KN planchets on normal issues?

[scott 129]

we all know the KN planchet, you can spot a KN penny from a mile off just looking at the obverse, however a strange one happened today, bought a bunch of coins (was a nice VF+ first type george was 1917 but thatw as by the by) as in packaging it came in stapled stuff to keep them seperate, however this one red looking worn penny had moved behind the 1917, (so i couldn't see the date)

first thing i thought was, hey a KN,

got in... took it out, turned it over... 1919, no letters at all.

now i possibly have seen old 1912 H filter through to 1913.

but never something like this.

screenshots will come at some point soon BUT was wondering if anyone knows about such things.

[Peckris 579]

we all know the KN planchet, you can spot a KN penny from a mile off just looking at the obverse, however a strange one happened today, bought a bunch of coins (was a nice VF+ first type george was 1917 but thatw as by the by) as in packaging it came in stapled stuff to keep them seperate, however this one red looking worn penny had moved behind the 1917, (so i couldn't see the date)

first thing i thought was, hey a KN,

got in... took it out, turned it over... 1919, no letters at all.

now i possibly have seen old 1912 H filter through to 1913.

but never something like this.

screenshots will come at some point soon BUT was wondering if anyone knows about such things.

Yes indeed - Freeman mentions in his introduction that Kings Norton supplied blanks to the Royal Mint for the whole period from 1912 to 1919. I had often noticed that characteristic 'redness' on pennies of that period. Now I wonder if Freeman was too conservative - you see 'red' pennies quite commonly also between 1908 and 1910, and I wonder if KN supplied blanks for those too?

[Coinery 926]

we all know the KN planchet, you can spot a KN penny from a mile off just looking at the obverse, however a strange one happened today, bought a bunch of coins (was a nice VF+ first type george was 1917 but thatw as by the by) as in packaging it came in stapled stuff to keep them seperate, however this one red looking worn penny had moved behind the 1917, (so i couldn't see the date)

first thing i thought was, hey a KN,

got in... took it out, turned it over... 1919, no letters at all.

now i possibly have seen old 1912 H filter through to 1913.

but never something like this.

screenshots will come at some point soon BUT was wondering if anyone knows about such things.

Yes indeed - Freeman mentions in his introduction that Kings Norton supplied blanks to the Royal Mint for the whole period from 1912 to 1919. I had often noticed that characteristic 'redness' on pennies of that period. Now I wonder if Freeman was too conservative - you see 'red' pennies quite commonly also between 1908 and 1910, and I wonder if KN supplied blanks for those too?

Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

[Generic Lad 25]

Are there trace elements found in KN issues that aren't found on normal issues? Perhaps someone who has an XRF analyzer could see if the "signatures" match. One of the coin shops near me actually has one and while it isn't 100% accurate it would show if there are any unusually high trace elements when compared to one struck by tower mint. Its pretty interesting to use with Roman bronze coins because it shows that the different mints each had different alloys, for example, one of them tested near pure copper with a bit of tin, while another was nearly 20% lead!

[Peckris 579]

Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

Got any pictures? I'd be interested to see those! (Actually, my 1926 is strangely yellow on the obverse - full lustre.)

Are there trace elements found in KN issues that aren't found on normal issues? Perhaps someone who has an XRF analyzer could see if the "signatures" match. One of the coin shops near me actually has one and while it isn't 100% accurate it would show if there are any unusually high trace elements when compared to one struck by tower mint. Its pretty interesting to use with Roman bronze coins because it shows that the different mints each had different alloys, for example, one of them tested near pure copper with a bit of tin, while another was nearly 20% lead!

It has got to be to do with the precise alloy used, hasn't it? I always thought Heaton's blanks come out looking blacker than the RM issues, and you see this especially on the 1912H and 1919H pennies. What would be fascinating is if the KN 'mix' turned out to be only very slightly different, but enough to cause the redness. On the other hand, being based in Birmingham, a city known for its engineering, metalwork and jewellery manufacture, as well as a certain stubborn refusal to bow down to the SE manadrins, it could well be that those at Kings Norton simply said "Don't tell us how to make bronze, laddie - we were doing it before the Romans arrived!"

Edited November 28, 2012 by Peckris

[declanwmagee 122]

Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

not just pennies, I'm sure. Here's my 1902 halfpenny and it matches your description perfectly, Stuart!

[Coinery 926]

Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

not just pennies, I'm sure. Here's my 1902 halfpenny and it matches your description perfectly, Stuart!

Yes, unfortunately I don't have the images, or coins, of the two I'm talking about (peck), but they looked almost toy-money in appearance, like you'd imagine a matt brass proof to look like! Any ideas, then, what it's all about?

[scott 129]

I see that effect more on 1908 worn pennies

[declanwmagee 122]

Yes, unfortunately I don't have the images, or coins, of the two I'm talking about (peck), but they looked almost toy-money in appearance, like you'd imagine a matt brass proof to look like! Any ideas, then, what it's all about?

It's got to be alloy. My 1903 is the same, but 1904 is back to normal. Of course the official alloy is the same throughout: 95% Cu, 4% Sn, 1% Zn, but that won't take account of any impurities.

Is there a metallurgist in the house?

[Red Riley 2]

It's got to be alloy. My 1903 is the same, but 1904 is back to normal. Of course the official alloy is the same throughout: 95% Cu, 4% Sn, 1% Zn, but that won't take account of any impurities.

Is there a metallurgist in the house?

I don't think it's the whole answer or all pre-1860 copper coins would have a consistent tone which patently they don't. What I believe, is that the Royal Mint sourced their ore from a number of different locations which would have contained all sorts of different trace elements, and the way that these reacted with their environment would to some extent dictate the tone that the coin eventually acquired. On the other hand, I suspect King's Norton obtained all their metal from one source, hence this consistent red-ish tone. On the other hand there is always the possibility that King's Norton deliberately added a chemical to the mix in order to promote this rather attractive tone.

Incidentally, I have seen coins from as far back as 1893 toned in King's Norton red.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Red Riley

[Peter 615]

Interesting subject.Varieties,ore quality are all interesting to me.Mrs Peter can't work out why I source varieties.(maybe ore)

Keeps the old mind working.

[declanwmagee 122]

Ever so interesting! These days, the top producers of copper are Chile, the US, Indonesia and Peru, but I think we can safely say that wouldn't have been the case back then. Add the trace element abundance from the various sources to the fact that there are 29 isotopes of copper, most of which are decaying at various rates, mostly to Zinc and Nickel, and then further down the chain to other metals, and you could easily conclude that the exact composition of any two lumps of copper are always going to be different.

[Coinery 926]

Ever so interesting! These days, the top producers of copper are Chile, the US, Indonesia and Peru, but I think we can safely say that wouldn't have been the case back then. Add the trace element abundance from the various sources to the fact that there are 29 isotopes of copper, most of which are decaying at various rates, mostly to Zinc and Nickel, and then further down the chain to other metals, and you could easily conclude that the exact composition of any two lumps of copper are always going to be different.

I think we HAVE a metallurgist in the house!

Interesting!

[Red Riley 2]

Ever so interesting! These days, the top producers of copper are Chile, the US, Indonesia and Peru, but I think we can safely say that wouldn't have been the case back then. Add the trace element abundance from the various sources to the fact that there are 29 isotopes of copper, most of which are decaying at various rates, mostly to Zinc and Nickel, and then further down the chain to other metals, and you could easily conclude that the exact composition of any two lumps of copper are always going to be different.

I think prior to, and probably during the First World War, the Royal Mint would have sourced most of their copper from mines in Wales or Cornwall. These were mostly small producers and there would undoubtedly have been significant variations in the chemical make up of the ore mined. I have never managed to establish quite when the last domestic mine closed down, but it would have been round about 1920, which could explain the more consistent colour until the alloy was changed in 1944. The dark tone of 26ME pennies is an enigma though.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Red Riley

[scott 129]

there is also the odd 1893 in a light brown colour as well

[declanwmagee 122]

The dark tone of 26ME pennies is an enigma though.

and then it all goes streaky 1927-1931 - do you think that's production, or ore?

Or ore. Honestly. I wouldn't have got away with that if I'd be public speaking.

[Peckris 579]

The dark tone of 26ME pennies is an enigma though.

and then it all goes streaky 1927-1931 - do you think that's production, or ore?

I find ALL 1926s are dark, to be honest. As for streaky, I have pennies from 1921 to 1926 with very streaky lustre. But if you're talking about pennies without lustre, the worst offenders are some of the 1920s and 1921s - they have lots of brass coloured flecks in, which I'm told is due to the use of leftover gun shells in the mix, but some are just plain streaky. I'd not noticed it on the final issue George V though, do you have pictures?

[Coinery 926]

Do you know anything about brassy looking pennies of E7? I've come across 2 now, both full-lustre, but as yellow as a horse brass! Not polished, either, full-lustre!

not just pennies, I'm sure. Here's my 1902 halfpenny and it matches your description perfectly, Stuart!

Yes, unfortunately I don't have the images, or coins, of the two I'm talking about (peck), but they looked almost toy-money in appearance, like you'd imagine a matt brass proof to look like! Any ideas, then, what it's all about?

I've had a route back through some paperwork...they were both 1906 pennies, I didn't really like them, I have to say, never fitted in at all!

[Coinery 926]

The dark tone of 26ME pennies is an enigma though.

and then it all goes streaky 1927-1931 - do you think that's production, or ore?

I find ALL 1926s are dark, to be honest. As for streaky, I have pennies from 1921 to 1926 with very streaky lustre. But if you're talking about pennies without lustre, the worst offenders are some of the 1920s and 1921s - they have lots of brass coloured flecks in, which I'm told is due to the use of leftover gun shells in the mix, but some are just plain streaky. I'd not noticed it on the final issue George V though, do you have pictures?

Streaky E7's too!

[declanwmagee 122]

I'd not noticed it on the final issue George V though, do you have pictures?

Here's one for starters from some cowboy on eBay...

1930 Penny

Edited November 30, 2012 by declanwmagee

[Peckris 579]

The dark tone of 26ME pennies is an enigma though.

and then it all goes streaky 1927-1931 - do you think that's production, or ore?

I find ALL 1926s are dark, to be honest. As for streaky, I have pennies from 1921 to 1926 with very streaky lustre. But if you're talking about pennies without lustre, the worst offenders are some of the 1920s and 1921s - they have lots of brass coloured flecks in, which I'm told is due to the use of leftover gun shells in the mix, but some are just plain streaky. I'd not noticed it on the final issue George V though, do you have pictures?

Streaky E7's too!

Yes, that's true. Especially the middle years.

[scott 129]

i have a streaky 1919

incendently i have seen foreign coins with the same streakyness.

i have bought a 1927 recently with streakyness. i'll upload it at some point

[scott 129]

i think the redness on 1918/19 pennies are differant to prevous dates, 1908/9 are a pleasing browner colour, the only red one is 1893.

here it is.

incendently, perhaps colin cooke says swedish copper was used in the early milled copper, which was a red colour.

Edited December 1, 2012 by scott

[declanwmagee 122]

incendently, perhaps colin cooke says swedish copper was used in the early milled copper, which was a red colour.

Aha!

From wikipedia:

"The Great Copper Mountain was a mine in Falun, Sweden, that operated from the 10th century to 1992. It produced two thirds of Europe's copper demand in the 17th century and helped fund many of Sweden's wars during that time.[59] It was referred to as the nation's treasury; Sweden had a copper backed currency."

[Peckris 579]

i think the redness on 1918/19 pennies are differant to prevous dates, 1908/9 are a pleasing browner colour, the only red one is 1893.

here it is.

incendently, perhaps colin cooke says swedish copper was used in the early milled copper, which was a red colour.

Here's my 1908, which confirms what you say scott

But I think you'll agree that my 1909 is as red as the KNs? (next post)