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I Note from 1949s post just above of the criteria for MS grading that they actually take into consideration COLOR? WHY? Wtf has colour got to do with strike/wear which is what grading is about......

They also take into account "eye appeal", which makes Nick's sixpence an epic fail for MS67 :ph34r:

Lmfao..........Eye appeal to earn a point or 4 woohoooooooo, no wonder the americans use petrol to enhance their coins then

It's actually no more than a not very good looking NEF. That's the reality. If it's really been graded MS67, then something is not quite right IMO.

Its basically a money making racket, when you have a monopoly and the sheep follow your every say so then the sheep will buy at the grade you tell them it is and believe your every word. In reality i'd rather have a raw coin and know in my own head what a coin is graded at. I think some of those TPGs are taking the piss in the US of A and i hope Mr Vicky Silver won't take offence or have a hissy fit, but that's not MS67 in anyones eyes, although his observation on this grade would definately be worth reading :rolleyes:

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Ah yes, well speak of the devil...LOL

That coin is IMO mint state with a very soft strike through the bow at bottom of wreath. This is not wear. The obverse is a bit soft through the hair & the brow area, for example, is also soft and NOT wear. So a technical grade would be in the 60-70 range. To narrow it down: very little in the way of distracting actual marks, but the toning makes it hard to determine if there not be lesser areas of "bag marks" - I have to guess since the coin is not in hand that they are there, however. I do not have a problem with 63-4. This is not a gem (65) or superb (67). Toning colour looks acceptable and neither outstanding or necessarily artificial.

So I think this would reflect overall the colour, strike, metal quality (as best as can be determined), and overall eye appeal is decent.

Have to weasel on the 63 or 64 designation without it being in hand. As far as value, I am not going to pretend to guess what it would go for but I would tend to opt for possibly 300-350 pounds and do not see 1k as being reasonable.

I have in the past had some major disagreements with NGC 6d and 1/- grading on later milled, and PCGS also seems to have a spread of often 2-3 points high or low of what I might attribute when speaking of a coin I have no interest or stake in. Generally, I would say the PCGS grades are a bit more conservative, but NOT always. An example would be some of the pieces graded for the "Millennium Collection" of some 4 years ago. Another example is the 1854 6d that was in the Cheshire sale (by memory) that was UNDERGRADED IMO as there appears to have been clashmarks responsible for some of the downgrading to a 63. That was a superior piece, and probably a "65". I saw recently an ex-Spink SNC 1848/6 shilling in NGC 58 that had only minimal bag marks, excellent strike, colour, metal and eye appeal which I would have given a certain GEF or 63 to.

A conservative GEF might quite often reach "63", a very conservative such as Glendining GEF from the grand olde days might even reach 64 or 65. The coin graded 1926 ME in MS65RB (PCGS) is a superior piece that was originally a Spink SNC GEF - the colour on that quite original and showing a silky lustre and one of the nicest 20th C. coins I have seen.

Point being that these numbers are not perfect and certainly open to debate but, I at least, have rarely seen a later milled coin that was graded 65 by either of the two above services that would not generally be considered a nice piece with decent appeal and GEF to mint. I do not see them grading cleaned, hairlined bits that might otherwise be called VF cleaned or some such.

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So Mr Silver, comparing the NGC graded MS63 sold at Londons for £150 in 2011 to this one with its HUGE estimate 1 year later, seems to me that its a little OTT no?

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I'm a buyer at 150, too cheap IMO. 1k over the top.

BTW, I am not an advocate of fancy catalogue prices, high or low.

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

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I must have a few 70's then :o

IMO the £150 MS63 is far superior.

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I must have a few 70's then :o

IMO the £150 MS63 is far superior.

Thats what i thought as well Peter

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

And it's sitting at $625 thats 385 GBP :ph34r: crazy coin world

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

And it's sitting at $625 thats 385 GBP :ph34r: crazy coin world

I'd have said £300 absolute tops, and even that would be generous given its appearance!!!

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1835 Sixpence in Spink 2013 as follows F 15 VF 30 EF 160 UNC 400

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

And it's sitting at $625 thats 385 GBP :ph34r: crazy coin world

I'd have said £300 absolute tops, and even that would be generous given its appearance!!!

Clearly a business opportunity. Buy any unattractive big numbered slab at fair value and consign via Heritage. Could work wonders for the UK's balance of payments. :)

On the question of the grade though, I still wonder how they get to MS67 with the obvious rim mark. The coin isn't heavy enough to have suffered the defect falling into the hopper. It has to be post Mint damage.

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

And it's sitting at $625 thats 385 GBP :ph34r: crazy coin world

I'd have said £300 absolute tops, and even that would be generous given its appearance!!!

Clearly a business opportunity. Buy any unattractive big numbered slab at fair value and consign via Heritage. Could work wonders for the UK's balance of payments. :)

On the question of the grade though, I still wonder how they get to MS67 with the obvious rim mark. The coin isn't heavy enough to have suffered the defect falling into the hopper. It has to be post Mint damage.

I think the business opportunity comes from buying a raw coin, getting it slabbed by PCGS etc then shipping it over to heritage for a 4 fold increase in price. Everyone's a winner, i get 4x what i paid and an American gets a slabbed coin :rolleyes:

In the Spink 2013, back page, it gives you advice how to join PCGS Europe and have your coins graded/slabbed in Paris where their new office is. I may just do that and get some coins slabbed and shipped out to Heritage B)

www.pcgseurope.com you have to join the collectors club to be able to submit the coins yourself any time of the year, you also get the first 8 coins slabbed free if you join the diamond club, 4 coins for the lowest entry level

Edited by azda

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Anyway, I've found it on Heritage's website ~ here

........and it's MS64, not MS67. Still overgraded I reckon.

Sorry, tell a lie. It is MS67 after all ~ was looking at the wrong bit. The right one is here

Extraordinary.

And it's sitting at $625 thats 385 GBP :ph34r: crazy coin world

I'd have said £300 absolute tops, and even that would be generous given its appearance!!!

Clearly a business opportunity. Buy any unattractive big numbered slab at fair value and consign via Heritage. Could work wonders for the UK's balance of payments. :)

On the question of the grade though, I still wonder how they get to MS67 with the obvious rim mark. The coin isn't heavy enough to have suffered the defect falling into the hopper. It has to be post Mint damage.

I think the business opportunity comes from buying a raw coin, getting it slabbed by PCGS etc then shipping it over to heritage for a 4 fold increase in price. Everyone's a winner, i get 4x what i paid and an American gets a slabbed coin :rolleyes:

In the Spink 2013, back page, it gives you advice how to join PCGS Europe and have your coins graded/slabbed in Paris where their new office is. I may just do that and get some coins slabbed and shipped out to Heritage B)

www.pcgseurope.com you have to join the collectors club to be able to submit the coins yourself any time of the year, you also get the first 8 coins slabbed free if you join the diamond club, 4 coins for the lowest entry level

Heritage are the way to go! Elizabeth I slabs sell for a silly amount over there!

Whenever I'm searching google images for particular coins, if I ever find a Heritage image, I always 'go in' for a look, just for the $$$ wow factor!

Don't Heritage actually offer the slabbing process as part of their service, or did I just dream that one day?

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Looked at the coin through www.sixbid.com It is PCGS and is graded 67. Seems optimistic to me, although on blowup certainly doesn't look bad - maybe 65.

Not sure if that is an edge ding down toward 8 o'clock on reverse as it looks like "milling breakthrough" & seems to coincide with the "V" in the milling at that point.

Be prepared to be shocked with some of your submissions as many will get rejected for cleaning or the "Genuine, details" as MANY will be. Also, when it comes to grades there is a funny phenomenon where your own coins seem to be "degraded" in comparo to others - always tremendously easy to criticize others numbers, and I have been guilty of same. I really want to know the truth of your submissions once you get them back as I would not be surprised for them to be chock full of disappointments.

Edited by VickySilver

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Slabbing with a TPGer is like a lottery. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose out big time. Myself I haven't slabbed any because things can go wrong. A lot of things end up just getting slabbed "genuine" due to some obscure defect ranging from cleaning (despite the fact that other coins with the same amount of cleaning can be slabbed...) or even questionable toning.

I've also noticed that NGC/PCGS seem to grade on a curve with older coins getting better grades than newer coins even though they are in the same exact state of preservation.

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Slabbing with a TPGer is like a lottery. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose out big time. Myself I haven't slabbed any because things can go wrong. A lot of things end up just getting slabbed "genuine" due to some obscure defect ranging from cleaning (despite the fact that other coins with the same amount of cleaning can be slabbed...) or even questionable toning.

I've also noticed that NGC/PCGS seem to grade on a curve with older coins getting better grades than newer coins even though they are in the same exact state of preservation.

They are not the only ones guilty of this.

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Slabbing with a TPGer is like a lottery. Sometimes you win big, sometimes you lose out big time. Myself I haven't slabbed any because things can go wrong. A lot of things end up just getting slabbed "genuine" due to some obscure defect ranging from cleaning (despite the fact that other coins with the same amount of cleaning can be slabbed...) or even questionable toning.

I've also noticed that NGC/PCGS seem to grade on a curve with older coins getting better grades than newer coins even though they are in the same exact state of preservation.

I bought a George III pattern halfpenny off a US collector which was slabbed PF61 and a label attached saying it was recommended for 'conservation'. I also have another coin of the same type which was in a PF65 slab as sold in the 'Cheshire Collection'. This was squeaky clean and probably too clean for its age. The lower graded coin had the more original surface in my opinion, and there was no real difference in the marks or strike quality. I would go so far as to say that the lower grade coin was marked down on the grounds that it hadn't been 'conserved'/cleaned/choose you own term. 4 points of difference is a huge margin when there is nothing wrong with the metal fabric of either coin. It is as you say, a lottery.

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The major USA TPG companies offer a cleaning service prior to slabbing :o

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The major USA TPG companies offer a cleaning service prior to slabbing :o

Wrong c word. Conserving.

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All good points to be sure. I think the number assigned, if at least by NGC or PCGS or maybe CGS, can be taken under advice and each should come to their own conclusion. I have seen coins rejected that have nothing objectionable or remarkable to an astute collector...

One example I saw is an 1871 bunhead, brown but with lustre and no wear with few bagmarks. Because there was a minimal planchet delamination in the field, it was rejected. An GEF example for sure.

So, are they (the TPGs) a bane or a blessing? No easy answer...

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They are here to stay.

I always just buy the coin.Another thread I read last night was a US chap buying up ColinCookes George V1 farthings (several in top grade

of each date)submitting the best to get better than MS64.

So we have a £4 coin being slabbed for £15.

Surely still only worth £4?

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They are here to stay.

I always just buy the coin.Another thread I read last night was a US chap buying up ColinCookes George V1 farthings (several in top grade

of each date)submitting the best to get better than MS64.

So we have a £4 coin being slabbed for £15.

Surely still only worth £4?

Hmmm.....it's what it will sell for in the States once slabbed and with a high MS number attached to it, that seemingly counts the most, Peter.

Obviously slabbed coins here, do not carry anything like the cache they do in the US. So whilst we remain unimpressed by slabs, they are highly sought after over the pond.

A precursor of much higher prices across the board possibly ? I don't know. But it makes some of the coins we've obtained here, look quite low priced for what they are, to be honest. Slabbing rejections for various faults, notwithstanding.

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Incidentally, scroll down to 1835 on this list

Colin Cooke is selling a gem 1835 shilling for £375 ~ actually £337.50 until tomorrow, with the 10% Christmas discount applied.

No mottling or stains on that coin. Absolutely the real deal.

Wonder what MS grade that would get ?

edit: I don't think it's been dipped.

Edited by 1949threepence

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Incidentally, scroll down to 1835 on this list

Colin Cooke is selling a gem 1835 shilling for £375 ~ actually £337.50 until tomorrow, with the 10% Christmas discount applied.

No mottling or stains on that coin. Absolutely the real deal.

Wonder what MS grade that would get ?

edit: I don't think it's been dipped.

Still with that weak strike on the hair though...

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Incidentally, scroll down to 1835 on this list

Colin Cooke is selling a gem 1835 shilling for £375 ~ actually £337.50 until tomorrow, with the 10% Christmas discount applied.

No mottling or stains on that coin. Absolutely the real deal.

Wonder what MS grade that would get ?

edit: I don't think it's been dipped.

Still with that weak strike on the hair though...

Yeah, but you have to admit, looks orders of magnitude better than the Heritage specimen ;)

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