CGS - A customer-facing business?

[divemaster 11]

I had collected coins for most of my life, then concentrated on crowns only as they just fascinated me. When i first came across an encapsulated (CGS) crown i was fascinated by the accuracy and confidence that it gave me in the coin. I then took the decision to submit my collection of 80 ish crowns for grading. I was horrified by some of the rejects due to spots, cleaning etc then even more horrified at some of the grading results! I was also pleased at some of the variants found within my collection, which i would never have noticed.

This has now totally altered my collecting, many will say i should have looked closer at the crowns when purchasing, but we all have to learn.

I now will purchase a CGS coin without prior viewing!

The other side to my character enjoys fighting for my position in the "League Tables" within the CGS website. I have also found all the other information within the CGS website extremely beneficial to my collecting.

[Peckris 579]

I understand the suggestion about getting a coin graded and allowing it to be 'outside' of the capsule. The problem then is who can guarantee the coin will be kept in the same condition? I bought a halfpenny at auction that had been removed from a CGS capsule, put into a flip plastic folder with the original CGS label (something I used to do when I removed coins from slabs). It had originally graded as UNC80 but on re-submission to CGS it graded as AU78. (I have always said if I took CGS encapsulated coins out of their capsules and submitted them to CGS as 'raw' coins they would probably end up with comparable grades - something I know does not happen with some of the USA Grading companies.) I would not have been surprised if the grade was even lower as in AU75 or even EF70 - the coin was no longer in its capsule and had been subject, albeit minimal, movement. How could I expect it to be the same grade after removal from the capsule?

Bill Pugsley

If the coin is noticeably worse than the encapsulated photo, then its owner has done themselves no favours (e.g. by incorrect handling or storage). Any buyer would see the coin is not the same condition (or even the same coin!) as its photo, and therefore either would not buy or - if having bought it already - would demand a refund. Such a system that I've proposed would actually encourage people to take proper care of their coins, as the greater the difference between coins and their photos, the more likely the value would not hold up.

Oh, and one more thing - the encapsulated photo would include close up enlargements of noticeable 'unique identifying features' (toning, spots, any scratches, EKs, variety pointings, etc), which would prevent fraud by substituting a different coin on resale.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Peckris

[jaggy 528]

This is an interesting discussion ......

As I said in a different thread, I recently came back to this hobby after a 15 year hiatus due to work and being transferred to the USA. I have a small collection of sixpences none of which are slabbed. They are kept in Leuchtterm trays in my safe which I find very convenient in that they do not take up a lot of space and I have easy access to enjoy them. I should also add that I buy for my own enjoyment and I have never sold a coin.

So, the question is ... to slab or not to slab?

And what should I do with slabbed coins that I do buy? Do I break the slab and integrate the coin with the rest of my collection, do I keep the slab and start up a parallel storage system or do I have all my coins slabbed (I have 84 Victoria sixpences alone).

My gut feeling is to break the slab. and integrate coins into my trays. But would appreciate any other points of view.

[Peter 615]

I have bought a few slabbed coins (no CGS)

As Peck briefed on low value coins being slabbed. Why?

I might consider slabbing a Gothic crown or Northumberland shilling should I wish to sell them.

I will continue to buy raw as a 1st choice.

[Accumulator 52]

This is an interesting discussion ......

As I said in a different thread, I recently came back to this hobby after a 15 year hiatus due to work and being transferred to the USA. I have a small collection of sixpences none of which are slabbed. They are kept in Leuchtterm trays in my safe which I find very convenient in that they do not take up a lot of space and I have easy access to enjoy them. I should also add that I buy for my own enjoyment and I have never sold a coin.

So, the question is ... to slab or not to slab?

And what should I do with slabbed coins that I do buy? Do I break the slab and integrate the coin with the rest of my collection, do I keep the slab and start up a parallel storage system or do I have all my coins slabbed (I have 84 Victoria sixpences alone).

My gut feeling is to break the slab. and integrate coins into my trays. But would appreciate any other points of view.

I have most of my pennies as raw coins in Quadrum capsules, in trays, but also quite a few slabbed by various TPGs. I know this won't appeal to the purists, but my collection has essentially become the photographs that I've taken. I can examine, sort and classify this 'virtual collection' at will, while the coins themselves are stored safely away.

[Coinery 926]

Thanks for your input, Bill, be good to hear the follow-up!

Just in support of Bill's & AC's point above, my 1950 NGC penny which was recently posted here, and freshly out of a slab, has the dreaded verd.!

CGS don't slab hammered...yet! Can you ask if they ever intend to, Bill?

[VickySilver 775]

jaggy, I would keep them unslabbedif its just for your consumption - you know what you have and aren't trying to sell so what would be the point? This comes from someone who is more or less middle of the road about slabs. You trust yourself and not some of the hamfisted dealers that perhaps you have seen...

[TomGoodheart 373]

Is it only milled coins they do Bill, or do they also do hammered?

Hi Azda,

They must do hammered as well as I'm sure I bought some CGS slabbed ones in the past.

As I've said before, I kinda feel that the problem with hammered is that a strict grade related to how much wear a coin has suffered over the years isn't always a very good indicator of whether the coin has 'eye appeal' (ie, whether someone would consider it an asset to their collection) or not.

That's not to say there couldn't be benefits to slabbing (in addition to protecting the coin from damage) if a variety was correctly identified, but the main one of the buyer being confident about the reliability of the grading of the coin doesn't attract me much because I don't buy coins dependent on their grade.

Plus there's that little niggle that, with a slab, you have the problem of if a coin came with old collectors' tickets, what do you do with them? AFAIK (from the one, previously PCGS slabbed, coin I own) US TPGS bin them. I've not bought a CGS slabbed coin, let alone one with tickets and provenance, so don't know how they would deal with it. Unslabbed coins, the tickets are just included in the envelope or 2"x2" and can then sit under the coin in your cabinet.

I guess it would be possible to design a slab that could also hold coin tickets for us er .., traditionalists. If there was a market for such things. But as for coin envelopes (Norweb anyone?) ...

Oh, and welcome Bill! Thanks for joining us - most enlightening!

Edited February 26, 2013 by TomGoodheart

[mike 5]

Me:...."Hello, is that CGS?"

CGS: (Bored Sounding bloke) "Yes"

Me: "Do you give discount for bulk orders"

CGS: "No"

Me: "Do you do any faster turnaround times than quoted...if I paid extra?"

CGS: "No"

Me: "I have tens of thousands of pounds worth of high value coins that I would like slabbed...ideally I dont want to use post, can I deliver them in person to your office?"

CGS: "No"

Hello Colin88

I was very surprised to learn about your experience. I always found CGS to be very helpful and professional. As far as I know the first two items on your list are true. However the third one is not (I am not doubting your phone call, just the fact itself) as people are dropping off coins for grading at their office all the time (as is the case with NGC and PCGS an appointment is required) and they take CGS consignments at most coins shows they do. I can confirm this from my personal experience. If I remember well DIVEMASTER even mentioned in another thread (CROWNS?) that before he had started having any coins graded by CGS he was able to book up to go and watch the grading process. IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit. I would not be put off by one phone call!

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Hi Azda,

They must do hammered as well as I'm sure I bought some CGS slabbed ones in the past.

CGS certainly undertake grading and authentication of hammered coins - I too have seen them. I find it enough of a pain making an assessment of a milled coin to want to move onto hammered coins (where arguably each one is unique).

Bill

[mike 5]

Is it only milled coins they do Bill, or do they also do hammered?

Hi Azda,

They must do hammered as well as I'm sure I bought some CGS slabbed ones in the past.

As I've said before, I kinda feel that the problem with hammered is that a strict grade related to how much wear a coin has suffered over the years isn't always a very good indicator of whether the coin has 'eye appeal' (ie, whether someone would consider it an asset to their collection) or not.

That's not to say there couldn't be benefits to slabbing (in addition to protecting the coin from damage) if a variety was correctly identified, but the main one of the buyer being confident about the reliability of the grading of the coin doesn't attract me much because I don't buy coins dependent on their grade.

Plus there's that little niggle that, with a slab, you have the problem of if a coin came with old collectors' tickets, what do you do with them? AFAIK (from the one, previously PCGS slabbed, coin I own) US TPGS bin them. I've not bought a CGS slabbed coin, let alone one with tickets and provenance, so don't know how they would deal with it. Unslabbed coins, the tickets are just included in the envelope or 2"x2" and can then sit under the coin in your cabinet.

I guess it would be possible to design a slab that could also hold coin tickets for us er .., traditionalists. If there was a market for such things. But as for coin envelopes (Norweb anyone?) ...

Oh, and welcome Bill! Thanks for joining us - most enlightening!

After providing evidence the provenance is recorded electronically and is available through "Coin Verification" on CGS website (you can see example below). However you have to keep old tickets separately.

CGS Coin Verification

Picture

UIN 0012831

Coin Type HD.V1.1858.01

Origin Great Britain

Description Halfpenny Victoria 1858

Variety 8 over 6

Standard References Peck 1547

Provenance Ex-Nicholson Collection BN371 2003 Ex-Colin Cooke 12/5/1983

Grade EF 70

Population Level 3 out of 4

Value £ 75

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Is it only milled coins they do Bill, or do they also do hammered?

Hi Azda,

They must do hammered as well as I'm sure I bought some CGS slabbed ones in the past.

As I've said before, I kinda feel that the problem with hammered is that a strict grade related to how much wear a coin has suffered over the years isn't always a very good indicator of whether the coin has 'eye appeal' (ie, whether someone would consider it an asset to their collection) or not.

That's not to say there couldn't be benefits to slabbing (in addition to protecting the coin from damage) if a variety was correctly identified, but the main one of the buyer being confident about the reliability of the grading of the coin doesn't attract me much because I don't buy coins dependent on their grade.

Plus there's that little niggle that, with a slab, you have the problem of if a coin came with old collectors' tickets, what do you do with them? AFAIK (from the one, previously PCGS slabbed, coin I own) US TPGS bin them. I've not bought a CGS slabbed coin, let alone one with tickets and provenance, so don't know how they would deal with it. Unslabbed coins, the tickets are just included in the envelope or 2"x2" and can then sit under the coin in your cabinet.

I guess it would be possible to design a slab that could also hold coin tickets for us er .., traditionalists. If there was a market for such things. But as for coin envelopes (Norweb anyone?) ...

Oh, and welcome Bill! Thanks for joining us - most enlightening!

I have taken to attaching a small 'dot' (you can buy in any stationery store) to the slab and then I separately keep my tickets, letters of provence etc in a separate folder by Unique Identification Number (the UIN on a CGS coin). I had thought about asking for a separate 'pouch' on the CGS capsule but for some of the information I have on provenance would not fit!

Apart from dealers tickets, where provenance is demonstrated (like when sold at a specific auction, letter from the Royal Mint etc) this will be added by CGS to the online record of the coin under the coins 'provenance'.

Thanksfor the welcome by the way.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

jaggy, I would keep them unslabbedif its just for your consumption - you know what you have and aren't trying to sell so what would be the point? This comes from someone who is more or less middle of the road about slabs. You trust yourself and not some of the hamfisted dealers that perhaps you have seen...

When I started getting my 'other slabbed' coins graded by CGS it was to get a uniform size capsule. I then moved onto getting what I thought were rarer more valuable coins graded (and I was shocked at some of the results - bad shocked, not good shocked!). The earlier the coin it appears the higher the grade attributed by some dealers. I have bought coins from a number of UK dealers and very few of them have been consistent and of a level commensurate with CGS results (some persistently have been bad).

I used to keep my 'raw' coins in capsules in pull-out trays and one day I pulled out a tray of bronze bun head pennies and thought one of the capsules looked strange. When I had put the coin in the capsule I had not been taking care and I had ended up with a 'beautiful' (sic) green tone across the surface of the coin from verdigris! I had obviously put the coin away when the air was full of moisture (an English summer rainy day!).

That is when I made the decision to get all my coins CGS graded.

I would add that if I want to show people my coins I can attach my PC to a TV screen and go through the CGS 'virtual gallery' of pictures of my coins - showing each side of the coin immediately before it was slabbed.

Bill

[TomGoodheart 373]

IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit.

Well ... maybe. But personally I'd have thought (that in the UK/Europe at least) a coin will find it's value dependant on what it is and the condition. I'd be surprised if many (any?) members here would pay any more just because a coin is slabbed.

Things are of course probably different in the US, given the market is quite different there too.

[HistoricCoinage 115]

IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit.

Well ... maybe. But personally I'd have thought (that in the UK/Europe at least) a coin will find it's value dependant on what it is and the condition. I'd be surprised if many (any?) members here would pay any more just because a coin is slabbed.

Amen. I've often considered slabbing some high grade but fairly common hammered coins for the US market but I cannot see a slab in the UK adding a significant percentage to the value or sale price.

[Peter 615]

How can a hammered be graded?It ain't going to happen.I often get mine out to play tiddly winks.There is so much to weigh up with hammered.

[1949threepence 3,366]

Really interesting and informed discussion about slabbing here.

Whilst I'm not personally that keen on slabbing, I can, nonetheless, see the attraction, especially from an investment perspective.

Bill mentioned the threat of competition from the USA, and with this in mind, I wonder if CGS need to more strongly emphasise their attention to detail, willingness to rectify rare errors, and accuracy of grading, in order to gain advantage over US rivals, who might be perceived as sloppy in their approach. Don't know ~ I'm no expert on these matters, but it is something that sprang immediately to mind. Once that aspiration for quality becomes synonymous with the organisation, they might be perceived as the centre of excellence, even to the extent of picking up trade from the US itself (although I appreciate the knowledge and familarity factor with US coins, would be an issue in this country)

The other issue about slabbing, which is an obvious bugbear to many ~ and Peck mentioned this ~ is the fact that once coins are slabbed, you can't get them out to look at them without smashing the slab. Also, you can't put them in a cabinet, nor can you look at them properly "in hand". Maybe some innovation could be developed, whereby coins could be detachable from the slab, but nevertheless, remain capable of verification once back inside and ready for trading. A barcode linked to a permanently stored high quality photo on a website, that any buyer could check before buying, to make absolutely certain it was the same coin, for example. Together with a hard copy certificate containing the same information and photo.

From what Colin said, it appears there may be a training need/customer service issue with the front facing staff. This is so vitally important to address when dealing with customers. Nobody likes to feel patronised, talked down to, or given technically incorrect information. Straight, easily understandable facts, delivered in a polite and friendly manner, is always a way to champion customer satisfaction.

By the way, welcome Bill, and thank you for your outstanding first day's input.

[mike 5]

IMO - if you have really high value coins (and you are going to sell them in auction) slabbing would add value and increase your profit.

Well ... maybe. But personally I'd have thought (that in the UK/Europe at least) a coin will find it's value dependant on what it is and the condition. I'd be surprised if many (any?) members here would pay any more just because a coin is slabbed.

Amen. I've often considered slabbing some high grade but fairly common hammered coins for the US market but I cannot see a slab in the UK adding a significant percentage to the value or sale price.

If you cannot see it I will give you self explanatory example: not so rare Decimal Twenty Pence undated mule S.4631A :

Current population report: 275 coins graded, 11 rejected. UNC88 - 1x, UNC85-2x, UNC82-7x, UNC80-25x, AU78-34x, AU75-45x, EF70-65x, EF65-88x and EF60-8x.

Number of coins sold in recent auctions in EF70 sold for around 50,- pounds, in AU75 for 55-65,- pounds, in AU78 for 65-70,- pounds (all without BP)

Example in grade UNC 80 (LCA 135, 4/12/11, lot1116) sold for 85,- pounds + BP

Example in grade UNC 82 (LCA 135, 4/12/11, lot1117) sold for 160,- pounds + BP

Example in grade UNC 88 - finest known (LCA 137, 3/6/12, lot420) sold for 420,- pounds + BP

I am sure the vendor was pleased he has had his coin slabbed...

[Peckris 579]

...

Edited February 26, 2013 by Peckris

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Really interesting and informed discussion about slabbing here.

Whilst I'm not personally that keen on slabbing, I can, nonetheless, see the attraction, especially from an investment perspective.

Bill mentioned the threat of competition from the USA, and with this in mind, I wonder if CGS need to more strongly emphasise their attention to detail, willingness to rectify rare errors, and accuracy of grading, in order to gain advantage over US rivals, who might be perceived as sloppy in their approach. Don't know ~ I'm no expert on these matters, but it is something that sprang immediately to mind. Once that aspiration for quality becomes synonymous with the organisation, they might be perceived as the centre of excellence, even to the extent of picking up trade from the US itself (although I appreciate the knowledge and familarity factor with US coins, would be an issue in this country)

The other issue about slabbing, which is an obvious bugbear to many ~ and Peck mentioned this ~ is the fact that once coins are slabbed, you can't get them out to look at them without smashing the slab. Also, you can't put them in a cabinet, nor can you look at them properly "in hand". Maybe some innovation could be developed, whereby coins could be detachable from the slab, but nevertheless, remain capable of verification once back inside and ready for trading. A barcode linked to a permanently stored high quality photo on a website, that any buyer could check before buying, to make absolutely certain it was the same coin, for example. Together with a hard copy certificate containing the same information and photo.

From what Colin said, it appears there may be a training need/customer service issue with the front facing staff. This is so vitally important to address when dealing with customers. Nobody likes to feel patronised, talked down to, or given technically incorrect information. Straight, easily understandable facts, delivered in a polite and friendly manner, is always a way to champion customer satisfaction.

By the way, welcome Bill, and thank you for your outstanding first day's input.

Many companies have had serious issues with customer facing staff. As said, I will be raising the 'telephone conversation' during the CGS forum meeting on Saturday.

In my opinion the quality of the CGS graded coin service is beginning to get the traction it deserves. More people have come to realize that CGS does understand UK coins and has a consistent approach to grading (seeing their reference sets of coins was a revelation and represents a significant investment by CGS in their business). It is not until you see six apparently uncirculated with full lustre George V bronze pennies and see them designated as VF to UNC and begin to examine them closely so see 'why' the disparity in grades. Yet many dealers would have said all six were uncirculated - not so with CGS.

As to grading - my first article in Coin News dealt with the issues I had with subjective grading. If you had two halfcrowns - say 1902 and 1905 - of equal wear I bet many people would describe the 1905 as a better grade than the 1902 because human nature is fickle. My own 1905 half crown was sold to me some years ago by a dealer who described it as Almost Uncirculated (AU) yet CGS graded it as VF55 (and I was initially gutted, then I discovered that CGS has yet to grade many 1905 half crowns at much better than VF!).

While on the matter of grading CGS will 'not grade and slab' at shows (unlike some US companies). They insist that all grading is done in a controlled lighting environment with access to their reference sets.

I do whole heartedly accept that grading with slabbing is not for everyone. I welcome debate on the matter and any reasonable critique of the CGS service should be shared (because only by being informed will CGS continue to improve). Keep the observations coming!

Bill

[Peckris 579]

Really interesting and informed discussion about slabbing here.

Whilst I'm not personally that keen on slabbing, I can, nonetheless, see the attraction, especially from an investment perspective.

Bill mentioned the threat of competition from the USA, and with this in mind, I wonder if CGS need to more strongly emphasise their attention to detail, willingness to rectify rare errors, and accuracy of grading, in order to gain advantage over US rivals, who might be perceived as sloppy in their approach. Don't know ~ I'm no expert on these matters, but it is something that sprang immediately to mind. Once that aspiration for quality becomes synonymous with the organisation, they might be perceived as the centre of excellence, even to the extent of picking up trade from the US itself (although I appreciate the knowledge and familarity factor with US coins, would be an issue in this country)

The other issue about slabbing, which is an obvious bugbear to many ~ and Peck mentioned this ~ is the fact that once coins are slabbed, you can't get them out to look at them without smashing the slab. Also, you can't put them in a cabinet, nor can you look at them properly "in hand". Maybe some innovation could be developed, whereby coins could be detachable from the slab, but nevertheless, remain capable of verification once back inside and ready for trading. A barcode linked to a permanently stored high quality photo on a website, that any buyer could check before buying, to make absolutely certain it was the same coin, for example. Together with a hard copy certificate containing the same information and photo.

From what Colin said, it appears there may be a training need/customer service issue with the front facing staff. This is so vitally important to address when dealing with customers. Nobody likes to feel patronised, talked down to, or given technically incorrect information. Straight, easily understandable facts, delivered in a polite and friendly manner, is always a way to champion customer satisfaction.

By the way, welcome Bill, and thank you for your outstanding first day's input.

Tabbing quickly (as one does) from here to Facebook and back, I keep looking for the "Like" button here and then saying sternly to myself, "This isn't FB or Twitter!". Then, all of a sudden, I noticed a tiny green + sign and red - sign just above the reply button. I must have seen it literally 000's of times, but it appears we can after all Like a post by clicking + (or not liking it by clicking -). So, emboldened by this discovery, and NEVER HAVING USED IT BEFORE, NEVER NEVER NEVER, I clicked the + sign above this post, and got the following message :

"Action failed: You have reached your quota of positive votes for the day"

Oh, the quota of "Like" votes is precisely 0, then?

[Coinery 926]

The hammered thing must be new, I've never seen that on their site, nor ever seen a CGS hammered slab!

Also, just as another point of interest, don't CGS slab on 'rainy summer's days' then? Do they encapsulate in specialist environments? Do they decontaminate the coins of all the environmentsl cancers pre-slabbing? I've often wondered what's being locked away with the coin to wreak havoc 20 years from now?

[numismatist 2]

Very interesting discussion, I am totally against encapsulation but do accept

that other Collectors are all for it. The points made about the dreaded Verdigris

made me wonder if the slabbing process can actually introduce it ?. From what I

see coins are handled with bare hands, graders can cough and splutter all over

the Coins they are slabbing (They are bound get have coughs and colds at times )

and whatever moisture there may be on a coin is sealed in the slab with it as it

seems the slab must contain whatever air there is in the room at the time.When

Coins are kept in a Cabinet they can breath and dry out if there is any minute

damp introduced. Am I right in thininking slabbed Coins are never vacuum sealed.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Very interesting discussion, I am totally against encapsulation but do accept

that other Collectors are all for it. The points made about the dreaded Verdigris

made me wonder if the slabbing process can actually introduce it ?. From what I

see coins are handled with bare hands, graders can cough and splutter all over

the Coins they are slabbing (They are bound get have coughs and colds at times )

and whatever moisture there may be on a coin is sealed in the slab with it as it

seems the slab must contain whatever air there is in the room at the time.When

Coins are kept in a Cabinet they can breath and dry out if there is any minute

damp introduced. Am I right in thininking slabbed Coins are never vacuum sealed.

An excellent observation! Some of the early UK proof sets from 1971 in their 'sealed' Royal Mint containers were impaired because of the air (and glue) used to seal the capsules.

Having seen the slabbing process I know virtually all of the air is removed when the coin is encapsulated but not all of it. I am no chemist but I could imagine that there is still sufficient air in the slab that if moisture is present could lead to blemishes (verdigris or other corrosion) of the coin itself. Ideally each coin should be slabbed in an 'inert' gas or vacuum but that would lead to a significant increase in cost for the process (clean air room and Health & Safety of encapsulators).

The fall back is the guarantee of the grading company. CGS are unequivocal in their guarantee - if the coin is 'wrong' or it suffers in the capsule (and so long as the capsule is not damaged by outside influence) they will pay up the value of the coin. Having graded nearly 25,000 that is a serious undertaking.

[numismatist 2]

Thanks Bill, nice to read all your input on this subject. Ive seen a video

where NGC shows their slabbing process and it would seem contamination can

easily get inside. As regards the various Coin Slabbing Company Guarantees

I wonder if these are "watertight" with an independant Insurers warranty as

over the years many Limited Companies close down, change hands, or go under

so unless a lifetime independant Insurance Policy is in effect its unlikely

any Guarantee can be relied on long term ? Its nice if CGS grading is very

consistant, as with others grading companies I see their Coins when they

turn up in the Large London Auctions rarely get graded anywhere near to the

grade on the capsule and seeing that even the major auctions are very often

overgraded it makes some encapsulated grades serious out on an acceptable

UK grading standard . In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST

large dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days.