Importation Vat on numismatic coins into the UK is not 20% !

[Horsa 0]

Firstly let me state that:

I withhold all rights to the following personal correspondence and evidence that I will be posting in this thread and do not allow it to be copied and pasted onto any other website or forums without express permission, If this site have any clauses saying that they own all information posted on its website like face book! I hereby nullify these clauses. If this should be a problem please inform me and I will remove this thread and post it on another website where I am currently trading

If anyone would like to spread the word on the web and use my personal evidence I would only ask that you inform me beforehand so that I don’t double post and also that you link it back to my shop and this forum.

Please message me beforehand!

Here it is:

Over the last 4 months I have been arguing a point of law with government bodies over the amount of vat charged on my imported coins into the UK, if any of you have ever imported legal tender coins like the American eagle or maple leaf into the UK then you will have no doubt had to pay 20% vat before you were allowed to take them home!

If you have not imported them but just brought them from a bullion dealer then you should have noticed that they have passed the 20% vat on to you,

Over the next 3 to 6 months this will no longer be the case when the vat will be dropped to 5% as soon as the UK border force follows the rule of law and implements it’s classifications correctly.

Short back history:

Initially I had a hard time dealing with HMRC trying to argue and explain my case ( most of them had no idea what I was talking about ) but eventually I was passed on to the technical manager ( this gentleman makes the classifications on products imported into the UK and decides what rate of vat is applicable),

I cannot express my admiration and respect for this civil servant, who reinstalled my belief in government employees.

His dedication to being honest, fair and following the rule of law made me proud to be British and I wish we had more people like him in government departments.

I will not ramble on here anymore but will instead post my parliamentary complaint letter below in the next section with the attached information that I sent with the complaint following in the sections afterwards ( some personal details have been omitted).

At this moment in time it will most probably still take a while for the UK border force to stop overcharging vat and also for the bullion dealers to stop passing the 20% vat onto your purchases in the UK but should you be importing coins then make sure you download the BOR286 form and demand a refund, it might take 6 months for the cheque to arrive but it’s your money so go get it!

Please keep a look out on my central thread for future investigations that I will be posting.

http://forums.ebid.net/showthread.ph...83#post1536983

Most are boring as hell but I would hope informative.

Sincerely Martin

[Horsa 0]

From: martin (name removed) (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk)

Sent: 05 June 2013 13:08:22

To: mark.harper.mp@parliament.uk (mark.harper.mp@parliament.uk)

Cc: Freedom.Informationteam@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk (freedom.informationteam@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk); public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk (public.enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk)

Martin

(PERSONAL INFO REMOVED)

Dear Mark Harper,

Sir Charles Montgomery

Parliamentary ombudsman

Dear Gentlemen,

I would hereby like to make a parliamentary complaint against the UK Border agency, in particular the Langley Depot who in my experience are not following their own directives / procedures correctly and are not following the rule of law.

This complaint concerns the vat rate charge on numismatic collector’s items imported into the UK and questions why the border agency is ignoring Customs Declaration numbers and classifications and thereby overcharging vat at 20% rather than charging the correct rate of 5%.

My experience Started on the 16th of March this year when I imported 3 parcels over a month long period, and is still ongoing!

I will not go into too much detail here as I have attached various email correspondence and scanned letters into this email and will make reference to them as I go along.

Point 1; what is the correct Vat rate to be applied to numismatic collectables imported into the UK?

Please see attached word document named “Responses to complaint from HMRC” As you will see the 2 emails copied and pasted into this word document make it perfectly clear that my coins should have been charged vat at a 5% rate and not at a 20% rate.

Point 2; what happens when you complain to the UK border force about being overcharged vat and try to get a refund?

Please see my original complaint email sent to the UKBA on the 11th of April under attached word file

“My complaint email to UKBA and auto reply’s “

Now obviously upon sending my complaint as instructed by HMRC I received a confirmation email from the UKBA within minutes, what’s however surprising is that I received a second confirmation email on the 18th of April again for no apparent reason! And replied again! None of this has any relevance as UKBA failed in both cases to reply to my complaint within the 20 days guideline.

Point 3; how things stand at this moment in time!

As a British subject my only direct line of communication to the UKBA is through their Email complaint system, which they are obviously ignoring!!

My only other option is to ring HMRC and ask them to try and contact UKBA on my behalf.

Which HMRC have done on multiple occasions!, thanks in large part to their involvement UKBA have finally acted upon my complaint and I have received 3 letters concerning my 3 packages, telling me that I can expect refunds within a 30 day period. Please view one example of these letters attached under the names “Border agency letter page 1, 2, 3).

HMRC has also tried to explain to me what the problems are and why this over charging of vat is occurring!

Reasons given were a massive backlog in claims like mine due to UKBA overcharging people, UKBA being understaffed apparently as little as 2 to 4 people having to deal with imported parcel checks, complaints and communications.

Apparent confusion over the chip system, lack of training etc

Now while I may have sympathy with them if this is the case. I in no way feel that this can justify how this agency is currently operating!

The fact is if I was not so pig headed and had not the help of the wonderful civil service provided my HMRC I would still be sitting here waiting for any kind of response to my complaints.

The only reason I now have letters telling me that my refund will eventually be paid is because of HMRC convincing the border force to move my refund requests to the top of the queue as they are still dealing with complaints/ refunds going back to the beginning of January, bearing in mind that they officially have to deal with Bor286 refund requests within a four to eight week period! It’s obvious that I would most probably have at least another 4 month long wait ahead of me.

Point 4; let me sum up for you how the UK Border force is currently operating:

1, they are ignoring classification codes on the customs declarations! And overcharging vat on vast amounts of the imports into the UK of the British population.

2, they are ignoring directives sent out to them on the correct amount of vat to charge on numismatic imports into the UK, issued to them by HMRC.

3, they have made themselves unaccountable and unreachable to the general public,

3a, they do not respond to email complaints within the 20 day period! (They do not respond at all unless a member of HMRC forwards your complaint letter on to them for you and even then they do not give any answers to your questions, they just pay up at their own leisure!)

3b, they do not respond to bor286 refund applications within the 4 to 8 week period! (Same reason as mentioned above and as a side note this 4 to 8 week period seems to have now disappeared from the website, there is no stated time mentioned now as to how long you can expect to wait for a response to a bor286 refund request)

3d, they are only contactable by phone though HMRC and this time limit has now been restricted from 10am to 2pm! (Whereby you can hear how you are to send in a bor286 or email them a complaint, neither of which they feel the need to respond to)

So after months of me writing emails, filling in forms and making phone calls all at my own expense in time and money and all of which could have easily been corrected by the UKBA!

I’ve come to the conclusion that the massive backlog of complaints and refunds that are apparently causing the UKBA such huge problems are caused by one of 2 things!

Either they are completely incompetent and not fit for purpose and are now due to the massive amount of internal problems that they themselves have caused hiding themselves away from the big bad world!

I.e. no longer want to come out to play! While all the time clicking their heels and crying there’s no place like home!

Or

They are deliberately overcharging and defrauding the general public, while doing everything in their power to make sure that it’s virtually impossible for people to get a refund without jumping through a thousand hoops and waiting about 6 months.

I suspect the internal policy is: overcharge immediately and then make the individual suffer so much and for so long that they just give in or never complain again! While all the time playing dumb, being vague and never ever giving any information out.

In short even if they have to refund a small percentage of citizens like me, the vast majority will never know and most of those that question it will give in over time due to the lack of information provided!

In my eyes this is a deliberate and fraudulent policy! Because I can’t believe that it can be this hard to either correct the system (if this is the problem because the classification code is in the chip system already) or to train 4 people how to use it correctly! ( surely any manager worth his salt could say! hey guys this classification code 9705000000 is found here and is 5% vat, stop ignoring it on the customs declaration and imputing / selecting whatever you feel like! )

Because on all 3 of my parcels this code was ignored and 3 different codes were input, and I mean completely different even to each other).

Now I’m sure we can all agree that this kind of behaviour is not acceptable and I look forward to hearing from you how this is going to change! And what steps are going to be undertaken to help those who are going through the same treatment as I have been through to get the money that they are owed !

But more importantly to me is how the border force is going to implement changes to stop this overcharging of vat in the future.

Because if they feel the backlog that they have caused now is a problem then I can’t wait to see how they deal with the backlog, when I increase it 10 fold by informing the General public through social media and the media in general of their illegal activity and tell everyone how to get their money back.

In my personal opinion what the UKBA is doing is breaking the law under the mistaken assumption that they are above it! Due to them being unaccountable and unreachable by the UK public!

It is also my personal opinion that this cannot carry on because it is Leading to fundamental problems in the service that they provide “massive backlogs, unreachable guidelines & response times, and knock on effects to other services like HMRC, who in all of this have been absolutely brilliant in trying to resolve this problem !

I sincerely look forward to hearing your reply and to hearing that UKBA will from here on follow the rule of law, implement the changes and nip this problem that they themselves are causing in the bud.

So that we can all move on with our life’s and concentrate on more important things.

Yours Sincerely

Martin (NAME REMOVED)

[Horsa 0]

Response to My complaint from HMRC: This is the confirmation from HMRC that a 5% vat rate is applicable!

complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk (complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk)

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17/05/2013

To: (name removed)hotmail.co.uk

From: complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk You moved this message to its current location.

Sent: 17 May 2013 13:15:41

To: (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk

Dear Mr (Name removed),

Following your complaint regarding charges applied to the import of coins via ParcelForce International I will attempt to clarify some of the common issues and questions which arise in this area. From our discussions you are already aware of most (if not all) of this information but feel your complaint should receive a written response for the sake of completeness.

Goods imported to the UK from outside the EU are subject to payment of import duties and VAT where applicable in order that they may be considered to be in free circulation in the UK. Duty is charged on goods valued over £135 but is waived if amount is calculated to be less than £9. VAT is charged on goods valued over £15 at the rate applicable to similar goods sold in the UK.

Duty is charged on the cost of goods, plus shipping costs and insurance. VAT is charged on cost of good, plus shipping and insurance plus duty.

The amount of customs duty charged will depend on the type of goods imported and the value stated on the customs declaration. The percentage will depend on the type of goods and sometimes the country from which they are imported.

As the Channel Islands are within the Customs Territory of the EU no duty is charged on imports however there is no relief from VAT as the Islands are not within the EU Fiscal Union.

Dependant on package size the UK Border Agency (UKBA) examines packages imported by post at either the ParcelForce Hub at Coventry or the Royal Mail Mount Pleasant Mail Centre. UKBA also check the customs declaration to determine if customs duty and import VAT is chargeable.

Rates of duty in the UK are contained in the Integrated Tariff of the United Kingdom (Tariff) in which goods are described using an international harmonised system maintained by the World Customs Organisation. The system is based on a numerical code built up in various stages beginning with the basic commodity. Further levels of sub-categorisation typically lead to a 10 digit code which allows goods to be identified internationally.

The complexity of this categorisation process is what generally causes difficulty for UKBA staff as packages usually contain a written description of goods which they must interpret in order to ascertain whether duty is due. This same description will also be used to ascertain whether VAT is due.

At a top level, coins may be classed as items made from silver/gold which can include coins (chapter 7106), or coins made from silver/gold (chapter 7118). Further levels of exclusion and clarification should arrive at the correct classification - though from a keyword on a label or visual inspection of goods it is not a simple task. In either of these cases no duty is listed as "free" but VAT is set at the Standard Rate.

An added complication for coin collectors, is that the UK allows collectors' items to be imported at a reduced valuation which leads to an effective rate of VAT of 5%. Items of numismatic interest are included in the description of collectors' items. Collector's Items are separately category in the tariff and are also free from Customs Duty.

Coins whose value as a collectors' piece is greater than the legal monetary value would fall into the above category.

There has been an increase in the postal import of coins in recent months and having spoken to colleagues at the Hub it is clear that the incorrect classification of coins is of concern for importers and also for UKBA as claims for refund have caused a backlog of work. UKBA at the Hub are working with their Policy Unit to seek a remedy to this issue.

During our conversation we discussed whether dealing in coins should be exempt from VAT. There is an exemption within Group 5 of Schedule 9 to the VAT Act 1994 which exempts amongst other things "dealing with money". We regularly receive calls to the VAT Helpline requesting whether coins such as the Canadian Maple Leaf and US Silver Eagles qualify for the exemption because the coins are legal tender. Their purchase or sale appears to meet the description of "dealing with money".

What is often missed is Note 2 to Group 5 which excludes the supply of coins or banknotes as collectors' pieces or investment article from the exemptions in Group 5

Coins such as the silver eagle bear a face value at which they may be used as legal tender, however their intrinsic value is much greater. The valuation of individual coins varies according to a number of factors such as condition and year of mint which is an indicator in common with other collectors' item which are desirable for reasons beyond their face-value.

Certain types of coin are often used as a store of wealth during times of inflation and the supply of coins for this purpose -which again typically takes place above face-value would exclude the transaction from the exemption.

Obviously I am not expert on the world of coins and may have over-simplified what is probably a very complex field but I trust this clarifies why such coins are subject to VAT on import to the UK.

If you require further clarification please let me know

Regards

Ian

The information in this e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may be subject to legal professional privilege. Unless you are the intended recipient or his/her representative you are not authorised to, and must not, read, copy, distribute, use or retain this message or any part of it. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately.

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The Commissioners for HM Revenue and Customs are not liable for any personal views of the sender.

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• Complaint [Protective Marking: PROTECT]‏

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complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk (complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk)

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17/05/2013

To: (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk

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From: complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk You moved this message to its current location.

Sent: 17 May 2013 13:53:21

To: (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk

Dear Mr (name removed)

To clarify my earlier e-mail regarding the VAT applicable on the import

of coins from the Channel Islands or from outside the EU.

Coins which are of numismatic interest are classed as collectors' items.

Such items are classified within the harmonised system with commodity

code 9705 00 00 00.

The effective VAT applicable to these coins at import is 5%.

I would class coins as of numismatic interest where they are traded at a

value greater than the face-value as legal tender with the price

dependant on factors such as condition and year of manufacture amongst

others things.

Coins such the Britannia Silver Coin, Canadian Silver Maple Leaf and US

Silver Eagle Coin recently imported by you are collectors' pieces and as

such VAT at import would be 5%

Apologies if this information was unclear in my earlier email

Regards

Ian

The information in this e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may be subject to legal professional privilege. Unless you are the intended recipient or his/her representative you are not authorised to, and must not, read, copy, distribute, use or retain this message or any part of it. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender immediately.

HM Revenue & Customs computer systems will be monitored and communications carried on them recorded, to secure the effective operation of the system and for lawful purposes.

The Commissioners for HM Revenue and Customs are not liable for any personal views of the sender.

This e-mail may have been intercepted and its information altered.

The original of this email was scanned for viruses by the Government Secure Intranet virus scanning service supplied by Vodafone in partnership with Symantec. (CCTM Certificate Number 2009/09/0052.) On leaving the GSi this email was certified virus free.

Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes.

[Horsa 0]

my original complaint letter to UKBA and autoreplys

From: martin (NAME REMOVED) [mailto: (NAME REMOVED)@hotmail.co.uk]

Sent: 11 April 2013 15:21

To: UKBA Customer Complaints

Subject: MARTIN (NAME REMOVED) - FP

Dear sir/ Madam,

I find myself completely frustrated due in large part to your inability to charge the correct vat amount on my parcels coming into the UK.

My first parcel arrived on the 16th of March and was charged at the rate of 20% even though it should have only been charged the correct amount of 5% vat! reference number Ar535182112GB = £90 vat and £8 postal holding fee ( the vat should only have been £13.50 )

Immediately after collecting this parcel I rang HMRC & customs and spent nearly 2 hours talking to various individuals until I eventually got a call back from Ian (NAME REMOVED)( phone call ref: BUJ58951 ), he informed me that I had indeed been overcharged and told me to make sure that my supplier used the import reference of 9705000000 for any future imports of numismatic collector’s items, he also informed me to fill in the BOR286 form in order to get a refund which I then did, this was received by you on the 22nd of march.

I therefore consigned myself to waiting the 4 to 8 weeks for my refund in the knowledge that this would no longer be a problem for me with future parcels.

Sadly this is not the case!!

This morning I received a postal card saying I had to pay £117.20 on my second parcel in order to pick it up from the local post office (Ref: AR535169014GB ), I immediately understood that I had again been overcharged 20% vat and rang HMRC & customs to find out why I was being overcharged again,

the gentleman I spoke to looked up the reference on the system and said that there was no import ref number on the customs declaration only a note saying samples ( this was wrong as you can see from the attached scans included in this email that the code 9705000000 is CLEARLY VISIBLE ) not knowing this I went to the post office and explained the situation and asked if I could see the customs declaration before paying for the parcel, to see for myself whether the code was on the customs declaration or not and was told I would have to pay for it first but that I could then ring up the customer service department of the postal office with the receipt and explain the situation and possibly get a refund.

On returning home I rang them up and was told that they could naturally do nothing as it was customs that charged the vat.

So again I rang HMRC & customs and spoke to Donna (phone call ref: BWU77124 )

this lady was very helpful and informed me that sadly due to the misinformation given to me earlier that morning that there was very little that she could do! the normal procedure as this was explained to me by her is this:

That I should have rang HMRC and complained about being overcharged again so that she could then contact you, to get you to request the return of the paperwork from the post office so that you could then send out the correct paperwork with the correct vat rate.

So basically if I understand this correctly that due to one of your employee's at the Langley Depot either not paying attention or just not caring about the CLEARLY VISIBLE customs declaration ref Number, that If a vat mistake arises a person like myself has no way of knowing what went wrong due to the misinformation that he is provided by HMRC and postal services until he pays for the parcel and see's for himself!

but by doing so he has given up his rights to contest your employee's mistake by being forced into paying for it first.

This reminds me of a catch 22 and is completely unacceptable.

The only other option I would have had! if only I had received the correct advise would be to then ring HMRC, contest it and the possibly wait another week before picking the parcel up.

Further to this apparently your employee not only would have had to ignore the customs ref number but would have had to log it on as a different reference number for it to have been charged at 20% rather than the correct amount of 5% vat.

Which leaves the question as to why he deliberately went out of his way to overcharge me on the vat?

It seems pretty clear to me that something is seriously wrong here and completely unfair !

I have spent hours of my time making sure that I have done everything correctly and made sure that my imported numismatic collector’s items had the correct customs declaration and reference number only to find out that your employee’s completely ignore it or deliberately overcharge me, leaving me out of pocket to the sum of £169.32 for the period of 4 to 8 weeks while I wait for a refund, also with a third parcel to arrive next week I fear this sum will only rise and I cannot accept this!.

Donna also informed me that you do have it in your power to refund me my money much sooner which is why she gave me this email address to which I could formulate my complaint.

So Basically I would like to ask you 2 things:

1, Could you please look into the obvious mistake and give me a refund, because I seriously don’t think I should have to fill in another BOR286 and wait 8 weeks for a refund due to the mistakes made by your employee’s at the Langley depot

2, Could you please explain to me what went wrong ? am I to expect this overcharging of vat on every parcel I receive ? because in all honesty after doing everything right only to find myself spending hours clearing up other peoples mess either due to them not paying attention or just not understanding their own reference numbers I'm beginning to think I might as well spent a few hours forcing you each and every time to correct your paperwork before I pick my parcels up and making sure that everyone at the BNTA ( the British numismatic Trade association ) and various other clubs/ forums of which I am a member know exactly what the procedure is.

Which will in no doubt annoy everyone; you will have a lot more phone calls and paperwork and were have to wait 3 to 4 more days before collecting our parcels until import ref number: 9705000000 is charged at the correct rate of 5% vat by your employee's.

Sincerely living in hope but will probably die in despair

Martin (NAME REMOVED)

Tel : number removed

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UKBA Customer Complaints (UKBACust1568@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk)

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18/04/2013

To: 'martin (REMOVED)'

From: UKBA Customer Complaints (UKBACust1568@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk) You moved this message to its current location.

Sent: 18 April 2013 15:52:21

To: 'martin (Removed)' (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk)

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email.

If your e-mail is a complaint about a service provided by the UK Border Agency or UK Border Force, or the conduct of our staff, we will ensure that the matter is properly investigated. Unfortunately, with the details you have provided we are unable to find the information relevant to your case.

Please provide as much of the following information about yourself as possible, along with details of your complaint, and return it by email to us at UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk .

Full Postal Address:

Contact Telephone Number:

Parcel Tracking Number e.g. EC123456789GB:

We will aim to reply to you within 20 working days.

You can find further information on our website about how we will deal with your complaint by using the following link: http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/ab...yourcomplaint/

Thank you

Complaints Allocation Hub

Customer Direct

Customer Service Improvement Directorate

Home Office

11th floor Lunar House, 40 Wellesley Road, Croydon, CR9 2BY

Web: www.UKBACustomerComplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

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• MARTIN (name removed) - FP‏

•

martin

18/04/2013

To: UKBA Customer Complaints

From: martin (removed) (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk)

Sent: 18 April 2013 17:54:44

To: UKBA Customer Complaints (ukbacust1568@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk)

Is this a joke ?? OBVIOUSLY YOU DID NOT READ THE MESSAGE I SENT!!! if you had you would see that there are 2 parcel reference numbers included and 2 phone call ref numbers

Dear sir/ Madam,

( I DON'T HAVE THE SPACE TO PASTE THE ENTIRE MESSAGE HERE AGAIN BUT ITS JUST THE SAME EMAIL THAT I SENT AS ABOVE )

[Horsa 0]

OK i worked it out! i just had to change the size of the JPEGs

have added the confirmation letter from ukba telling me that i will receive a refund however i cant seem to upload the scan of the cheque

here's the link

http://forums.ebid.net/showthread.php?167858-Silvertraders-topics-%28-Importation-Vat-on-numismatic-coins-into-the-UK-is-not-20-!-%29

that's me done here guys if you have any questions feel free to ask

sincerely Martin

[Peter 615]

Mr no brain cse grade 5 have tried to charge me VAT on a 400 year old coin.I explained their system.Some twat on 15k isn't going to be the sharpest tool in the shed....but a tool all the same.

[Gary1000 41]

Mr no brain cse grade 5 have tried to charge me VAT on a 400 year old coin.I explained their system.Some twat on 15k isn't going to be the sharpest tool in the shed....but a tool all the same.

Although I don't import coins very often it's only been since last year that they have been charging 20%, previous to that I had only been charged 5%. I assumed they had a new batch of monkeys arrive. I don't know what if any linkup there is between Parcelforce and customs but the fee is on a sliding scale so the greater the VAT/Duty the bigger the fee.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Interesting stuff Martin. Like you, I was aware of the 5% vat banding, but I don't get many coins from overseas and so far haven't been clobbered much.

Where I have however, it has been the Post Office handling charge that has most annoyed me as it was disproportionate to the amount of duty I needed to pay. In retrospect I probably didn't need to pay duty, but seem to remember it was under £2 which I didn't really mind. However the PO charge was about £8.

My problem is that while presumably the form you mentioned would allow me to reclaim (or have adjusted) the duty, I'm not sure if it's possible to challenge the PO collection charges. It seems to me that, as you've observed, it's a bit of a Catch 22. You can't have the item without paying the fee, but unless the PO is prepared to allow you to inspect the item, hold on to it while you challenge the charges it's difficult to query the duty levied. And you risk your item(s) being returned to the sender as uncollected if the process takes too long. So the temptation is just to pay up.

I suspect that if HMRC had to refund the PO handling fee as well they might get the point. I don't think that's unfair since it's their mistake that it was levied!

Anyway, well done on pursuing this. Hopefully things will improve ... at least at that particular Depot!

Edited June 10, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[azda 973]

Fantastic stuff, but it should never have got this far in the first place. Overseas packages and VAT have cropped up on this Forum quite frequently this year. Hopefully those who intend to Import coins use the code provided by Martin in their correspondance with the sellers or overseas auction houses and pay the levy that is correct instead of 15% more which all adds to the cost of the coin.

Edited June 10, 2013 by azda

[Accumulator 52]

Great stuff, Martin. My last overseas coin came via Parcel Force. Fortunately HMRC applied the correct 5% rate. In that case they ignored the declaration on the outside, that the coin was of nominal value and opened the parcel to discover the invoice with the proper value detailed. They didn't open the packaging around the actual coin though.

[Horsa 0]

yeh its all a bit murky with royal mail £8 holding fee! sadly

if it was a courier you can then refuse to pay, ring hmrc and they will then ring uk border force and try to get them to change the paperwork.

there is a way to pay the vat before it arrives and i am looking into this ! so basically you pay in advance so there's no reason for royal mail to hold the parcel but it seems to be complicated and extremely annoying.

for me with importing the silver bullion/collectable coins its a big thing because mints tend to advertise themselves on the parcels and that gets slapped with 20% fee immediately lol

I thought i would just post this information here because i am a member but also due to the great work you guys do on collectable coins / pre decimal ones which i also trade in a little.

whenever i was not sure about something i posted here in the forum and always got help

plus a few of you are also members of the bnta and maybe this information is also useful to the coin collector community in general

basically I'm just spreading the word getting the info out there in the hope that ukba stop playing silly b..gers and just start charging 5% instead of breaking the law ( this wont affect the postage holding fee sadly )

anyway I'll keep you guys informed and feel free to visit my little shop

http://silvertrader.ebid.net/

i had to plug myself a little please forgive me but i think I've earned it

[Coinery 926]

yeh its all a bit murky with royal mail £8 holding fee! sadly

if it was a courier you can then refuse to pay, ring hmrc and they will then ring uk border force and try to get them to change the paperwork.

there is a way to pay the vat before it arrives and i am looking into this ! so basically you pay in advance so there's no reason for royal mail to hold the parcel but it seems to be complicated and extremely annoying.

for me with importing the silver bullion/collectable coins its a big thing because mints tend to advertise themselves on the parcels and that gets slapped with 20% fee immediately lol

I thought i would just post this information here because i am a member but also due to the great work you guys do on collectable coins / pre decimal ones which i also trade in a little.

whenever i was not sure about something i posted here in the forum and always got help

plus a few of you are also members of the bnta and maybe this information is also useful to the coin collector community in general

basically I'm just spreading the word getting the info out there in the hope that ukba stop playing silly b..gers and just start charging 5% instead of breaking the law ( this wont affect the postage holding fee sadly )

anyway I'll keep you guys informed and feel free to visit my little shop

http://silvertrader.ebid.net/

i had to plug myself a little please forgive me but i think I've earned it

I'd say you've earned, at the very least, a token visit to your site. I did have to do this in 2 reads, though!

edit: Royal Mail charged me a £9 handling fee on books!

Edited June 10, 2013 by Coinery

[Rob 3,000]

edit: Royal Mail charged me a £9 handling fee on books!

There's no VAT on books, so import duty? Wasn't aware of that and certainly hasn't happened to me before.

[Horsa 0]

2 reads for you mate but months of headbanging for me lol

yeh i think duty on anything over £36 pounds or something ( cant remember exactly )

i should have the response to my parliamentary complaint in no later then 2 weeks

So then i can move on to my next project hopefully

If you see anything you like matey let me know and I'll give a pre decimal discount

[Coinery 926]

edit: Royal Mail charged me a £9 handling fee on books!

There's no VAT on books, so import duty? Wasn't aware of that and certainly hasn't happened to me before.

I think somebody else on here said that! It was 4 horological books from the US!

[declanwmagee 122]

Ah Mr Silvertrader. I bought a lovely first effigy 1926 halfcrown from you not so very long ago.

And I got stung for £23 VAT the other day - my first ever one. That was 20% too, not 5%. 'Course I paid it and kept shtum like a twit.

[Rob 3,000]

I can feel a large HMRC bill coming on after the recent US sales.

[Horsa 0]

Hey declan

fancy meeting you here lol

well mate fill in a bor286 and send it off for a refund i would

[Paulus 1,942]

Hi Horsa, welcome along!

And I'm the guy you sold that 1695 crown to!

[Horsa 0]

Hallo mate,

well that's me busted

I don't know why i bothered opening an ebid shop all my customers seem to be here lol

I hope it was worth the wait for you paul

As you know my new project is annoying paypal ebay about its over the top fee's

for some reason paypal refuses to answer my questions about what legal right they have to withhold payment etc ( payment pending )

After this project is finished ( hmrc / ukba ) I'm going to send them a freedom of information request about it

just to see how the react

[Horsa 0]

Hey guys a little update on how things are going.

After speaking with HMRC and my supplier here's some new information.

Firstly: As this is new ( I've set a precedent ) everyone is waiting on the response from UKBA to my parliamentary complaint!

Basically at this moment in time i can import the coins and use this customs classification number, due to the responses that i have received in writing!

but because no one else has similar personal ( my name specific ) documentation they are unwilling to allow others to use this classification just yet due to possible legal ramifications.

This still means that i will most likely incur 20% vat again on my new order ( coming this week ) but obviously i can claim it back using the Bor286 refund request.

Everyone else can practically do the same regardless of the ref number used by writing in The bor286 that it should have been sent / delivered under the reference number 9705000000 and make a claim back as well, but don't go out of your way to order abroad just yet, only fill in this form and try it if you have already ordered abroad or already paid vat in the last month.

so until Ukba, Hmrc have had a chance to work it all out and implement this code correctly on the chip system that they use were just have to wait!

So give it 2 weeks tops for my parliamentary complaint to run its course and then hopefully they will have sorted this out and it will then be normal procedure and you won't have to go through this again.

The good news is this UKBA is caching up on their backlog they are currently at the end of February which means if you do send in a bor286 for a refund the waiting time is dropping.

Some other questions and answers:

1, which coins will this affect ? is it just the legal tender ones ( one's with a currency value )

Apparently no this will be silver coins in general that are brought on the basis of being collectable items due to designs. pictures, themes or wording.

2, How will this effect coins brought in the UK itself, so from bullion dealers or shops?

They will still be charged vat at 20% due to them being sold in the UK, basically vat rates apply at the point of sale so if you buy them in the uk they are subject to uk vat at the point of sale.

So this classification code can only be used by collectors buying from abroad.

Basically at this moment in time wait for things to work itself out and as soon as i know better i will post another update

thanks guys

[Horsa 0]

Hallo guys,

This is just a quick update as i have received a reply from the ukba!

Naturally things are still progressing and might take another week or 2 but i thought i would post their response

In regards to whats said in this reply from them i can not express my surprise at some of the explanations made by this person !!

Its as if she thinks i do not have scans and copy's of the customs declarations on hand to rip the excuses apart!

However its pretty clear that the 5% vat is not questioned in any way, it's just that they are trying to make excuses for why i was charged 20% in the first place. none of which hold up !

Also if you scroll up to my parliamentary complaint your notice that they have made absolutely no attempt to answer the important questions or mention how they are going to stop this from happening anymore!!

happy reading guys

[Horsa 0]

Border Force Complaints Team

Priory Court

St John’s Road

Dover

Kent CT17 9SH

Email borderforcecomplaints@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

Web www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk

Mr M >>>>>>>>>

Email: >>>>>>>>>>>>@hotmail.co.uk

Date 24 June 2013 Accredited to the Customer Service Excellence

standard

Our Ref 409>> and TO18>>>>4

Your Ref: AR5>>>>>>>GB, AD3>>>>>>>GB and AR53>>>>>>GB

Dear Mr >>>>>>>>

Thank you for your correspondence sent to the Border Force Complaints Team and to the Immigration Minister. This has been passed to me as the officer responsible for handling your complaint. Before I respond to your specific concerns regarding the above parcels, I would like to assure you all complaints about our staff and the level of service provided by Border Force are treated seriously. Furthermore, such complaints are used as an opportunity to learn and improve services.

If you believe your complaint has not been dealt with in the right way you may write to us at the address above and a complaints manager will check the process used to look into your complaint, to ensure it was both appropriate and followed correctly. You must do this within one month of the date of this letter.

In line with our usual procedures, which are set out in detail at http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/ab...kingacomplaint, I have asked the operational manager at the Coventry International Hub (CIH) to assess the circumstances relating to the matter you have complained about. With this work now complete, I have based my response on their findings. I hope my reply helps you to understand the reasons why.

Parcel reference, AR53>>>>>>>GB was correctly charged on 20% VAT at the time of import. I am therefore not upholding this particular aspect of your complaint. You advised Border Force the exporter had entered the wrong commodity code on the declaration. You provided further information received by CIH on 22 March 2013 substantiating this and enabled them to process a part refund for the sum of £67.50. The payment was processed on the 17 May 2013 and you should receive a payable order within 30 working days.

I am advised Parcel reference, AD3>>>>>>>GB was incorrectly charged on 20% VAT at the time of import despite a commodity code on the declaration to levy 5% VAT. I am upholding this element of your complaint and I am sorry for any inconvenience caused by this error. The further information received from you on 22 March 2013 meant CIH could process a part refund for the sum of £144.75. This was also processed on 17 May 2013 and a payable order should be received by you within 30 working days.

It has been determined that parcel reference, AR53>>>>>>>GB was charged levying 20% VAT. Unfortunately the operational manager at CIH has been unable to view the declaration for this parcel. However, a Border Force officer at CIH at the time of import did make a note advising the contents of the parcel was declared as ‘sample coins’. I should explain sample coins would not attract 5% VAT so CIH acted correctly by applying 20% VAT charge on this parcel. I cannot for this reason uphold this element of your complaint.

CIH has determined from the correspondence forwarded to and received by the Border Force Complaint Team that you are entitled to a part refund for the sum of £81.35 for parcel reference, AR3>>>>GB. They processed this on 30 May 2013 and you should receive the payable order within 30 days.

I understand the part refund for parcel reference AR53>>>>>GB was not processed within agreed timescales. I am therefore upholding this element of your complaint. I should explain CIH aims to provide a full response to its customers within 20 working days. However, they are currently experiencing a high level of correspondence. Senior managers are aware customers are not always receiving the level of service they should expect. I am sorry for any inconvenience and upset caused by the delay.

At present CIH is unable to receive email correspondence. However, the National Advice Service (NAS) handles telephone queries on postal imports and will contact CIH on behalf of the customer for clarification if required. Should you wish to contact NAS you may do so by telephoning 0845 010 9000.

I hope my reply has clarified the position. The Border Force complaints team are keen to continually review and improve our services. To help us do so, we would be grateful if you could complete a short online survey. Please access the survey using the following link: http://feedback.ukba.homeoffice.gov....p?i=35927hosbt

Yours sincerely

Mrs P >>>>>>>

Complaints Officer

[Horsa 0]

Hi guys I have sent this response back + this complaint has now gone to the parliamentary ombudsman

Wish me luck

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

martin >>>>>>>

Attachment

02/07/2013

Documents, Photos

To: mark.harper.mp@parliament.uk

Cc: enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk, freedom.informationteam@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk

Picture of martin >>>>>>

From: martin >>>>>>> (>>>>>>>>>>>@hotmail.co.uk)

Sent: 02 July 2013 14:54:29

To: mark.harper.mp@parliament.uk (mark.harper.mp@parliament.uk)

Cc: enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk (enquiries@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk); freedom.informationteam@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk (freedom.informationteam@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk)

Outlook Active View

4 attachments (total 2.3 MB)

Download Complaint reference 40>>>.doc (182.7 KB)

Complaint reference 40>>>.doc

View online

Download 2nd parcel 2.jpg (767.1 KB)

Download

Download new parcel.jpg (1342.1 KB)

Download

Download new parliamentary complaint.docx (15.7 KB)

new parliamentary complaint.docx

View online

View slide show (2)

Download all as zip

Martin>>>>>>>

Dear Mark Harper,

Sir Charles Montgomery

Parliamentary ombudsman

Dear Gentlemen,

I recently sent you a parliamentary complaint on the 5th of June see attachment (parliamentary complaint) and have just received a reply from Mrs. P >>>> from the UKBA please see attachment (complaint reference 40>>>)

Apparently this was passed on to her from a minister, rather than treat it as a parliamentary complaint as I requested!

The reason I asked for this to be treated as a parliamentary complaint was because the ukba was refusing to respond to any requests of clarification in regards to them following the rule of law and charging the correct rate of vat on numismatic collector’s items, but also because the Ukba was not responding to complaints in line with their own guidelines.

This response from the ukba in no way answers any of the important questions that I have raised firstly in my original complaint letter or now in my parliamentary complaint.

In regards to the ukba’s response which I have just received, it seems they are only addressing the issue of the 3 parcels that I have received and completely ignoring the more important issues that I have raised regarding their fraudulent behavior, lack of accountability, failure to comply with the rule of law, knock on effects to other services and general unwillingness to correct the problems that they themselves are deliberately causing.

With this in mind I hardly feel this response from ukba warrants any serious reply however I will reply if for no other reason than for my own personal amusement below.

The first parcel is not in question!

The second parcel in which Mrs. >>>> upholds my complaint is in actual fact the parcel where samples were included and not the third parcel as she mentions! See attachment (2nd parcel)

If you’re looking at the attached scan your see that it clearly has the correct code of 9705000000 and x 25 items at a cost of £546. Underneath this is then the reference to sample coins x 3 = N/A

The third parcel DID NOT HAVE SAMPLE COINS ON THE CUSTOMS DECLARATION! It only had the classification code of 9705000000, so this statement by the relevant officer mentioned was false! As I mentioned in my complaint the customs declaration on the third parcel was not on the package when it arrived but the supplier did inform me that they had put this code and only this code on the package just like they have done with this my 4th package please see attachment (new parcel)

This package arrived this week, and was naturally overcharged at the 20% vat rate yet again!

So obviously nothing has changed at the ukba Langley depot! Nor is it likely to change if they are not held to account and forced to desist from their deliberate fraudulent activity!

Moving on let me be perfectly clear

I have no interest in going through the ukba complaints process, they have made it perfectly clear that they are unwilling to respond to the various questions I have raised over their conduct!

They have however dealt with all my refunds, even in regards to this new parcel to which I have already received a letter of refund confirmation in the amazing time frame of less than 5 days since posting my bor286 refund request to them

(Thanks for this to Karen >>>> the correspondence manager in Coventry).

I say Amazing because of the massive backlog in refund requests that the ukba themselves have caused due to overcharging the British public, I suspect they are now up to the beginning of march in regards to this backlog and I thank them for not putting me through another 3 months of aggravation in contrast to the possible 3 to 6 months that any other citizen in this country is having to wait to get a response from them.

Let me sum it up again:

1, they obviously know that they should only be charging 5% vat and judging from this response letter so do the employee’s on the frontline at the Langley depot.

Which begs the question why are they still charging 20% vat on parcels with the correct specification code?

IT is obvious to me that this deliberate overcharging and avoidance or addressing the issues is taking place so as to defraud the general public out of money!

Surely just following the law and charging the correct vat rate instead of overcharging and creating a massive backlog of complaints due to their own fraudulent behavior cannot be that hard to correct!

2, the truth of the matter is this; at any point over the last 4 months the ukba could and should have corrected this problem, not only for the benefit of the British population who keep getting overcharged but also for themselves to nip the backlog and knock on effects in the bud!

Sadly all they seem to be doing is at best ignoring the problem and doing everything in their power to undermine any discussion as to how to follow the rule of law and do their job.

As far as I am concerned when it gets to the point that the only defense they have is statements like “due to the massive backlog and internal problems that we have created we apologize for any inconvenience caused” then it’s beyond a joke and seems pretty clear that the only logical explanation for why this is continuing is because it’s part of a deliberate policy of committing fraud!

Yes they have refunded me my money and yes I am sure that I will get my refunds on any imports in the future again but I am not willing to sit back and allow them to commit fraud on the general population who are unable to find out this information or spend as much time as I have forcing them to do what they should be doing in the first place!

I want answers!

I want to read that the ukba in Langley will respect the rule of law and charge vat on numismatic imports at the correct rate at the point of import without forcing people to jump through hoops, without them having to send in refund requests for money that they should never have had to pay in the first place!

I want to read that any problems that might be stopping this from happening will now be fixed or that employee’s who obviously know this is an issue, will from now charge the correct rate straight away rather than overcharge deliberately in the hope that most people will not bother in requesting a refund and though pretend ignorance financially benefit the ukba from this obvious fraud.

So with all due respect could you now please pass my complaint onto the parliamentary ombudsman, if this is not possible please let me know why?

In the mean time I will be passing all this information on to Nick Brown mp and also a reporter who I have spoken to from the guardian.

Sincerely

Martin >>>>>>

http://silvertrader.ebid.net/

[Horsa 0]

Hey guys sorry i should have updated stuff but have been really busy
basically its just ongoing i'm still fighting the battle but the buggers are taking their time
At the moment its still 20% vat however i am challenging this and until the decision is made your have to pay 20%
( i personally can do it in small amounts due to the amount of paperwork i have etc etc ) but this does not help others like you at the moment
will add the latest development / received letter in 4 minutes i need to edit personal details

follow the link to the bottom of the page to see the latest response from the parliamentary Ombudsman

http://forums.ebid.net/showthread.php?167858-Silvertraders-topics-%28-Importation-Vat-on-numismatic-coins-into-the-UK-is-not-20-!-%29/page2