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Gary

1861 Halfpenny F282A?

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Freeman mentions two 1861 Halfpennies with 6 over 8 in the date and lists them as F274A Obv5 RevE and F282A, Obv 7 Rev G. Also listed is a 1861 Penny 6 over 8, F30, Obv 6 Rev G.

Also reported an 1861 Halfpenny F276 Obv6, RevE 6 over 6 (same die as the F274A)

Miceal Gouby reports an 1866 penny first 6 over 8.

It has been assumed that the wrong punch was used during a die repair

In the case of the halfpenny Rev G was used up until 1873 and the penny Rev G until 1875 what if Dies were prepared in bulk to be used over a period of more than 10 years,

this would mean that the last two digits of the date would be added at a later time. This opens the possibility that these coins originate not by an 8 punch but rather by a misplaced 6

as seen in the pic below of an F274 6 over a higher 6.

If members have examples of these coins and a few minutes to spare perhaps you could look for traces of the top of the lower six poking out above and post results here.

post-439-087193500 1362412344_thumb.jpg

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Coins 728x90

I have one Gary, though not as good a example as yours. I'll try to find a pic of it.

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Nice example! I'm fortunate in having one of these also, however this 1861 halfpenny die clearly has a 6 over much higher 6, not 6/8.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

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The idea of the last two digits resulting in mispunched letters seems eminently plausible as mistakes in both choice of punch and alignment abound. The dies were routinely repaired by filling and recutting, so anything is possible and there is no reason to restrict wrong punches to the legend only. The wide date 1876H halfpenny has a die with the 6 over a farthing 6, there is an 1862 over 26 die for example. This was the normal method of repair from the inception of milled coinage in this country until they stopped adding the last two digits towards the end of the 19th century.

Edited by Rob

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The wide date 1876H halfpenny has a die with the 6 over a farthing 6, there is an 1862 over 26 die for example.

Thanks for the info Rob. I have never heard of these two overdates. Dracott has no mention of them. Mal Lewendon does mention a 1876 over 6 but from the Pic it seems to be a normal 6 over 6 and not a Farthing 6!

This was the normal method of repair from the inception of milled coinage in this country until they stopped adding the last two digits towards the end of the 19th century.

So I take it that the dies were prepared without the last two digits of the date, these being added as and when the need arouse?

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The wide date 1876H halfpenny has a die with the 6 over a farthing 6, there is an 1862 over 26 die for example.

Thanks for the info Rob. I have never heard of these two overdates. Dracott has no mention of them. Mal Lewendon does mention a 1876 over 6 but from the Pic it seems to be a normal 6 over 6 and not a Farthing 6!

The 6 over a farthing 6 is in the 'anything else' thread of the new varieties section. The 1862 over 26 I acquired from CC in 2007 (March 2007 list no.954) when I resorted to ploughing through their available coins looking for an excuse to buy something. They didn't realise as it is quite subtle needing the light to fall at the correct angle to see it and it has to be unc or thereabouts, otherwise the detail can get lost. It will never set the world on fire, but amply demonstrates the way in which dies were repaired or corrected. I know of another with full lustre (but the owner doesn't realise) ;)

This was the normal method of repair from the inception of milled coinage in this country until they stopped adding the last two digits towards the end of the 19th century.

So I take it that the dies were prepared without the last two digits of the date, these being added as and when the need arouse?

In fact the preparation of two or three digit dates goes all the way back to Elizabethan times as the sixpence dies were produced with 159 , but due to the lack of silver minted during the anchor mark period there were a number of unused dies at the turn of the century and so these dies were recut with 1600 during cypher. The 'modern' incomplete dates potentially started with the milled recoinage of 1816 as there is a 181 halfcrown. There is also a 182 reverse (crown) and obverse (halfcrown), but it was certainly established for the Victorian silver and copper coins and perpetuated with the bronze as witnessed by the irregular spacing seen in the last two digits on many denominations. It wasn't until the 1880s that the dies were dated in full.

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Freeman mentions two 1861 Halfpennies with 6 over 8 in the date and lists them as F274A Obv5 RevE and F282A, Obv 7 Rev G. Also listed is a 1861 Penny 6 over 8, F30, Obv 6 Rev G.

Also reported an 1861 Halfpenny F276 Obv6, RevE 6 over 6 (same die as the F274A)

Miceal Gouby reports an 1866 penny first 6 over 8.

It has been assumed that the wrong punch was used during a die repair

In the case of the halfpenny Rev G was used up until 1873 and the penny Rev G until 1875 what if Dies were prepared in bulk to be used over a period of more than 10 years,

this would mean that the last two digits of the date would be added at a later time. This opens the possibility that these coins originate not by an 8 punch but rather by a misplaced 6

as seen in the pic below of an F274 6 over a higher 6.

If members have examples of these coins and a few minutes to spare perhaps you could look for traces of the top of the lower six poking out above and post results here.

Gary, Here is my 1861, 6 over 6. Not nearly as nice as yours, but definable. It would be easy to see how this could be mistaken for a 6 over 8, if you couldn't see the upper arm of the 2nd 6.

post-509-092399300 1362529146_thumb.jpg

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Gary, Here is my 1861, 6 over 6. Not nearly as nice as yours, but definable. It would be easy to see how this could be mistaken for a 6 over 8, if you couldn't see the upper arm of the 2nd 6.

Thanks for that Bob. As you said it would easy to mistake this as a 6 over 8 on a worn coin as the loop of the 6 within the top 6 would be protected from wear where as the top arc of the underlying 6 is more exposed to wear.

It would be interesting to see a higher grade F282A to see if there are any traces of the top arc.

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I have several variants of the 6 over 6 which I will post after this...

When I asked Michael Freeman a few years ago about the 6 over 6 varieties, he seemed to feel (this is from memory as he did not have any notes handy) that the F-282a was a 6/8 but that the F-274's were probably a 6/6....

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1861 F-282A 6 over 8

1861F-282A6over8compositeHL.jpg

I hoped you would pop in on this one. Thanks for the pics Gary. Have you closely inspected the slabbed F282A? Is it really a 6 over 8 or is there possibly traces of the upper arc of a 6 poking out above the upper 6?

Edited by Gary

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(part 1)

1861 F-274 8 over 8, 6 over 6, vertical line under the 8

1861F-2748over86over6verticallineDATEcropped.jpg

1861f-2748over86over6verticallineDATE61.jpg

Gary,

I once owned a 1861, 8 over 8, and 6 over 6 (on the same 1861 Half Penny), just like yours. I didn't keep a pic of it however. I sold it on my website!

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1861 F-274 6 over 6

1861F-2746over62ndspecimen60x001HLcropped.jpg

1861F-2746over62ndspecimenreverse.jpg

I have one of these too. Same die crack from rim to H of Halfpenny. No sign of 8 over 6 on this Die.

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1861 F-282A 6 over 8

1861F-282A6over8compositeHL.jpg

I hoped you would pop in on this one. Thanks for the pics Gary. Have you closely inspected the slabbed F282A? Is it really a 6 over 8 or is there possibly traces of the upper arc of a 6 poking out above the upper 6?

None that I can see.... It looks like the F-30 ... It's difficult to image through the plastic though..... I do need to take it out to conserve it, as is developing Verdigris spots...

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That is definately a F-30. You can see part of the 8 inside the oval center of the 6, and also see the top left "rounded" part of the 8, just peeking out from the upper left extension of the 6.

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Guest Tom
On 3/4/2013 at 11:00 AM, Gary said:

The whole coin

post-439-034515200 1362412817_thumb.jpg

Hello...I see your old posts on the 1861 halfpenny...I have one with an amazingly doubled 6...I know double sixes exist....but mine is totally separated..the date reading as 18661 I am unsure how to enter an image as a guest....will send and image if you send your email.....fletcher_rex@yahoo.com......thankyou

IMG_2819.JPG

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On 05/03/2018 at 3:06 PM, Guest Tom said:

.I have one with an amazingly doubled 6.

In what way is this amazing ,

Oh you mean its amazing you can see it , yes

  • Like 1

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