CGS - A customer-facing business?

[Coinery 926]

The fall back is the guarantee of the grading company. CGS are unequivocal in their guarantee - if the coin is 'wrong' or it suffers in the capsule (and so long as the capsule is not damaged by outside influence) they will pay up the value of the coin. Having graded nearly 25,000 that is a serious undertaking.

Are you sure about the CGS policy 'or if it suffers in the slab'? That seems like commercial suicide to me because, as you already mentioned, other entombed coins have historically been seen to suffer, and they don't seem to be doing anything differently, at least mechanically speaking!

The long-term gaurantee of CGS's product, must be a concern, not only to the collector, but also to CGS themselves (if they are genuinely offering a life-time gaurantee on entombed state), as they must realise the potential risks of a claim like that? I can't believe they'd get the backing of an insurance company on such a point.

I guess, as numismatist has said LTD, LTD, LTD!

Also, Bill, I just wanted to say again that it's very kind of you to come on here and present the case of CGS, and also that I don't want you to think there is any kind of witch hunt in my statements, I fully appreciate you are just another collector, greatly interested in coins and the slabbing process.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

[Nick 325]

An excellent observation! Some of the early UK proof sets from 1971 in their 'sealed' Royal Mint containers were impaired because of the air (and glue) used to seal the capsules.

Having seen the slabbing process I know virtually all of the air is removed when the coin is encapsulated but not all of it. I am no chemist but I could imagine that there is still sufficient air in the slab that if moisture is present could lead to blemishes (verdigris or other corrosion) of the coin itself. Ideally each coin should be slabbed in an 'inert' gas or vacuum but that would lead to a significant increase in cost for the process (clean air room and Health & Safety of encapsulators).

The fall back is the guarantee of the grading company. CGS are unequivocal in their guarantee - if the coin is 'wrong' or it suffers in the capsule (and so long as the capsule is not damaged by outside influence) they will pay up the value of the coin. Having graded nearly 25,000 that is a serious undertaking.

Can you point me to a webpage where this guarentee is defined? I'd be interested to see the terms and conditions.

The one thing I do know about the guarentees offered by the grading companies are that they are entirely worthless if you buy a slabbed coin. The guarentee only applies to the original submitter of the raw coin.

[Gary1000 41]

IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit.

Well ... maybe. But personally I'd have thought (that in the UK/Europe at least) a coin will find it's value dependant on what it is and the condition. I'd be surprised if many (any?) members here would pay any more just because a coin is slabbed.

Amen. I've often considered slabbing some high grade but fairly common hammered coins for the US market but I cannot see a slab in the UK adding a significant percentage to the value or sale price.

Would the US market even take one look at a non-US slabbed coin. IMO if you want to sell to the US you need a US slab. Although I will say, one factor in CGS's favour is that they use the 100 scale so they can have higher numbers than the US TPG, great for playing the numbers game US collectors

[Nick 325]

A bit of an anecdote, but for interest sake several years ago I got an example of each of the TPGs "work" of a particular issue: the 1935 specimen crown in NGC65, PCGS65 and CGS85. I'm going to challenge my skills if people are still interested by the weekend and picture them. Won't give away which I prefer so maybe a poll??

Just based upon percentages, the 65's should be better than the 85. (65/70 = 92.8% whereas 85/100 = 85%). By this yardstick, a CGS85 is roughly equivalent to a MS60, but I know which I'd rather have.

[mike 5]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

[mike 5]

A bit of an anecdote, but for interest sake several years ago I got an example of each of the TPGs "work" of a particular issue: the 1935 specimen crown in NGC65, PCGS65 and CGS85. I'm going to challenge my skills if people are still interested by the weekend and picture them. Won't give away which I prefer so maybe a poll??

Just based upon percentages, the 65's should be better than the 85. (65/70 = 92.8% whereas 85/100 = 85%). By this yardstick, a CGS85 is roughly equivalent to a MS60, but I know which I'd rather have.

You can't compere these two grading systems, they are very different. MS 60 would hardly be CGS EF and to achieve CGS UNC 85 you will need (generally speaking)at least MS65 - ideally from PCGS.

[Coinery 926]

I would think that anyone with £1500 to spend on coins is not a junior collector, and should really know his own stuff, and be happy in him/herself that they are indeed looking at a Choice coin?

[azda 973]

So who calibrated the actual Coins that are used in the grading process ?

[Paulus 1,942]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

So 25,000 coins over 6 years at £12-£20 per coin (today's prices) gives a generous estimate of £70,000 revenue per year from coin grading - I'm sure that won't leave much after paying people and overheads! And the VAT man!!

[Nick 325]

A bit of an anecdote, but for interest sake several years ago I got an example of each of the TPGs "work" of a particular issue: the 1935 specimen crown in NGC65, PCGS65 and CGS85. I'm going to challenge my skills if people are still interested by the weekend and picture them. Won't give away which I prefer so maybe a poll??

Just based upon percentages, the 65's should be better than the 85. (65/70 = 92.8% whereas 85/100 = 85%). By this yardstick, a CGS85 is roughly equivalent to a MS60, but I know which I'd rather have.

You can't compere these two grading systems, they are very different. MS 60 would hardly be CGS EF and to achieve CGS UNC 85 you will need (generally speaking)at least MS65 - ideally from PCGS.

I agree, the numbers are entirely arbitrary and therefore useless. The whole idea of a grading system is to take the guesswork out of grading.

[VickySilver 775]

I need to get these examples posted (the three specimen 1935s) and if Jr. lets me this evening will give it a shot....OK, enough punning.

[mike 5]

I would think that anyone with £1500 to spend on coins is not a junior collector, and should really know his own stuff, and be happy in him/herself that they are indeed looking at a Choice coin?

This was just one example, obviously this is happening with coins worth tenths of pounds as well. Also don't forget that lot of people are looking for alternative investments for their retirement etc. I am not advocating them but surly they should not be ripped off just because they are not experienced coin collectors (IMO).

[argentumandcoins 70]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

Mike,

I will keep it simple. I speak from experience as a dealer (many on here have bought from me and will vouch for my grading skills) and as an independent auction house consultant/cataloguer. Leaving aside points 1 and 2 in your reply I will go straight to 3.

London Coins set the auction estimates that the sheep will follow for their bidding, just as CGS set "prices" on coins they slab. It is very easy to massage prices when you control the guide book and the auction. That is a fact not an accusation.

Why not keep an eye on Lockdales as well because Dan quite often has a lot of Steves' unsolds or old stock in his catalogues.

I am a longstanding LC customer with a bidding number in the 200's and I have no axe to grind with the company at all but I do object to people trying to influence opinions with weak one-sided arguments, "transparency in the market" it is quite simple BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB!!!

One thing is plain in all of this, there is obviously a concerted effort by yourself, Bill and Divemaster to trumpet the virtues of slabbing to the detriment of collecting and the exhaltation of investing.

[Coinery 926]

I would think that anyone with £1500 to spend on coins is not a junior collector, and should really know his own stuff, and be happy in him/herself that they are indeed looking at a Choice coin?

This was just one example, obviously this is happening with coins worth tenths of pounds as well. Also don't forget that lot of people are looking for alternative investments for their retirement etc. I am not advocating them but surly they should not be ripped off just because they are not experienced coin collectors (IMO).

That's fair enough, but I wouldn't buy a diamond from someone as an investment, without learning at least the basics necessary to buy diamonds! If however I'm buying a diamond because I like the purple flash from its 4th facet, and I intend to keep it for its beauty alone, then all I have to be concerned with is whether I'm happy with the price I paid, because I was a collector first and foremost.

What makes for experience in coin collecting for me, is the ability to make fewer and fewer significant purchase errors, based on a number of factors, grade and price to name but two. Not forgetting there is also pleasure in this process...silly things like discovering there are actually 'raised' buckles on the boot of StGeorge on a 1935 Crown. You don't have that pleasure of discovery if someone else sells you a coin like a pint of milk.

My advice to all juniors who want to learn the art of grading, is to buy (and look) at a large number of 'uncirculated' cheap coins (G6/E2), that's the best way to painlessly learn these things. It would seem a real shame to me to chuck a newbie into slab collecting, without really knowing what it's all about first (and that's not to say I'm totally opposed to slab collecting...I do actually kind of get it)

You'll never come close to the joys of owning a classic car if all you've done is go out with a big wad of cash and buy the best E-Type you can find. Coin collecting is exactly the same in my opinion.

[Coinery 926]

(many on here have bought from me and will vouch for my grading skills)

Fully endorsed!

[Coinery 926]

Oooooooooooooooooooooooh Colin!

[Paulus 1,942]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

So 25,000 coins over 6 years at £12-£20 per coin (today's prices) gives a generous estimate of £70,000 revenue per year from coin grading - I'm sure that won't leave much after paying people and overheads! And the VAT man!!

Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how many the US TPGs have slabbed (by way of comparison?)

[pies 33]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

So 25,000 coins over 6 years at £12-£20 per coin (today's prices) gives a generous estimate of £70,000 revenue per year from coin grading - I'm sure that won't leave much after paying people and overheads! And the VAT man!!

Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how many the US TPGs have slabbed (by way of comparison?)

NGC have slabbed over 25 million. This is taken from there website FAQ section

Edited February 27, 2013 by pies

[Paulus 1,942]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

So 25,000 coins over 6 years at £12-£20 per coin (today's prices) gives a generous estimate of £70,000 revenue per year from coin grading - I'm sure that won't leave much after paying people and overheads! And the VAT man!!

Does anyone have a ballpark idea of how many the US TPGs have slabbed (by way of comparison?)

NGC have slabbed over 25 million. This is taken from there website FAQ section

Blimey, that's a 1000 X as many, thanks Pies!

Was Stuart Coinery 'OOOH'ing at you or a different Colin?

Edited February 27, 2013 by Paulus

[jaggy 528]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

Mike,

I will keep it simple. I speak from experience as a dealer (many on here have bought from me and will vouch for my grading skills) and as an independent auction house consultant/cataloguer. Leaving aside points 1 and 2 in your reply I will go straight to 3.

London Coins set the auction estimates that the sheep will follow for their bidding, just as CGS set "prices" on coins they slab. It is very easy to massage prices when you control the guide book and the auction. That is a fact not an accusation.

Why not keep an eye on Lockdales as well because Dan quite often has a lot of Steves' unsolds or old stock in his catalogues.

I am a longstanding LC customer with a bidding number in the 200's and I have no axe to grind with the company at all but I do object to people trying to influence opinions with weak one-sided arguments, "transparency in the market" it is quite simple BUY THE COIN NOT THE SLAB!!!

One thing is plain in all of this, there is obviously a concerted effort by yourself, Bill and Divemaster to trumpet the virtues of slabbing to the detriment of collecting and the exhaltation of investing.

I have to agree with this.

I am looking at a couple of coins on a Heritage auction at the moment and it is apparent to me that the coins do not live up to the grade that the slab is trumpeting. Thus I am bidding on the basis of what I think they are worth and not what they would be worth at the grade given on the slab.

That said, collectors are far better off today than they were pre-digital photography (which is when I acquired much of my collection). At least now we can generally have a good look at what we are buying and make up our own minds. In the past there was a greater degree of reliance on the integrity of the auctioneer or the dealer. For an experienced eye, a good photo makes slabbing unnecessary at least for collection purposes.

[Accumulator 52]

Bill & Mike, as stated above I can see both the pros and the cons of slabbing. Ultimately each individual will make their own choice, but I think it good for the UK market that we have our own TPG, for those that wish to use it.

Anyway, and more importantly, I'm sure I speak for most in saying that we are really pleased to have you here. Whilst some will disagree with you on the slabbing issue, there are many other lively discussions going on daily. I hope you will both stick around and join in!

[Coinery 926]

Was Stuart Coinery 'OOOH'ing at you or a different Colin?

It was a sort of 'oh, no, what have you gone and done, Colin' type of oooooooooooh! Colin the starter of the discussion!

[Paulus 1,942]

Was Stuart Coinery 'OOOH'ing at you or a different Colin?

It was a sort of 'oh, no, what have you gone and done, Colin' type of oooooooooooh! Colin the starter of the discussion!

Indeed! There are way too many Colins ... debates about slabbing on here are always the most heated and lively it seems! I have recently sent my first batch of coins to CGS 'as an experiment in grading, pricing and realising higher prices than currently' - but hopefully not an experiment in authenticating, which was what my only other previous dealings with CGS was about. I'll let you know the results!

[Nick 325]

Bill & Mike, as stated above I can see both the pros and the cons of slabbing. Ultimately each individual will make their own choice, but I think it good for the UK market that we have our own TPG, for those that wish to use it.

Anyway, and more importantly, I'm sure I speak for most in saying that we are really pleased to have you here. Whilst some will disagree with you on the slabbing issue, there are many other lively discussions going on daily. I hope you will both stick around and join in!

Nice coins are nice coins, slabbed or not. Always worthy of discussion.