another. Now when you start deleting my comments and not looking at the cause then i think its getting a little one sided don't you? As is Aid in my deleted comment, i'll make my apologies to the forum for my outburst but not to the poster who Sees fit to continually goad me about my opinion (which is a perfectly good opinion) although according to him, my opinion does'nt really count as you can see from the beginning of this topic

[Red Riley 2]

You might want to look at this Mynki.

Chris' (owner) book offerings are available on Amazon and Derek's Grading book :http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0948964839?ie=UTF8&tag=predecimalcoi-21&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=6738&creativeASIN=0948964839 might be of interest. They do say you should buy the book before you buy the coin, after all!

Oh, and Collectors' Coins GB. Cheaper than Spink.

The Grading book linked by Tom is a splendid work. I picked it up a few months back, and it's highly useful!

Thought I would wait for the heat to go out of this thread before I added my fourpennorth and this gives me a nice opportunity. Firstly, brg thanks for the kind words (for my sins, I wrote the grading book). Secondly, to all intents and purposes the book is now out of print, I have a few copies but they won't last for ever. I am toying with writing a revised edition but there are a few things to be sorted and this is at best some while away.

As a small time dealer, I have had some involvement with buying and selling slabbed coins and for what it's worth I find that approximately half my UK customers ask me to remove the coin from the slab before sending it to them. The reason for this is not hard to see and revolves around the collector mentality in that we all like to line our coins up in one way or another and the odd slab just sticks out like a sore thumb. I have also failed to notice any great premium for slabbed coins in the UK where a substantial proportion of collectors are only vaguely aware of what a slab is and what it does. I think we can lose sight of the fact that as regular contributors to this board, coins are a way of life rather than a pleasant and undemanding pastime.

Finally, my recollection of how the rainbow toning thing in America came about was that Jim Halperin noticed that a batch of Morgan dollars which had been in the shop window for some months were just showing the first signs of said rainbow colouring. I have to say though that when I have tried leaving coins on the window sill for an extended period, nothing happens. But then we don't get California strength sun here. Whatever, done this way it is going to be a long process and I wonder how many collectors have got the patience...?

[Peter 615]

Hi Dereck

I would love to see a grading book go back to covering all machine/milled coins.

I realise copper will be an intense task bearing in mind workman ship and corrosion issues. I'm sure Chris has mentioned doing the same

with Collectors Coins GB.

A lot of raw material could be available from forum members.

Now varieties would be another subject.

[Coinery 926]

Is Scottish Money a moderator here? I didn't know that!

No apologies needed whatsoever on my account!

[Peckris 579]

Hi Dereck

I would love to see a grading book go back to covering all machine/milled coins.

I realise copper will be an intense task bearing in mind workman ship and corrosion issues. I'm sure Chris has mentioned doing the same

with Collectors Coins GB.

A lot of raw material could be available from forum members.

Now varieties would be another subject.

Actually, it wouldn't be such a huge task as machine-age milled. You've basically got two Britannia designs from 1672 to 1775, so the copper reverses could be covered in two spreads (early milled "only" needs to up to EF I'd have thought). The silver is equally easy, as you basically have the same reverse for crowns down to sixpence for the same era, and only need to add in roses and plumes, so that's three spreads max. Obverses might be a bit trickier, but the subtler differences in William III and Anne don't really need their own grading guide, nor do 'LIMA', 'VIGO' and 'E'(dinburgh). The really difficult task would be George III obverses, which outnumber pretty much all other monarchs combined.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Canna imagine someone or someones getting so kerfuffled about TPG's that they resort to some of the name calling, the foul invectives, and discussion of racial epithets. Just sayin'.

I think you also seem to be getting the wrong Impression of why i exploded scottishmoney. I will explain, but before i do, i also noticed you've deleted my comment on this thread from last night. This Explosion was nothing to do what so ever with this thread and American TPGs, it was to do with FACT that the American poster has been Digging HIS CLAWS into me for the past 2 weeks which you can see from several threads such as "toned coins" thread and another. Now when you start deleting my comments and not looking at the cause then i think its getting a little one sided don't you? As is Aid in my deleted comment, i'll make my apologies to the forum for my outburst but not to the poster who Sees fit to continually goad me about my opinion (which is a perfectly good opinion) although according to him, my opinion does'nt really count as you can see from the beginning of this topic

I deleted another of your posts yesterday evening too, azda! I've also tidied up some language. I know you get very passionate about coin related things, and I know that you're harmless and entitled to your opinion, but your language and the fact you were getting personal towards the American gentleman was not acceptable.

You will tend to find in life that your opinion counts for less when you start being confrontational and using naughty words in posts littered with awful typos. Bloody behave.

Ski, I know your post about your Indian uncle and French brother in law was tongue-in-cheek, casting you in a non-rascist man of the world kind of light. However, it had too many thinly disguised naughty words in it, so that too has been removed.

Lets just forget about it all and be friends please.

[ski 1]

^{My apologies for any offence caused by my post and the wording used, and thank you for removing and preventing any further offence by anyone reading it.}

^Ski

[scottishmoney 18]

Is Scottish Money a moderator here? I didn't know that!

No apologies needed whatsoever on my account!

An' me avatar is wee better lookin' 'han yours twa.

[Coinery 926]

Is Scottish Money a moderator here? I didn't know that!

No apologies needed whatsoever on my account!

An' me avatar is wee better lookin' 'han yours twa.

Hah, indeed! Ole Liz does at times look like she could take your arms off I do confess!

[azda 973]

Chris, as i wrote in my previous post. It's Been the American gentleman who is getting confrontational. His 21 days here has been littered with posts having a dig at me and on this thread where i'm told my advice is "i'll-informed to his well-informed opinion" was the starw that broke the camels back.

In every thread i've so far commented on in the past few weeks there has been an underlying goading from him and if you look again at the ebay laughs thread he's again commented. So for this reason i've decided to leave the forum, i cannot understand how you can say i'm confrontational, i've used potty language but this has been after several weeks of his underlying problem with me with commemts like "i'm always negative" and "i'll-informed advice"

I did apologies to the forum, but not to that ass in question. Thanks for all the laughs and great info guys but i can't hang around while this idiot is on here or else i won't be able to keep my tongue quiet. Ciao

Edited November 27, 2013 by azda