Scanning And Photography

[Gary D 76]

ill need to give it a go once i get the whole taking a picture of the obverse and reverse to a decent quality down......which i still kind of suck at.

on a side note other apologies to sidetrack but i cant seem to find anywhere how the edge lettering is done wondered if someone knows?

from what ive read there is no definitive answer whether it is done before or during the striking of the faces?

if anyone knows anything i appreciate it

From memory (a talk by Rob I think) an edge lettering collar was invented by the French engraver Droz who introduced it to Boulton when he worked at the SOHO mint - that big 1792 2 sols I posted the other day in the Copper Coins thread has the edge inscription "DEPARTMENS DE PARIS. RHONE ET LOIRE. DU GARD. &" -

Scanning edges - a project to try!

Eeek! I seen to have acquired divinity with this post, a philosophic conundrum for self belief!

There are two main method of applying edge lettering.

The first method is the Castaing-machine, which consisted of two flat "edge dies", each with half of the final text for the lettered edge. The planchet was rolled between the two dies by hand (or mechanically), thus squeezing the lettering into the edge and upsetting the rims a bit on the planchet.

The 2nd method (as mentioned by davidrj) was that invented by Droz (and partially pilfered by Boulton) which consisted of a multi-part edge-collar-die. This contraption was far more complicated than the Castaing machine, as it required the edge collar pieces to retract after the coin had been struck so that the coin could be ejected. Coins struck with a multi-part edge-collar die are able to be distinguished from those created using the Castaing machine because there are almost always "seams" visible on the edge between the multiple sections of the edge collar.

Spanish portrait and pillar dollars used the Castaing method. Most if not all Conder tokens (18th Century British Provincial Tokens) were lettered using the Castaing method, as Droz's method was never brought to full fruition (too many moving parts?).

Many modern world coins struck for circulation with lettered edges are run through a Schuler Edge Lettering Machine (or equivalent) after they are struck in a smooth collar (i.e., the edge lettering is applied after striking). However, modern proof and specimen coinage struck at lower speeds may employ a Droz-type multi-piece edge collar for lettering -- but this method proved incompatible with the speed at which circulation strike coins were minted.

A good example of the two types would be the 1935 crown. The raised edge proof used the collar method and the incuse edge the other, hence the misplaced text resulting from the crown jumping during the lettering process.

[Coinery 926]

ive not read through the whole website seems like quite alot of jiggery stuff but might be of help to some?

zelda

I'm not sure if Numismatic Photography has much of a following of interested persons outside the USA, but Mark Goodman's book that you linked to is superb. I know of about two dozen or so of us semi-professional and professional numismatic photographers here in the USA, none of whom use scanners. There's a reason for that.

Will you PLEASE stop with all that. Some of us have no choice.

Yes, I'd be happy if things were toned down a little, or at least sensitive to the forum masses as a whole!

I think in the 'excitement' of the thread, we have become a little channelled and have forgotten, in this instance, at least, that not everyone can afford a decent set-up, or even have the privilege of photographing their collection even if they did!

This forum is made up of individuals who can afford 10's of thousands for a coin and, equally, just £10, we need to avoid becoming too elitist in our excitement!

I'm only griping coz I'm skint myself!

Com'on Scott bring us all down to earth!

Edited November 16, 2013 by Coinery

[azda 973]

We're probably all skint cos we collect coins

[shagreen 24]

Hello everyone, a different method for those with a smart phone is to use the camera function on macro setting and have a go I was surprised how reasonable the results were. You just need a reasonable hand, just make sure the antishake function is on.

[Peckris 579]

ive not read through the whole website seems like quite alot of jiggery stuff but might be of help to some?

zelda

I'm not sure if Numismatic Photography has much of a following of interested persons outside the USA, but Mark Goodman's book that you linked to is superb. I know of about two dozen or so of us semi-professional and professional numismatic photographers here in the USA, none of whom use scanners. There's a reason for that.

Will you PLEASE stop with all that. Some of us have no choice.

Yes, I'd be happy if things were toned down a little, or at least sensitive to the forum masses as a whole!

I think in the 'excitement' of the thread, we have become a little channelled and have forgotten, in this instance, at least, that not everyone can afford a decent set-up, or even have the privilege of photographing their collection even if they did!

This forum is made up of individuals who can afford 10's of thousands for a coin and, equally, just £10, we need to avoid becoming too elitist in our excitement!

I'm only griping coz I'm skint myself!

Com'on Scott bring us all down to earth!

Thanks. It's not only an equipment issue though...

[Gary D 76]

Hello everyone, a different method for those with a smart phone is to use the camera function on macro setting and have a go I was surprised how reasonable the results were. You just need a reasonable hand, just make sure the antishake function is on.

When on holiday this summer I was in an antique shop and there were a few coins. I didn't have a loop or magnifier with me so I just took a photo with my phone and enlarged it on the screen. It made what looked a good grade coin by eye look pretty grotty.

[TomGoodheart 373]

I've used both a scanner and camera. All of my earlier attempt were with the scanner, a cheap little thing that came with my pc package. My only complaint is that images are a little .. 'flat' and there's' no way to pick out highlights, beyond rotating the coin so the light hits at a different angle. The 'background in this case is just the inside of the lid of the scanner.. Example here:

However our latest printer (an Epson) wasn't as easy to set up and as we have a small point-and-shoot camera I tried that and was happy with the results. I used Paint to draw in the background because I think it looks better.

The advantage of a camera are that I can adjust the illumination. I shoot in bright daylight on my kitchen table, supporting the camera, which I set on macro, with nothing more than a coffee mug to avoid too much shake! But it takes quite a lot more time and effort than the scanner. In the end I guess it depends on your resources and what you want the photos for. Mine are really a record for insurance purposes so it's enough that you could tell my coin from another. Of course, it's brilliant that they are good enough to show off acquisitions too! But I wouldn't want to invest much more money or time just for that ...

Edited November 17, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[Peckris 579]

I know they are not the same coin, but somehow I much prefer the scanned example here.

[Peter 615]

Both images are great (against my ebay standard attempts)

I bought that little HK gizzmo but have yet to unpack it.(looks like a winner for stamps,ciggie cards and banknotes) but I was hoping for some dramatic results from other members with coins.

I tend to take on too much and never be happy and so have to do it all again (am I the only one...is this OCD?)

BTW my MG is 99% concours and Mr Peter has given me the green light for a decent motorbike.

I started picturing my collection in a logical fashion last Xmas....

Can't wait to continue

[jaggy 528]

I would suggest that an investment in a tripod would be worthwhile even for those who have relatively cheap cameras. Most cameras can be mounted on a tripod and you can pick one up pretty cheaply. Less than £20 will get you one. The advantage is that you can position the camera more exactly over the coin and reduce vibration to a minimum.

[Peckris 579]

Both images are great (against my ebay standard attempts)

I bought that little HK gizzmo but have yet to unpack it.(looks like a winner for stamps,ciggie cards and banknotes) but I was hoping for some dramatic results from other members with coins.

I tend to take on too much and never be happy and so have to do it all again (am I the only one...is this OCD?)

BTW my MG is 99% concours and Mr Peter has given me the green light for a decent motorbike.

I started picturing my collection in a logical fashion last Xmas....

Can't wait to continue

OMG. You mean... you're... you've... Oh well, none of my business after all.

[TomGoodheart 373]

I know they are not the same coin, but somehow I much prefer the scanned example here.

That's the scanner Peck. Here is an example with my newer printer scanner and while it's another coin I think it just lacks something in comparison with the earlier example. I think if you have a scanner that produces acceptable results, great. But I just don't seem to be able to find how to tweak the images to my satisfaction with this one.

[ChKy 61]

It depends on the capabilities of the used scanner I think...

I received a set of 2003 silver proof pattern a few days ago. Made some scans including the edge with five tiny hallmarks

[ChKy 61]

[ChKy 61]

[ChKy 61]

[Peckris 579]

I know they are not the same coin, but somehow I much prefer the scanned example here.

That's the scanner Peck. Here is an example with my newer printer scanner and while it's another coin I think it just lacks something in comparison with the earlier example. I think if you have a scanner that produces acceptable results, great. But I just don't seem to be able to find how to tweak the images to my satisfaction with this one.

xxxxxxx.jpg

Superb for detail, and would be ideal for a book illustration. But yes, the overall tone leaves something to be desired.

[brg5658 111]

I posted this thread on another coin forum about 6 months ago, and I thought a few here might also find it helpful/useful.

I have been photographing my coins for the past 4.5 or so years, and I have found that coin photography is a way to meld together two hobbies that I love. The first 2 to 2.5 years of the process were essentially experimental. I started with a Point and Shoot small Canon camera, and a couple desk lamps with incandescent bulbs. Early on, I also experimented with a light tent (also sometimes called a light box). I noticed improvement over the first 2 years, but I was still not happy with my final images after months of playing around.

About 2 years ago I was fed up, and wanted to figure out how to get professional quality coin images, but didnt really want to purchase a $1500 macro lens or a new camera. I stumbled upon a coin forum with its own Coin Photography sub-forum (this is quite rare among coin forums), and for the first 3-4 months I read every historical thread there related to set-ups, lighting, cameras, copy stands, etc. I finally jumped in and asked some questions, and soon thereafter I had a new way of imaging coins. I purchased a bellows and a couple enlarger lenses (about $90 and $40, respectively) and 3 little lamps from IKEA for $9.99 each (Jansjo lamps). I was seeing big strides in quality, and within 4 months of having this new set-up I was finally at a stage where I was happy with the images I was taking.

Ironically, one of the most frustrating and difficult components of coin photography for me (and I think for others) was lighting. I say ironically because this also happened to be the least expensive ingredient of the recipe. In my many months of experimentation, I had been doing a lot of things that seemed intuitive but were actually the opposite of what I should have been doing. While there is no magical advice I can give, and there is no replacement for trial and error (i.e., thousands of practice coin shots), I hope this little bit of advice is at least helpful to a few.

Firstly, I want to talk about diffusion of your light source. In essence, I encourage you to minimize diffused light or to avoid diffusion of your light source all together. Related to diffusion of light is the idea of angle of light source as compared to the coin. In the following schematic, I have defined the angle of the lamp with the pink arc on the left.

One of the keys to decent coin images is to keep this angle of your light source as high as possible (as close to 90 degrees, and as close to your lens as you can get without throwing reflection on the slab or coin). As the angle of your light source decreases, the more diffuse your light appears on the coin surface. You can see in the following set of images how the angle changes the look of the coin. I have shown the left light source, right light source, and both together. This shows how the two light sources at the standard 10-2 positions work together to light the coins surface.

.... continued in next post

[brg5658 111]

Photographically, a lower angle of light source manifests as a decrease in contrast between high points and low points on the coin, and the overall image appears flat and usually lifeless. In terms of the levels histogram (pictured below), you can see that as the angle of the light source decreases, the histogram becomes more compact. In other words, the range between the lightest part of your image and the darkest part of your image decreases. As the angle of your light source increases, the range of lightest and darkest part of the image is much wider.

...continued in next post

[brg5658 111]

The second part of lighting that I just want to touch on is the number of light sources. In all of the images above, I have used lights at the “standard” positions of 10 and 2 (this notation refers to the “clock positions” and is typical among photographers). Two light sources may not always be sufficient to fully light the coin’s surface. The coin I have depicted is about the size of a USA half dollar (~30 mm). You will note that there is a bit of a dark area at the bottom of the coin. In reality, when I am photographing coins larger than about the size of a USA quarter dollar, I generally use three light sources at positions 9-12-3. Some modification of these lighting positions may be necessary for coins with particularly high relief or with designs with devices that may look best if lit from behind or below. Below I show a schematic of the 10-2 and 9-12-13 lighting positions, and the same coin as above lit from a high angle with only 2 lights versus 3 lights.

I hope these illustrations have helped to describe how the lighting angle and number of lights can affect the final image quality. I will just emphasize again, there is no substitute for practice. Over the past 4 years, I have taken thousands (20,000+) images and variables like the metal content (silver, gold, brass, copper, etc.), the surface texture (matte, satin, lustrous, mirrored proof), and toning all modify the way I light a coin. Practice, practice, and practice some more.

Happy collecting (and photographing)!

-Brandon

[davidrj 194]

Thanks, lots to think about there

[Paulus 1,942]

Great stuff Brandon, what types of lamps do you prefer (or does this vary enormously also?)

[brg5658 111]

Great stuff Brandon, what types of lamps do you prefer (or does this vary enormously also?)

The lamps I've been using for about the last 2 years are the IKEA sourced "Jansjo" LED lamps. They require a little bit of diffusion (not a lot), but they have an incredibly small footprint, so you can even get them into tight working distance spaces. Here in the states they are $9.99 each -- looks like they are £10 each on your side of the pond.

http://www.ikea.com/gb/en/catalog/products/00169659/

[rpeddie 119]

regarding brightness for the lights are they pretty bright or more a dull light? if that makes any sense whatsoever

[Nick 325]

Nice illustrated tutorial, Brandon. Your setup is very similar to mine, although I use a single daylight CFT bulb mounted horizontally (so that using the clock analogy, it covers 11 o'clock to 1 o'clock).