VERY RARE OR VERY FAKE?

[RENNES 0]

Hi,

does anyone have any ideas what this coin is?

Facts;

Its 28mm, and it weighs 6.6 g

And its a French coin Louis XIV.

Its dated 1693.

and in theory silver.

From what I can see there is no re-strike evidence.

I know the coin is from the Ecu series of French Royals.

The circled (9) in the middle is the atelier mark of Rennes, which indicates it was minted in Rennes.

For the life of me I cannot find another example of this coin ANYWHERE!!!

Gadoury shows no 1693 1/4 écu aux 8 L minted in Rennes (mintmark 9). That year the 1/4 écu aux 8 L was minted in Lyons, La Rochelle, Montpellier, Riom, Dijon, Bourges and Troyes thru September.

Please if anyone knows any information or someone who may please say.

I have been banging my head against the wall with this coin for too long now.

It was purchased as a 1693 1/4 écu aux 8 L (9)

As I said before Gadoury shows no reference, les Franc theres no reference.

my example shows a crown design unlike any other of the 1/4 Ecus from the series.

Is it very rare or very fake?

I would be most grateful with any advice or information.

[RENNES 0]

Also if anyone has an idea on a grade. I appreciate the majority here are specialist in coins of the UK.

France isnt far.. and i was hoping someone could help.

thanks

[RENNES 0]

Also if anyone has an idea on a grade. I appreciate the majority here are specialist in coins of the UK.

France isnt far.. and i was hoping someone could help.

thanks

[RENNES 0]

here is example from the year before from different mint as far as Im aware they all were like this.

The crown design on mine is more similar that of Louis ecu d or (Gold).

[Rob 3,002]

davidrj is your best bet as he collects some French pieces and has the reference books. He generally turns up on the forum in the early hours of the morning.

[bagerap 706]

Rotate the coin 180 degrees. If you look at others in the Ecu series you will find that the letters CHRS appear in the top right hand quadrant. As to what that makes it I have no idea, unless someone has been altering an Aix ampersand mintmark.

[RENNES 0]

Great observation.

After rotating the coin 180 degrees I end up with the same orientation as the rest of series.

Which makes a 6 instead of the 9! Which isnt correct!?

Its a difficult one,

I fell at the first hurdle of no reference.

[RENNES 0]

ok so here is a 1692 with the same crown design. So that solves the question of my example showing a different design.

Also the (9) is positioned the same as manner, so thats a bonus too!!

[RENNES 0]

et voila!

[bagerap 706]

Merde! Retour à la planche à dessin.

[azda 973]

Grades don't change when you leave the UK. My opinion NVF

[scott 129]

that 1692 is overstruck on something.

just because there is no information, doesnt mean it doesnt exist of course.

Edited February 12, 2013 by scott

[RENNES 0]

If I had to guess id say the 1692 was overstruck on a previous example with a similar design as the coin.

[RENNES 0]

Ok,

I have found another coin from this series also not referenced, in a similar condition.

Description:

LOUIS XIV

1/4 to 8 L of shield, first definitive type, bust of Poitiers. 1692 G

Diameter of 28.22 mm, slice coordinated.

Obverse: LVD.XIIII. D. G (Solei) the FR. AND. NAV. REX. 1,692

Reverse: CHRS - REGN - VINC - IMP (5 star rays)

State: VF

Not listed for this vintage. (R5)

Price 1,280,00 Euros

http://www.montay-numismatique.fr/louis-1692-poitiers-p-4261.html

this is good news i think

[RENNES 0]

Yet another source!

No reference.

http://www.albertis.fr/topic1/index.html

[RENNES 0]

Yet another source!

No reference.

http://www.albertis.fr/topic1/index.html

Oooops !

http://www.albertis.fr/14ecu/index.html

[davidrj 194]

I'm no expert on french silver, I only dabble in copper and bronze, but I do have a library of single country catalogues

This is from "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers

looks like your coin (ref 614 9) - the nine is inverted on this issue.

"fn" = flan neuf (new flan); "rf" = refrappe (restrike on earlier issue)

values are in Euros - note no value quoted for the 1693 9 - so maybe your coin is rare if genuine! or it may just be no record of recent sale - many French coins are only known from just 1 or 2 examples so difficult to price

suggest you email the editor with a decent set of photos - frederic.droulers@free.fr

Hope this helps, let us know if you find out more

david

Edited February 12, 2013 by davidrj

[RENNES 0]

I'm no expert on french silver, I only dabble in copper and bronze, but I do have a library of single country catalogues

This is from "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers

looks like your coin (ref 614 9) - the nine is inverted on this issue.

"fn" = flan neuf (new flan); "rf" = refrappe (restrike on earlier issue)

values are in Euros - note no value quoted for the 1693 9 - so maybe your coin is rare if genuine! or it may just be no record of recent sale - many French coins are only known from just 1 or 2 examples so difficult to price

suggest you email the editor with a decent set of photos - frederic.droulers@free.fr

Hope this helps, let us know if you find out more

david

Exellent! Thankyou very much for providing that information davidrj. Thats great news and a big help. (how does the saying go? buy the book nefore the coin)

Louis seems quite character! Just like all 16th Kings i suppose, Looks like he was busy fighting in 1693 in Belgium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France

I emailed the editor, and some other specialist in France.

I'll post the response here.

Many thanks.

#walks towards the door and slowly turns

one other question!

#the assembly gasps

in the listing provided by davidrj it states "36.384 rf"

"rf" = refrappe (restrike on earlier issue)

does my example show evidence of this??

:unsure:

[Peckris 579]

I'm no expert on french silver, I only dabble in copper and bronze, but I do have a library of single country catalogues

This is from "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers

looks like your coin (ref 614 9) - the nine is inverted on this issue.

"fn" = flan neuf (new flan); "rf" = refrappe (restrike on earlier issue)

values are in Euros - note no value quoted for the 1693 9 - so maybe your coin is rare if genuine! or it may just be no record of recent sale - many French coins are only known from just 1 or 2 examples so difficult to price

suggest you email the editor with a decent set of photos - frederic.droulers@free.fr

Hope this helps, let us know if you find out more

david

Exellent! Thankyou very much for providing that information davidrj. Thats great news and a big help. (how does the saying go? buy the book nefore the coin)

Louis seems quite character! Just like all 16th Kings i suppose, Looks like he was busy fighting in 1693 in Belgium.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_XIV_of_France

I emailed the editor, and some other specialist in France.

I'll post the response here.

Many thanks.

#walks towards the door and slowly turns

one other question!

#the assembly gasps

in the listing provided by davidrj it states "36.384 rf"

"rf" = refrappe (restrike on earlier issue)

does my example show evidence of this??

:unsure:

C'est possible, peut-être? Mais il n'est pas très clair, à mes yeux!

[RENNES 0]

Hello.

After emailing the editor of the "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers.

Frederic Droulers replied saying my example is the first encountered.

Making it the finest known!! He also explained its not from a rare type. (even though there isnt another known example) from the 36,384 minted.

Im not dis-crediting his judgement but how can it not be rare without another known example.

his words

"Yes this is the retail price.Although your coin is unique so far ,it doen't belong to a very rare type.

The star after the IMP indicates it's an overstruck piece,well done in this case because there is not

much evidence of it.

Regards

F.DROULERS"

Im still waiting for responses from the others.

One guy emailed me and asked how much I want for it or how much do i think its worth...

im thinking to myself whats going on here!!!???

Azda, your opinion on the grade seems to be a shared one. thankyou.

[davidrj 194]

Hello.

After emailing the editor of the "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers.

Frederic Droulers replied saying my example is the first encountered.

Making it the finest known!! He also explained its not from a rare type. (even though there isnt another known example) from the 36,384 minted.

Im not dis-crediting his judgement but how can it not be rare without another known example.

his words

"Yes this is the retail price.Although your coin is unique so far ,it doen't belong to a very rare type.

The star after the IMP indicates it's an overstruck piece,well done in this case because there is not

much evidence of it.

Regards

F.DROULERS"

Im still waiting for responses from the others.

One guy emailed me and asked how much I want for it or how much do i think its worth...

im thinking to myself whats going on here!!!???

Azda, your opinion on the grade seems to be a shared one. thankyou.

A lot of French coins are rare, so assembling a complete date/mint run for most issues prior to the second Empire (Louis Napoleon 1952-1870) is unattainable even with deep pockets, thus most french collectors collect Royalissues by type

[RENNES 0]

Hello.

After emailing the editor of the "Repetoire general des monnaies de Louis XIII a Louis XVI" 5th ed 2012 edited by Frederic Droulers.

Frederic Droulers replied saying my example is the first encountered.

Making it the finest known!! He also explained its not from a rare type. (even though there isnt another known example) from the 36,384 minted.

Im not dis-crediting his judgement but how can it not be rare without another known example.

his words

"Yes this is the retail price.Although your coin is unique so far ,it doen't belong to a very rare type.

The star after the IMP indicates it's an overstruck piece,well done in this case because there is not

much evidence of it.

Regards

F.DROULERS"

Im still waiting for responses from the others.

One guy emailed me and asked how much I want for it or how much do i think its worth...

im thinking to myself whats going on here!!!???

Azda, your opinion on the grade seems to be a shared one. thankyou.

Is this suitable for sending to PCGS for verification and grading.

What possibly could have happened to the remainder of the mintage all 36,383 left!

Is that figure to be taken as gospel? (again not discrediting the judgement of an obvious expert over myself however, a dealer explained to me today he has encountered a fair amount of information and figure in this publication to be innaccurate.

I suppose it will be equally as "rare" to find a collector who wants this coin as it is to find the peice itself. It was still an exellent purchase though my best yet, very cheap considering. It was in the bottom of a jar of coins on first sights i couldnt resist and the in-expensive price tag closed the deal.

[davidrj 194]

Is this suitable for sending to PCGS for verification and grading.

Might be your best option, there are US collectors

What possibly could have happened to the remainder of the mintage all 36,383 left!

Is that figure to be taken as gospel? (again not discrediting the judgement of an obvious expert over myself however, a dealer explained to me today he has encountered a fair amount of information and figure in this publication to be innaccurate.

A revolution, napoleonic wars, franco-prussian war, WW1, WW2 - hard times - most will have ended in the melting pot, as I said above there are lots of coins where no or very few examples are known, new discoveries frequently appear in CGB's Numismatic bulletin

Mint records in france are often unreliable, so all mintages should be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt

Droulers gives far more useful info than Gadoury in my opinion, but horses for courses

French collectors are different, die varieties are nowhere near as popular as here in the UK

[RENNES 0]

good points Davidrj thanks!

Il shall keep an eye on the CGB bulletin.

shame it wasnt this coin:

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&coin=Penny+1797+George+III&uin=0008707

I think i will send mine to PCGS. I also think I would be doing very well to replace it with a coin similar to this;

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=retailv2_details&coin=Penny+1858+Victoria&uin=0020561

Also thankyou very much everyone for your help.

[Peckris 579]

Is this suitable for sending to PCGS for verification and grading.

Might be your best option, there are US collectors

What possibly could have happened to the remainder of the mintage all 36,383 left!

Is that figure to be taken as gospel? (again not discrediting the judgement of an obvious expert over myself however, a dealer explained to me today he has encountered a fair amount of information and figure in this publication to be innaccurate.

A revolution, napoleonic wars, franco-prussian war, WW1, WW2 - hard times - most will have ended in the melting pot, as I said above there are lots of coins where no or very few examples are known, new discoveries frequently appear in CGB's Numismatic bulletin

Mint records in france are often unreliable, so all mintages should be taken with the proverbial pinch of salt

Droulers gives far more useful info than Gadoury in my opinion, but horses for courses

French collectors are different, die varieties are nowhere near as popular as here in the UK

Vive la différence!