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Colin88

CGS - A customer-facing business?

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Why encapsulate rejected coins is something I once asked? The US grading Companies have been doing it for a while but the labels are like a normal label and may have a description such as 'AU DETAILS OBVERSE SCUFFED'. Some people have been caught out buying such coins thinking they had 'passed grading'. CGS opted for a yellow label to make it distinctive. The key here is what if you have a rare (or very scarce) coin that would normally be rejected by CGS. For example an 1862 half penny with a letter by the lighthouse, but the coin is very worn and physically battered. You may be want to sell it and I am sure there will be a buyer for it as a raw coin. However, if sold as a genuine coin which may have otherwise graded as fine but has other problems - I believe it would get a premium price. I recently had two such coins with the letter C by the light house returned in yellow ticketed CGS slabs and will be selling one of them in due course - I will let you know whether my expectation on improved price was met or not.

Ironically, this is one example where the TPG input is likely to have little weight. People who are looking and willing to spend serious amounts for letter by lighthouse halfpennies are rarely, if ever, not up to speed on the variety.

The two halfpennies (actually I had one with an A by lighthouse - even rarer) so let us say three coins are in parlous condition. One had been immersed in water so long that it was literally flaking away - but not enough to stop seeing the letter and other detail. They are now in rigid holders and I believe will not deteriorate further. I bought an NGC graded 1962 letter C halfpenny that was graded as MS64RB (Unc at least one would think). CGS did not even remove it from the capsule but called me (which is when I made my first journey to their offices) to tell me they would reject it. When I met with them the coin was represented to grading (it looked lovely - even in a capsule!) and I was shown the coin through the capsule under a ten times magnifier to see the verdigris that someone had tried to remove with presumably a pin, then I was shown where the coin had been recoloured (I did not know you could do that to make a dull coin look UNC). On that point if anyone knows what can be used to 'return a bronze coin' to an UNC appearance I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'.

Edited by Bill Pugsley

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What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain.

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Why encapsulate rejected coins is something I once asked? The US grading Companies have been doing it for a while but the labels are like a normal label and may have a description such as 'AU DETAILS OBVERSE SCUFFED'. Some people have been caught out buying such coins thinking they had 'passed grading'. CGS opted for a yellow label to make it distinctive. The key here is what if you have a rare (or very scarce) coin that would normally be rejected by CGS. For example an 1862 half penny with a letter by the lighthouse, but the coin is very worn and physically battered. You may be want to sell it and I am sure there will be a buyer for it as a raw coin. However, if sold as a genuine coin which may have otherwise graded as fine but has other problems - I believe it would get a premium price. I recently had two such coins with the letter C by the light house returned in yellow ticketed CGS slabs and will be selling one of them in due course - I will let you know whether my expectation on improved price was met or not.

Ironically, this is one example where the TPG input is likely to have little weight. People who are looking and willing to spend serious amounts for letter by lighthouse halfpennies are rarely, if ever, not up to speed on the variety.

The two halfpennies (actually I had one with an A by lighthouse - even rarer) so let us say three coins are in parlous condition. One had been immersed in water so long that it was literally flaking away - but not enough to stop seeing the letter and other detail. They are now in rigid holders and I believe will not deteriorate further. I bought an NGC graded 1962 letter C halfpenny that was graded as MS64RB (Unc at least one would think). CGS did not even remove it from the capsule but called me (which is when I made my first journey to their offices) to tell me they would reject it. When I met with them the coin was represented to grading (it looked lovely - even in a capsule!) and I was shown the coin through the capsule under a ten times magnifier to see the verdigris that someone had tried to remove with presumably a pin, then I was shown where the coin had been recoloured (I did not know you could do that to make a dull coin look UNC). On that point if anyone knows what can be used to 'return a bronze coin' to an UNC appearance I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'.

Bill, I have a book called "cleaning and preservation of coins and medals" by Sandford J Durst, ISBN 0-915262-03-7

It is an achedemic work and probably written with museum conservators in mind.

If you cannot find a copy for sale I am more than happy to loan you my copy if it would help.

John.

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Well, I put this on the other thread too. Will CGS reimburse - don't think so..

.IMG_0205.jpg

Not to mention the gross overgrading that makes any of the previous NGC or PCGS examples pale, I must say....

BTW, I generally think CGS does much better, thank God.

Edited by VickySilver

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I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'.

Bill, I have a book called "cleaning and preservation of coins and medals" by Sandford J Durst, ISBN 0-915262-03-7

It is an achedemic work and probably written with museum conservators in mind.

If you cannot find a copy for sale I am more than happy to loan you my copy if it would help.

John.

I've got 'Cleaning of Coins and Medals' by G Welter (1970) SNB8244-0193-X. It might be useful once I get my Chemistry Masters! It is good though, if you want to borrow that one too (it would post as a large-letter, so not expensive)!

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I would appreciate the information as I am researching an article on 'coin preservation'.

Bill, I have a book called "cleaning and preservation of coins and medals" by Sandford J Durst, ISBN 0-915262-03-7

It is an achedemic work and probably written with museum conservators in mind.

If you cannot find a copy for sale I am more than happy to loan you my copy if it would help.

John.

I've got 'Cleaning of Coins and Medals' by G Welter (1970) SNB8244-0193-X. It might be useful once I get my Chemistry Masters! It is good though, if you want to borrow that one too (it would post as a large-letter, so not expensive)!

Thank you both for the offer of loaning me the books. I was able to find both on them on Amazon (plus one other) and I have duly ordered them all. The article should be written this year if my work does not get in the way. Thanks again.

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What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain.

From my experience of Graded Coins (I am told there are over 20 'grading companies' in the USA in addition to PCGS and NGC) there is undoubtedly hype and pressure to get coins graded. One could almost suggest that in North America that collectors are buying graded coins by US firms because of peer pressure. If you want to make top dollar for a coin in North America - get it graded. I have seen British Coins for sale in NGC and PCGS capsules in the USA at prices that far exceed what Spink (and indeed most UK Catalogues) would suggest - especially scarcer/rarer items (I am fortunate to visit the USA often on business).

I believe that my collection will realise a better price having been graded by CGS. Many will not agree and that is fine by me - fifteen years ago grading of coins in North America was seldom done. Now it is the norm. Perhaps if I survive another twenty years the UK and rest of Europe may follow suit or I may just be a lonely voice in the crowd of people preferring ungraded coins.

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I think that grading has two aspects to it.

For the buyer it gives assurance that what they are buying is indeed what they think they are buying.

For the seller it gives legitimacy to what they are trying to sell. That the coin is, indeed, what they say it is.

For this system to be successful, the grading companies need to be independent of buyers and sellers and be recognised as competent. In particular, the grading needs to be accurate and generally accepted as such.

As a buyer (not seller) of coins, I don't know enough about the grading companies to be confident in their independence or competence. From comments on here, it would appear that there may be some issues here.

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I think that grading has two aspects to it.

For the buyer it gives assurance that what they are buying is indeed what they think they are buying.

For the seller it gives legitimacy to what they are trying to sell. That the coin is, indeed, what they say it is.

For this system to be successful, the grading companies need to be independent of buyers and sellers and be recognised as competent. In particular, the grading needs to be accurate and generally accepted as such.

As a buyer (not seller) of coins, I don't know enough about the grading companies to be confident in their independence or competence. From comments on here, it would appear that there may be some issues here.

Leaving aside CGS, I have 2 1689 halfcrowns on my website, both slabbed by NGC and both identified as incorrect ESC varieties. One even has the wrong shield type for the ESC number it is supposed to be. Basic errors in my opinion and if they can't get the basics right what else can they get wrong?

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I think that grading has two aspects to it.

For the buyer it gives assurance that what they are buying is indeed what they think they are buying.

For the seller it gives legitimacy to what they are trying to sell. That the coin is, indeed, what they say it is.

For this system to be successful, the grading companies need to be independent of buyers and sellers and be recognised as competent. In particular, the grading needs to be accurate and generally accepted as such.

As a buyer (not seller) of coins, I don't know enough about the grading companies to be confident in their independence or competence. From comments on here, it would appear that there may be some issues here.

Leaving aside CGS, I have 2 1689 halfcrowns on my website, both slabbed by NGC and both identified as incorrect ESC varieties. One even has the wrong shield type for the ESC number it is supposed to be. Basic errors in my opinion and if they can't get the basics right what else can they get wrong?

And not forgetting, Jaggy, that we have even pulled-up counterfeit coins in NGC slabs on here!

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When I started this thread it was not about the merits or otherwise of slabbing.....each to their own on that subject as it will always be.

I was simply making a comment about how, in my opinion and recent experience, how un-business like CGS seemed to be.

Not sure how many of you own their own businesses but you will know that you never get a second chance to make a first impression..my first impression when calling CGS is of a very bored sounding person answering the phone....that would not be good for business in my world.

The second point is that I was offering them a volume deal and would have hoped for maybe some discussion on what we could have done on the price....maybe 5 - 10 percent discount I would have thought not unreasonable but open to have a chat...again in my world, always happy to discuss a volume deal with a new customer..its how I pay the mortgage.

CGS really werent interested in that and just sounded uninterested in anything really......that is and was my experience..and in business, perception is truth.

For me, a classic example of a company that really needs some local competition or at the very very least a bright and cheery sounding person on the phone.

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What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain.

From my experience of Graded Coins (I am told there are over 20 'grading companies' in the USA in addition to PCGS and NGC) there is undoubtedly hype and pressure to get coins graded. One could almost suggest that in North America that collectors are buying graded coins by US firms because of peer pressure. If you want to make top dollar for a coin in North America - get it graded. I have seen British Coins for sale in NGC and PCGS capsules in the USA at prices that far exceed what Spink (and indeed most UK Catalogues) would suggest - especially scarcer/rarer items (I am fortunate to visit the USA often on business).

I believe that my collection will realise a better price having been graded by CGS. Many will not agree and that is fine by me - fifteen years ago grading of coins in North America was seldom done. Now it is the norm. Perhaps if I survive another twenty years the UK and rest of Europe may follow suit or I may just be a lonely voice in the crowd of people preferring ungraded coins.

Bill you mentioned that there was some sort of meeting this weekend with the CGS boys and girls. So how did it go and what was their answers to the questions raised on here?

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What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain.

I concur that a lot of grading of coins is a marketing ploy. However, there is an aspect of it that I have found does add value - and that is for scarcer/rarer coins (whatever their grade). I decided to get all my collection coins graded in the mistaken belief that people who had sold them to me had been honest in their assessment of grade. So when you get a 1966 shilling graded by CGS as AU75 and a suggested value of £10.00 you can immediately feel gutted; after all it costs £11.99 to grade plus what it may have cost (assuming I did not get it in change) from a dealer who sold it as BU. The upside is that my coins will (when all are graded) be encapsulated and I will have a consistent way to present them.

In North America 'finest known' coins (albeit at a point in time) do have premiums associated with them. Now a finest known when there is only one does not necessarily detract from the coin being recorded as such. Some of my own CGS graded finest known are good, fine and very fine. I am content with the grade allocated by CGS and, unlike American Companies, they have many more varieties per year/type for British Coins.

As to the comment it is the same coin whether slabbed or raw - at an instance in time I would agree. The issue is deciding what the grade is to apply to the coin (and in some cases exactly what variety it is). Dealers reasonably say that 'their years of experience' provide them the tools to grade a coin and that Grading companies have no place. I thought I could grade coins after 40 years of collecting but I may as well be in kindergarten. CGS does not have a committee looking at each coin but uses a rigid process for grading that includes detailed reference sets and a computer program to collate observations about the coin. Each coin is pre-assessed to determine what the coin is and is then photographed and allocated a unique number. The pre-assessment may include it being designated as a new variety (as has happened with a number of coins I have submitted to CGS) and then the first grader goes through the grading determination (using the tools noted above).

When the first grader has finished the coin is then examined by a second grader who does not know what the first grader came up with (in the computer program) and when the second is finished the results are collated. Generally the graders arrive at the same or similar rating (say AU78 and UNC80). If the grading is only a few points different the lower value is accepted as being the grade of the coin (everyone says CGS is tough on grading!). If it is more than a few points different then a third grader goes through the process or the coin is discussed with the third grader and a consensus is reached on what the grade should be. Having seen a grader go through this process and being shown how the assessment is undertaken I have confidence that the CGS method is probably more consistent than any subjective observations made by individuals.

Most farthing collectors will tell you they could tell an 1860 mule from a normal farthing. I did not know there are two different Mules for this year until I checked with the CGS site. Also, I submitted two half pennies to CGS for the same year. One I bought off a dealer who has been trading for forty five years who described the coin with a Freeman Designation and Dies 15 + O. The other I had bought as an unreferenced by Freeman for the same year as an unrecorded Dies 15 + O*. I actually challenged CGS when both coins were designated as the unrecorded coin and was assured that both were 'new types' and not seen by them before. So a dealer with 45 years experience had not detected the difference but CGS pre-assessment did and I was 'quids in' as a result. I have to also report the flip side of having what I thought was a scarce variety penny graded by CGS (in fair condition) to get it back with a grade of G8 (good) and worth £1.00 (bearing in mind it cost £11.99 to get graded) because it was the common variety of the year, not the rarer die pair I thought it was.

To summarise, if you are unsure of grading or have no wish to potentially be seriously upset by the grading of your coins that CGS may come up with - do not get your coins graded by CGS. Be happy with what you have! However, if you would like someone to professionally assess your coins and identify the varieties you have, especially if you think you have high grade scarce or rare coins, then submit a few to CGS and either be pleasantly surprised or possibly depressed by the results.

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Most of the US firms (OK, some on here besides me think ALL) are really just backyard operations t put something in a slab. CCS for example is notorious for this, but even with them Rob's rule applies - bargains can be had for the astute and careful.

CGS may be at a crossroads - can they up their customer service even to strangers and can they back their wares?

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What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

I think that to a certain extent that is just a marketing ploy pushed by the grading companies to make the punters believe that the cost of slabbing can be immediately offset from the perceived gain.

From my experience of Graded Coins (I am told there are over 20 'grading companies' in the USA in addition to PCGS and NGC) there is undoubtedly hype and pressure to get coins graded. One could almost suggest that in North America that collectors are buying graded coins by US firms because of peer pressure. If you want to make top dollar for a coin in North America - get it graded. I have seen British Coins for sale in NGC and PCGS capsules in the USA at prices that far exceed what Spink (and indeed most UK Catalogues) would suggest - especially scarcer/rarer items (I am fortunate to visit the USA often on business).

I believe that my collection will realise a better price having been graded by CGS. Many will not agree and that is fine by me - fifteen years ago grading of coins in North America was seldom done. Now it is the norm. Perhaps if I survive another twenty years the UK and rest of Europe may follow suit or I may just be a lonely voice in the crowd of people preferring ungraded coins.

Bill you mentioned that there was some sort of meeting this weekend with the CGS boys and girls. So how did it go and what was their answers to the questions raised on here?

The meeting went well (not as many as I would have like) but a variety of presentations including a very informative one by Steve Lockett on how CGS arrive at the values they place on graded coins. The notes of presentations and discussions will appear on the CGS Forum website within two weeks.

I did raise the matter of the 'car park' exchange and the 'lousy customer service'. There was much scratching of head over the first point in that exchanges of coins and discussions have taken place in car parks as a result of time pressures. I was assured that people deliver to their offices on almost a daily basis (apart from couriers and post office). Even with appointments promises on timings sometimes get compromised and time is snatched when about to go elsewhere or returning from somewhere. If there is a significant piece of business to conduct (for example when I may deliver 50 or more coins for grading) they prefer an appointment so that they can check my submission and give me a receipt before I leave. Going back to the head scratching, no specific instance stood out but anyone who is unhappy with such an arrangement can ask to go to their offices or be invited to return when time pressures are not as great.

The comment on poor customer service was taken on board and training will be undertaken to ensure such a conversation should not happen again. An interesting observation was made to me that I have some sympathy for - normally if you get poor customer service it would be right to take it up with a Manager. When I telephone a well known mobile telephone operation (which I have done from time to time) I just ask to speak to a manager at the outset so that matters can be properly resolved. CGS does accept coins being delivered to its offices (and if there are a lot of them it is as well to book an appointment). For myself I am content with their pricing as I think the results of their service are first class (and are cheaper than the main north American companies).

Unfortunately I did raise the question of how much does it cost to actually go through the CGS process and then encapsulate a coin and I suspect the margins out of £11.99 are very minimal indeed. This may lead to an upward review of prices during the course of this year.

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Most of the US firms (OK, some on here besides me think ALL) are really just backyard operations t put something in a slab. CCS for example is notorious for this, but even with them Rob's rule applies - bargains can be had for the astute and careful.

CGS may be at a crossroads - can they up their customer service even to strangers and can they back their wares?

CGS refuse to compromise their grading services. I repeatedly have stated that I believe a coin graded by CGS today will achieve the same or similar grade in five years time. The only thing they have changed since their launch is changing the previous EF75 and EF78 to AU75 and AU78.

I used to have a reasonably high regard for PCGS but they suddenly introduced 'plus' grades that were better than the original grades and a number of collectors se-submitted their coins for grading again. I have heard stories of dealers telling North American grading houses that they will only submit coins that will be designated as MS70 or PF70 and being told to submit them. Sitting on my desk is a nice copper Victoria 1854 half penny in a PCGS slab designated MS63BN (I bought by mistake) that I can tell has been cleaned (even in the slab).

Getting back to CGS. They will continue to batch submissions and process coins when the time is scheduled because without proper management of the operation they would not be able to continue running the business. I believe I have noted that if they were getting a 1,000 coins a week they could go through a step change of the operation and employ more staff solely focused on CGS needs. The observations made on forums such as this are being listened to and 'things continue to improve'. I would hate to see them go the way of the Australian Grading Company (out of business) as for the moment they are, for me, the most professional service out there for grading UK and non-North American coins.

I am just back from an auction where CGS graded coins were being offered for UK and elsewhere. Some sold below CGS suggested values (and I bought some of those) and some exceeded CGS suggested values (I bought none of those). Mind you, I will bid on CGS coins at auctions that I do not attend and thus cannot examine the coins - because I trust CGS grading. All the coins I bought that are CGS graded do not disappoint me.

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When I started this thread it was not about the merits or otherwise of slabbing.....each to their own on that subject as it will always be.

I was simply making a comment about how, in my opinion and recent experience, how un-business like CGS seemed to be.

Not sure how many of you own their own businesses but you will know that you never get a second chance to make a first impression..my first impression when calling CGS is of a very bored sounding person answering the phone....that would not be good for business in my world.

The second point is that I was offering them a volume deal and would have hoped for maybe some discussion on what we could have done on the price....maybe 5 - 10 percent discount I would have thought not unreasonable but open to have a chat...again in my world, always happy to discuss a volume deal with a new customer..its how I pay the mortgage.

CGS really werent interested in that and just sounded uninterested in anything really......that is and was my experience..and in business, perception is truth.

For me, a classic example of a company that really needs some local competition or at the very very least a bright and cheery sounding person on the phone.

I used to run businesses around the world (USA, Australia, Germany, UK and Singapore). I took care and the time to assess all markets that I moved into and I do the same for my local suppliers. I retired seven years ago but now run other peoples businesses (UK and Ireland). I still make mistakes (although hopefully not the same ones). I have not met any one who is infallible - we all make mistakes - and I have made too many in buying coins that were over graded by the people I bought them from.

I have noted that I always try to speak to managers (not gatekeepers nor receptionists). I am sure if you were to call CGS and ask to speak to a Manager they would take your call or call you back.

I disagree with you about perception is truth. I have too many instances where I considered I was making the 'right decision' to discover I had not (especially when recruiting Sales Directors).

First Class products rarely attract a discount but by all means pose the question to CGS. As to delivery to their offices - make an appointment with a manager.

If you feel that it is too late for CGS go off to PCGS, NGC, ANA or one of the other North American Graders. THey will probably give a discount on a volume deal but their starting prices are much higher than CGS's. There are many collectors out there who would be glad to get good coins in North American slabs but there are a discerning number of collectors who, like me, do not trust the North American grading services in the same way I trust the CGS service.

As to the second chance to make a good impression, I have supplied Japanese companies in Europe and found them to be exemplary customers. Rather than attack a supplier for failing (as many companies do) their first reaction is to work with the supplier to 'make things better'. An interesting approach compared to most businesses in Europe.

The person who answered the phone at CGS has tarnished your opinion of their business. I suggest you give them a second chance and take advantage of their excellent product. As for myself, I still have another 1,000 plus coins I plan to submit to their service at their commercial rates over the coming year or so. My biggest fear is that they will increase their charges from what I consider to be very reasonable rates at the moment.

All the best

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1)I have supplied Japanese companies in Europe and found them to be exemplary customers. Rather than attack a supplier for failing (as many companies do) their first reaction is to work with the supplier to 'make things better'. An interesting approach compared to most businesses in Europe.

2)As for myself, I still have another 1,000 plus coins I plan to submit to their service at their commercial rates over the coming year or so.

1) Superb, and I too would bow with folded hands at that philosophy!

2) No wonder my coins took so long to come back! :rolleyes:

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers.

As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers.

As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS.

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers.

As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS.

The problem here is not whether CGS act ethically or not - and I have no doubt that they are entirely ethical and above board. It is the perception that matters. While there is a link to a major vendor - in this case London Coins - there will always be a suspicion that they grade higher to get better prices and therefore higher commissions or profits.

And it only takes a couple of unhappy customers to start that ball rolling.

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers.

As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS.

The problem here is not whether CGS act ethically or not - and I have no doubt that they are entirely ethical and above board. It is the perception that matters. While there is a link to a major vendor - in this case London Coins - there will always be a suspicion that they grade higher to get better prices and therefore higher commissions or profits.

And it only takes a couple of unhappy customers to start that ball rolling.

I wouldn't say VS is unhappy with his '35 Crown! :ph34r:

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Bill, I have presented the above example of a "Rocking Horse Crown" that clearly looks to be overgraded by numerous points and has obviously developed a worrisome verdigris spot WITHIN the slab.

So that is two severe strikes in my book against them.

Another issue I do not think worked out to the satisfaction of many of us is the seemingly too intimate relationship with London Coins - I can not see how this is an issue that they sell coins at commission at auction that have been graded at their site, and that this is an ethical compromise at best.

I agree with many of your other points, though have no experience submitting coins through them so can not speak as to Customer Relations, charges, rapidity of service, etc.

I think this is a major issue. If people are relying on their grading then they need to be independent and seen to be independent of both buyers and sellers.

As the Americans might say ... it is Ethics 101.

I have my high grade coins slabbed by CGS mainly for protection and ease of viewing. I do find their grading generally strict but I think that's probably a good thing. I too find their intimate relationship with London Coins of some concern. As stated on their website, London Coins (Holdings) Group Ltd owns 51% of CGS. I don't have a real problem with that or the fact that London Coins auctions CGS coins on behalf of clients. However, I just think that the selling of CGS slabs on the London coins website (and the auctioning of these slabs when they fail to sell) raise questions of on the independency of CGS.

The problem here is not whether CGS act ethically or not - and I have no doubt that they are entirely ethical and above board. It is the perception that matters. While there is a link to a major vendor - in this case London Coins - there will always be a suspicion that they grade higher to get better prices and therefore higher commissions or profits.

And it only takes a couple of unhappy customers to start that ball rolling.

I have an open mind at the moment, and waiting on my first consignment to be graded and slabbed (hopefully) and returned, a trial run if you will. One of the questions in my 'open mind' at the moment is how on earth there are so many coins worth less than, say £25, that have been slabbed by CGS when it costs a minimum of £11.99 plus 2-way postage (or petrol!) for each coin? Lots of optimists or some preferential discounts?? Any thoughts? I am not saying £11.99 isn't good value, but how can it be economically viable for coins worth less than even £40?

Even Bill says he pays the going rate .. I spoke with Andrew of AJW Coins and he says he pays the going rate too, but was offered "25 for the price of 20" at some point.

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how can it be economically viable for coins worth less than even £40?

The slab plastic costs pennies! Even at non-commercial rates, you can buy the plastic shells for around 50p (I think it was something like that, I do remember it being insignificant when I looked) from the US (made me consider encapsulating my own coins, if the main argument is 'protection').

Without the post, £11 fee, or petrol costs involved, it wouldn't be a such bad day-job, sticking a £2 coin in a slab and calling it AU/UNC etc, and then firing it out to the masses at £20+ a throw.

In my view it's only economically viable for one source! I've never heard of any collector submitting a 1967 1d for encapsulation, but I bet they're out there! I bet someone somewhere once had a mint roll of them, and just sat up all night with a tube of glue and a cup of coffee, just before a holiday in Mauritius?

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