CGS Trial

[azda 973]

Exactly My thoughts Stuart. By upping the turnaroumd time they are effectively covering the base where they seem to be struggling on the 30 day promise, but have now Shot themselves in the Foot by doing so and alienating at least 2 customers in myself and you. I can't imagime sending a coin off and not seeing it again for 3 months, and what happens if in that 3 months if they actually forget your coin or struggle with the 3 month turnaround, do they then up it to 6 months?

[VickySilver 775]

OK, a bit OT but here is one for the graders in the crowd - sorry taken through perspex:

And what would a CGS grade be?

I have my opinion but up for grabs

OK, horrible pictures. Actually the coin has residual lustre but is softly struck as officianados of this series may appreciate. Does the date catch a break?

Not quite as nice as Platt's....

Edited April 9, 2013 by VickySilver

[Nick 325]

OK, a bit OT but here is one for the graders in the crowd - sorry taken through perspex:

And what would a CGS grade be?

I have my opinion but up for grabs

OK, horrible pictures. Actually the coin has residual lustre but is softly struck as officianados of this series may appreciate. Does the date catch a break?

Not quite as nice as Platt's....

Wow. You don't see many 1854 florins, in any grade. A bit weak on the reverse, but not a great deal of wear. I suspect CGS might grade in the 55-60 range.

That one must be worth more than all of mine put together.

Edited April 9, 2013 by Nick

[Paulus 1,942]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if the went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

[Paulus 1,942]

VS - I will take a stab at just VF50 despite the weak strike, grading should be no different for a rare year, just the value will be a lot higher - could be way out though!

[VickySilver 775]

Very interesting strike as the mid portions of obv and rev not nicely struck, the crown details very well struck as is the lettering. Edge fairly sharp. There is a hit on the harp body that almost looks to be a mini-countermark. I would say the coin looks a bit better in hand, tried to take more pictures but they were dismal.

The DNW 1863 got me to thinking about this one. That is a nicer bit strikewise but suffers from some obv. soft strike maladies...

I had to look twice at that specimen as my ex-wife made off with my own specimen that was ex-Ramussen and hope that one day it will show again -

I specifically had the judge to order it returned to me in my divorce "settlement" along with the DeSaulles pattern obverses from his own collection

that I had framed up rather nicely...(sob, sob..)

[argentumandcoins 70]

Very interesting strike as the mid portions of obv and rev not nicely struck, the crown details very well struck as is the lettering. Edge fairly sharp. There is a hit on the harp body that almost looks to be a mini-countermark. I would say the coin looks a bit better in hand, tried to take more pictures but they were dismal.

The DNW 1863 got me to thinking about this one. That is a nicer bit strikewise but suffers from some obv. soft strike maladies...

I had to look twice at that specimen as my ex-wife made off with my own specimen that was ex-Ramussen and hope that one day it will show again -

I specifically had the judge to order it returned to me in my divorce "settlement" along with the DeSaulles pattern obverses from his own collection

that I had framed up rather nicely...(sob, sob..)

Marriage is like a deck of cards VS. All you need at the start are 2 Hearts, at the end all you want is a Club and a Spade!!!!

[Rob 3,002]

Marriage is like a deck of cards VS. All you need at the start are 2 Hearts, at the end all you want is a Club and a Spade!!!!

Those are the cheap bits. What about the missing one?

[Sword 1,330]

Very interesting strike as the mid portions of obv and rev not nicely struck, the crown details very well struck as is the lettering. Edge fairly sharp. There is a hit on the harp body that almost looks to be a mini-countermark. I would say the coin looks a bit better in hand, tried to take more pictures but they were dismal.

The DNW 1863 got me to thinking about this one. That is a nicer bit strikewise but suffers from some obv. soft strike maladies...

I had to look twice at that specimen as my ex-wife made off with my own specimen that was ex-Ramussen and hope that one day it will show again -

I specifically had the judge to order it returned to me in my divorce "settlement" along with the DeSaulles pattern obverses from his own collection

that I had framed up rather nicely...(sob, sob..)

Marriage is like a deck of cards VS. All you need at the start are 2 Hearts, at the end all you want is a Club and a Spade!!!!

a Heart and a (big) Diamond might also start things off!

[Coinery 926]

You could always dig the diamond up later, once the investigations have cooled off?

[Paulus 1,942]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if they went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

[Paulus 1,942]

Duplicate Post

[Nick 325]

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if they went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

The assets are definitely there, but not their's.

[Sword 1,330]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if the went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

Even rejected coins have UIN I think. All coins were initially allocated UIN prior to grading and the UIN of rejected coins can't really be recyled without causing problems. Is it possible that many of the staff at CGS might also be employed by London Coins? If so, some are simply earning a bit of extra money "on the side" when they have time. Since there is hardly any extra overhead as CGS is using same premises as London Coins, they can keep going even with a small turnover.

I don't believe that they spend the same amount of time grading each coin. For example, they are graded over 1000 QE sovereigns. If the grading doesn't affect value, then why put in the effort?

[Paulus 1,942]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if the went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

Even rejected coins have UIN I think. All coins were initially allocated UIN prior to grading and the UIN of rejected coins can't really be recyled without causing problems. Is it possible that many of the staff at CGS might also be employed by London Coins? If so, some are simply earning a bit of extra money "on the side" when they have time. Since there is hardly any extra overhead as CGS is using same premises as London Coins, they can keep going even with a small turnover.

I don't believe that they spend the same amount of time grading each coin. For example, they are graded over 1000 QE sovereigns. If the grading doesn't affect value, then why put in the effort?

Yes Nick, you're right about rejected coins having a UIN, I have just checked mine. I don't know whether any of the graders also work for London Coins, but if they do it could explain how the finances could be made to work, but also introduces more potential for conflict of interest!

I think it would be appalling if they don't spend the same care/time grading QE sovereigns (for example) - someone has paid £20 quid a pop and should expect the same service IMO.

[Sword 1,330]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if the went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

Even rejected coins have UIN I think. All coins were initially allocated UIN prior to grading and the UIN of rejected coins can't really be recyled without causing problems. Is it possible that many of the staff at CGS might also be employed by London Coins? If so, some are simply earning a bit of extra money "on the side" when they have time. Since there is hardly any extra overhead as CGS is using same premises as London Coins, they can keep going even with a small turnover.

I don't believe that they spend the same amount of time grading each coin. For example, they are graded over 1000 QE sovereigns. If the grading doesn't affect value, then why put in the effort?

Yes Nick, you're right about rejected coins having a UIN, I have just checked mine. I don't know whether any of the graders also work for London Coins, but if they do it could explain how the finances could be made to work, but also introduces more potential for conflict of interest!

I think it would be appalling if they don't spend the same care/time grading QE sovereigns (for example) - someone has paid £20 quid a pop and should expect the same service IMO.

People who slab those coins probably only want to show they are genuine. Do you think that London Coins themselves would also pay £20 a pop?

[azda 973]

Well - I didn't ask that specific question but have just done a few minutes' analysis based on a few (probably dubious) assumptions.

They have been grading/slabbing for just over 7 years (according to the grader, I thought it was longer and are currently up to UIN 26422. That gives an average of around 50 per week, but won't include rejected coins or those slabbed for encapsulation only.

In the last 2 months they have 'numbered' a total of 850 coins, giving an average of 75 per week, let's round it up to 100 for ease to allow for rejects etc. So that is 20 per day.

I understand that there are 3 graders, each taking around 10 minutes on that part of the process, plus the coin needs photographing, slabbing, posting etc, so let's say 1 hour per coin - so that's 20 man hours per day on average.

Let's say average revenue is £20 per coin (ignoring all postage and packing which I will assume is 'at cost') - this gives a total revenue of just over £500k for all coins over the 7 + years. Clearly they can't afford to employ 3 people full-time on a gross revenue of £70k per year, when there are all the overheads as well. So one theory must be that delays in the production line are due to waiting for part-time staff to carry out the next stage in processing a coin - it still needs 20 man-hours per day though at current demand, if my assumptions aren't way off! Doesn't really add up does it?

I don't know why they charge double for more valuable coins, I assumed it was mainly because of the quicker turn-around service that the higher rate delivers - but that seems to be going. The grading should be just as strict and thorough for coins up to £200 in value, so what is the value proposition in their pricing structure now?

And I agree, 3 months is WAY too long for a collector, let alone a dealer. And what would happen if the went bust while they had some of your coins, anyone know? Would we be treated like a 'preferential creditor', is there any danger the coins could be treated as there assets?

The total you mentioned Paul won't consist of Londoncoins 1000 or more lots for any auctions they have, this will be where the serious slowdown occurs and probably coins like mine will get shifted to the backburner until Londons have been done. This is where the conflict of interest and serious lag starts in my opinion

Edited April 10, 2013 by azda