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davidrj

Portcullis Varieties On Decimal Penny

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Declan was handing them out for 20thC varieties the last I checked, and Rob for everything else across the board!

I've got one from both of them! :D

Anoraks that is!

Courtesy Messrs Davies and Groom, of course, Stu - I just regurgitated it! Credit to those two...

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I must say Declan the descriptions for your eBay items are second to none! :) I do not routinely check them against Davies and Groom, even when I buy from you, I know they will be correct! :)

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Guest Carlos
On 24/09/2013 at 2:25 PM, just.me said:

Yes, the Two Pences also have different dies used on the currency, BU sets and Proofs.

From 1986 through to 1997 there are various obverse dies, L of Elizabeth to either left or right of bead, mostly the circulation pieces has the L of ELIZ to left of bead and the BU sets and proofs have the L to right of bead, there are a few I have found which go against the grain, 1987 proof L is to left of bead.

Up until 1988 the F of F:D: was to bead but in 1989 it is to space on both BU sets and Proof. It then changes again after that

2004 to 2008 BU sets have the T in TWO to space and the circulation issues have the T to a bead.

The same goes for the 5 Pences, 1988 1989 and 1990 all have different pointings

Small 5 Pences, I have obverse 1 as having I in ELIZ to left of bead and obverse 2 as having the I in ELIZ to space.

I have reverse A as having I of FIVE to left of bead and reverse 2 as having I of FIVE to right of bead

so far I have found

1990 and 1991 circul 2+B BU set 1+A

1992 circul 1+B BU set 1+A

1993 BU set and Proof 1+A

1994 > 1997 circul 2+B BU set 1+A

1998 to 2008 having the new obverse, all seemed consistent with the obverse dies, the reverses still differed, circulation having rev B and BU sets having rev A

10 Pences after 1982 seemed consistent as they were all BU set issues up until 1992 small version. The 1992 versions are listed in Chris's check your change book.

From 1993 to 1998 the circulation issues have the 1 in 10 pointing to a bead (reverse A). The BU sets, the 1 points to a space (reverse B ).

1998 sees a new obverse die and there are now 2 used again, obv 1 L of ELIZ to space and obverse 2, L of ELIZ to bead. Again there are still 2 reverses used.

I have found so far

1998 and 1999 BU set with 1+B

2000 > 2007 I found circulation as having 2+A and BU sets having 2+B

2008 both circulation and BU sets had 2+B

I liked the old designs a lot better than the shield types, but at least the shield types will have far less varieties and pointing differences having no teeth or beads :)

What is meant by "to left/right of bead" and "to space". 

I'm about to go through a load of 2p coins looking for rares, so am doing some research.

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15 minutes ago, Guest Carlos said:

What is meant by "to left/right of bead" and "to space". 

I'm about to go through a load of 2p coins looking for rares, so am doing some research.

The beads around the rim, for example an I in ELIZABETH might point directly to one of the beads in the rim, to the left or right slightly of a bead or in between 2 beads (to space)

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Guest Carlos
34 minutes ago, Nordle11 said:

The beads around the rim, for example an I in ELIZABETH might point directly to one of the beads in the rim, to the left or right slightly of a bead or in between 2 beads (to space)

Yeah that's what I thought, obvious really. But what put me in doubt was the thought that if something is to the left of a bead then it is also to the right of a bead, AND in fact to space. But your inclusion of the word "slightly" has shed some light. So it really is a very fine line, which would require very close inspection. I think it's enough of a chore going through every coin, but to look at a lot of them in that detail.. I'm not so sure whether it's worth the effort.

Thanks for your speedy answer, very much appreciated.

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I'm guessing that most of us do this type of examination via photographs or scans. You'd go mad trying it with a raw coin.

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Guest Carlos
4 hours ago, Guest Carlos said:

 

Would I be right in thinking that the coins from BU sets, mentioned here, would only be worth anything to anyone if they were in "brilliant" condition?

In fact, is it right that coins that werent meant for circulation, that have ended up in circulation, are no longer considered as uncirculated coins? (Sounds a silly question).

If I check through my 2p coins (all of which I have at some point received as change from a shop or bar) and I discover some of them to have come from the dies used for BU sets, is there any point in separating them from the ones from the standard currency/circulated dies? Or should I not bother checking them and send them to the bank with the rest?

 


 

 

20161001_195550.png

Screenshot_20161001-195515.png

20161001_195550.png

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Guest Carlos

:/

Not sure what happened with that last post, it decided to add things I didn't tell it to. Possessed.

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On 27/09/2013 at 9:05 PM, DaveG38 said:

OK, the survey is complete. 2118 pennies have been checked and here's the results:

1971 63 All type 1

1973 13 All type 1

1974 11 All type 1

1975 12 All type 1

1976 13 All type 1

1977 18 All type 1

1978 11 All type 1

1979 21 All type 1

1980 20 All type 1

1981 17 All type 1

1982 12 All type 1

1983 12 All type 1

1984 12 All type 1

1985 9 All type 1

1986 13 All type 1

1987 33 All type 1

1988 55 All type 1

1989 32 All type 1

1990 36 All type 1

1991 13 type 1 1 type 2

1992 31 type 2

1993 25 type 1 15 type 2

1994 40 type 1 42 type 2

1995 20 type 2

1996 51 type 2

1997 42 type 2

1998 74 type 2

1999 78 type 2

2000 93 type 2

2001 162 type 2

2002 62 type 2

2003 116 type 2

2004 90 type 2

2005 71 type 2

2006 56 type 2

2007 41 type 1 43 type 2

2008 30 type 1 1 type 2

2008 49 New Type

2009 84 New Type

2010 102 New Type

2011 91 New Type

2012 179 New Type

2013 2 New Type

Based on this, it looks like type 1 and 2 varieties occur for the years 1991, 1993, 1994, 2007 and 2008. If the numbers are to be believed, the 1991 type 2 is fairly scarce and the 2008 type 2 is rather rarer. One thing that was quite clear from this survey is that the quality of the strike varies considerably for both types. On type 1 reverses, there are many examples where the portcullis rivets are almost worn away, even where the coin still has lustre present. Similarly some of the type 2 reverses show nearly missing rivets, particularly on the left hand side. All in all, either there are many weakly struck specimens or, perhaps more likely, worn punches have been used leading to details not being struck up properly. The one exception to this was 2004, where I have found a coin without any sign of any rivets, and this specimen still retains much of it's lustre. I can't, in all honesty conclude that it is a weakly struck type 1 although I am pretty sure that it isn't a type 2, as there is no sign of any incuse cutting into the coin, where the rivets should be.

Hope you don't mind me rehashing this thread. I have literally in the past week and a half done a similar survey after emptying out my penny jar for the first time in about 2+ years. My findings almost mirror Dave's. For the 2008 I found out of 37 with Portcullis only 1 type 2 and for 2007 out of 46 there were 28 type 2 and 18 type 1, 1991 I didn't have many  but out of 8 found 1 type 2. The others are almost exactly the same ratio's. I also found 1 coin which had no sign of rivets, this time a 2007 still with good lustre. I have attached an image below. I am at present trying to put together a full set of decimal pennies from the circulation issues with good lustre..........a lot harder than I thought!!

 

So can we assume that the 2008 type 2 is actually quite a scarce variant?

2007 Penny with no rivets and good Lustre online.jpg

Edited by bhx7
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Well just spent another 6 hours going through over £40 worth of pennies before banking them for the kids group I run.

I have managed to find a few more anomalies.

Decimal Penny Variants

1992 – I found that there are 2 distinct reverse variants for this year

  • Rev a – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to right of a border bead

  • Rev b – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to leftt of a border bead

Out of 15 x 1992 pennies 5 were Rev a and 10 were Rev b

2000 – Again I found only 2 distinct variants for this year although I note that DaveG  found 3 in his survey done back in 2013.

  • Rev A – as 1999 penny the 1 of date points left of a border bead, P of Penny is to a gap between border beads.

  • Rev B – as 2001 penny the 1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead

Out of 94 x 2000 pennies 64 were Rev A and 30 Rev B

 

1994 – This date has the 2 reverse Portcullis types 1 & 2 but it is interesting to note that the type 1 has the legend the same as Rev a and the type 2 like Rev b of the 1992 penny.

For consistency out of 94 x 1994 pennies 50 were type 1 Portcullis and 44 type 2

More to look at and document as think there must be more varieties out  there..........

A few pics of the 1992 reverses. Sorry about the picture quality but it does show the differences OK.

..............also out of another 59 x Portcullis 2008 I found just 1 more Type 2

1992 Decimal Penny Rev a online.jpg

1992 Decimal Penny Rev b online.jpg

Edited by bhx7
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That's some good coining right there, Brian. Keep it going!

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Excellent work Brian. Must raid the Missus' penny jar B)

The beads on your 1s & Ps to the left & right look different sizes, have you counted them? I wonder if there are different numbers.

Love the "No Rivet" variety also, what is your thoughts, is it a worn/filled die or a different die altogether?  

Ian.. 

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45 minutes ago, Nutsaboutcoins said:

Excellent work Brian. Must raid the Missus' penny jar B)

The beads on your 1s & Ps to the left & right look different sizes, have you counted them? I wonder if there are different numbers.

Love the "No Rivet" variety also, what is your thoughts, is it a worn/filled die or a different die altogether?  

Ian.. 

Will count beads later today and give you results.

As for the no rivet variety not sure. It has good lustre so think it could be a filled die definitely not circulation wear. Just strange that it's all the rivets. Also if this is the case then there will be more out there. Its also strange to note that Dave G found one as well but dated 2004. 

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7 minutes ago, bhx7 said:

Will count beads later today and give you results.

As for the no rivet variety not sure. It has good lustre so think it could be a filled die definitely not circulation wear. Just strange that it's all the rivets. Also if this is the case then there will be more out there. Its also strange to note that Dave G found one as well but dated 2004. 

I do see just one rivet on the 2007

1.png

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1 hour ago, Nordle11 said:

I do see just one rivet on the 2007

1.png

Think that could be a speck from the cardboard 2x2 coin flip. Will have another look when I get home.:D

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Just checked Matt, it was a piece of fluff from the the flip. I do think is due to fill though as as Dave G stated in his post the quality across the board is not brilliant.

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1 minute ago, bhx7 said:

Just checked Matt, it was a piece of fluff from the the flip. I do think is due to fill though as as Dave G stated in his post the quality across the board is not brilliant.

He, funny place to land!

I'd go die wear too, unless you can find some design specs!

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15 hours ago, Nutsaboutcoins said:

Excellent work Brian. Must raid the Missus' penny jar B)

The beads on your 1s & Ps to the left & right look different sizes, have you counted them? I wonder if there are different numbers.

Love the "No Rivet" variety also, what is your thoughts, is it a worn/filled die or a different die altogether?  

Ian.. 

Just checked beads and as you suspected Ian, the 1992 pennies "Rev a" has 110 bb and "Rev b" has 113 bb. I am now about to photograph the other 2 coin dates which display these characteristic's and see if they are indeed the same.

 

***UPDATE**** Just checked and both the 1991 & 1994 penny variants both have the same bead counts as the 1992 but with the addition of the Portcullis Type 1 & Type 2 giving the combinations for both 1991 &94: Type 1(Rev a) & Type 2 (Rev b).

1993 still has the combination of Type 2 (Revb) but now the Type 1 is paired up with 1 & P both directly to a bead. Will check the bead count for the latter.

***UPDATE***** 1993 Portcullis Type 1 has only 109 border beads;

Edited by bhx7

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9 hours ago, bhx7 said:

Just checked beads and as you suspected Ian, the 1992 pennies "Rev a" has 110 bb and "Rev b" has 113 bb. I am now about to photograph the other 2 coin dates which display these characteristic's and see if they are indeed the same.

 

***UPDATE**** Just checked and both the 1991 & 1994 penny variants both have the same bead counts as the 1992 but with the addition of the Portcullis Type 1 & Type 2 giving the combinations for both 1991 &94: Type 1(Rev a) & Type 2 (Rev b).

1993 still has the combination of Type 2 (Revb) but now the Type 1 is paired up with 1 & P both directly to a bead. Will check the bead count for the latter.

***UPDATE***** 1993 Portcullis Type 1 has only 109 border beads;

Great work Brian.

But must say my brain is starting to hurt :wacko:

Also sorted all the pennies from the better half's copper jar last night...What have you started :)

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11 hours ago, bhx7 said:

Just checked beads and as you suspected Ian, the 1992 pennies "Rev a" has 110 bb and "Rev b" has 113 bb. I am now about to photograph the other 2 coin dates which display these characteristic's and see if they are indeed the same.

 

***UPDATE**** Just checked and both the 1991 & 1994 penny variants both have the same bead counts as the 1992 but with the addition of the Portcullis Type 1 & Type 2 giving the combinations for both 1991 &94: Type 1(Rev a) & Type 2 (Rev b).

1993 still has the combination of Type 2 (Revb) but now the Type 1 is paired up with 1 & P both directly to a bead. Will check the bead count for the latter.

***UPDATE***** 1993 Portcullis Type 1 has only 109 border beads;

Brian,

Based on what you have done (great stuff by the way) could you take my original list of variants and amend it in say red or blue for the changes/additions and then re-publish on here? That way we can see what's new. As has been said, its difficult to follow exactly what's going on without a simple chart/list to compare against.

Edited by DaveG38
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Will do Dave :D

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I have condensed the information from Dave's and my survey into the following:

1971-1984 – Second Portrait Obverse with all Type 1 Portcullis

1985-1990 – Third Portrait Obverse with all Type 1 Portcullis

1991 This date has the 2 reverse Portcullis types 1 & 2 but it is interesting to note that type 1 legend is the same as Rev a and the type 2 like Rev b of the 1992 penny.

1992 I found that there are 2 distinct reverse variants for this year

  • Rev a – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to right of a border bead (110BB)

  • Rev b – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead (113BB)

1993 - Has both reverse types of Portcullis but now differs in that Type 2 still pairs up with Rev b of the 1992 penny with 113 border beads; Type 1 now is placed with a legend which has only 109 border beads and were the 1 & P now both point directly to a border bead (as Rev B of the 2000 Penny). From the survey I also found one with the Portcullis link filled in this date.

1994 - As 1991 has both Portcullis types 1 & 2 were type 1 legend is the same as Rev a and the type 2 like Rev b of the 1992 penny.

1995-1999 – all have type 2 reverse with Rev b legend (1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead). 1998 Obverse changes to Forth Portrait.

2000 – Again I found only 2 distinct variants for this year although I note that DaveG found 3 in his survey done back in 2013. However both variants only have the Type 2 Portcullis.

  • Rev A – as 1999 penny the 1 of date points left of a border bead, P of Penny is to a gap between border beads. (113 BB)

  • Rev B – as 2001 penny the 1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead. (109 BB)

2001-2006 – all again have type 2 reverse but now with Rev B legend characteristics as the 2000 penny (1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead).

2007 – Has both reverse types of Portcullis both with Rev B.

2008 – Again has both reverse types of Portcullis with Rev B.

2008-2015 – New Shield Reverse; 2015 -onward Fifth Portrait Obverse.

I have not really studied the Shield reverse enough to see any new variants

although I do have a 2 ltr tub full, I have lost the will...........

 

Rarity

2008 - Out of 96 pennies only 2 had type 2 ( Daves: 30 type 1 1 type 2)

2000 - out of 94 pennies 64 were Rev A and 30 Rev B

1993 - out of 21 pennies only 7 had type 2 (Daves: 25 type 1 15 type 2)

1992 - out of 15 pennies 5 Rev a and 10 Rev b

1991 - Out of 14 pennies only 2 had type 2 (Daves: 13 type 1 1 type 2)

The other dates of 1994 & 2007 seem to be fairly even having almost the same ratio of type 1 & type 2, taken from both mine and Daves survey.

 

 

Edited by bhx7
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WOW Brian!

I have a number of pennies that have been saved over a number of years which I have just started sorting, I hope to add to the work above, but I'm under no illusion that I am "Standing on the shoulders of giants". or "late to the party" depending on your view :)

I cant help thinking if there are a number of reverse dies there must have been a number of obverse dies too :ph34r:

I feel in coming years people will be hunting down obverse & reverse die pairings.  

"I need a 1992 BHX -  D + 3"   

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Thanks Ian, but just continuing to add to the work that Dave started. Probably one of the best things about this Forum, everyone pitching in and making it possible to find new and interesting discoveries. whether people like Decimal coinage or hate it, it is definately a major collecting forum and will only grow in the future.

At the rate the coins are dissappearing in our change if we don't start cataloguing now we will lose all the variants and anomilies for the future.......

Obverse's I haven't even looked at.............think I will give myself a few weeks to let the eyes settle down:blink:

QUICK NOTE - the coins above are from circulation issues only. The reverse Type 2 actually makes its first appearance in the 1986 Unciculated & Proof sets.

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I THOUGHT I had found the 3rd 2000 variant that Dave was talking about but was wrong. I did however re look at the Rev A and found that it was actually the Rev b of 1992.

2000 All with Portcullis 2

  • Rev b – as 1992 penny 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead (113BB)
  • Rev c – as 2001 penny the 1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead. (109 BB)

This then makes more sense to renamed Rev B to Rev c for continuity. I will post Rev a, b and c showing the differences later.

 So the list should now read as follows:

1971-1984 – Second Portrait Obverse with all Type 1 Portcullis

1985-1990 – Third Portrait Obverse with all Type 1 Portcullis

1991 This date has the 2 reverse Portcullis types 1 & 2 but it is interesting to note that type 1 legend is the same as Rev a and the type 2 like Rev b of the 1992 penny.

1992 I found that there are 2 distinct reverse variants for this year

  • Rev a – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to right of a border bead (110BB)

  • Rev b – 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead (113BB)

1993 - Has both reverse types of Portcullis but now differs in that Type 2 still pairs up with Rev b of the 1992 penny with 113 border beads; Type 1 now is placed with a legend which has only 109 border beads and were the 1 & P now both point directly to a border bead (as Rev c of the 2000 Penny). From the survey I also found one with the Portcullis link filled in this date.

1994 - As 1991 has both Portcullis types 1 & 2 were type 1 legend is the same as Rev a and the type 2 like Rev b of the 1992 penny.

1995-1999 – all have type 2 reverse with Rev b legend (1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead). 1998 Obverse changes to Forth Portrait.

2000 – Again I found only 2 distinct variants for this year although I note that DaveG found 3 in his survey done back in 2013. However both variants only have the Type 2 Portcullis.

  • Rev b –  as 1992 penny 1 of date and P of PENNY are both to left of a border bead (113BB)

  • Rev c– as 2001 penny the 1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead. (109 BB)

2001-2006 – all again have type 2 reverse but now with Rev c legend characteristics as the 2000 penny (1 of date and P of Penny both point to a border bead).

2007 – Has both reverse types of Portcullis both with Rev c.

2008 – Again has both reverse types of Portcullis with Rev c.

 

HOPE THAT IS CLEARER........ Thanks allRev a reverse online.jpg

Rev b reverse online.jpgType c reverse online.jpg

Edited by bhx7
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