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azda

Graded Holder Jargon

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Meh... As everyone knows, milled coins aren't my forte. That would be eating mince pies, but setting that aside, I personally can't see anything EF about your shilling Dave. For that I would expect the garter to be crisper and the letters sharper. I did once have a Charley II shilling where you could read the garter motto. I know some coins are softly struck (William III's seem particularly prone to this). But I would grade as gVF.

Remember also that NGC's EF, is the American EF which is equivalent to a bit more than the English "about good".

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Meh... As everyone knows, milled coins aren't my forte. That would be eating mince pies, but setting that aside, I personally can't see anything EF about your shilling Dave. For that I would expect the garter to be crisper and the letters sharper. I did once have a Charley II shilling where you could read the garter motto. I know some coins are softly struck (William III's seem particularly prone to this). But I would grade as gVF.

Remember also that NGC's EF, is the American EF which is equivalent to a bit more than the English "about good".

:D

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Thats a nice coin azda,

When ever you see the word "details" on a NGC slab it means there is a problem with the coin eg cleaning, scratch, edge damage, mounting etc...

What they mean is, it would grade EF without the problem. PCGS dont give problem coins a grade, they just call them all "genuine" on the slab but they do have a code number on the slab, for example 98 which stands for cleaning.

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Thanks Huss. A list of those codes would be useful

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Thanks Huss. A list of those codes would be useful

PCGS describe the codes on their website and NGC describe their version of "Details" on their website. The following is from PCGS:

No Grade Description

82 Filed Rims

83 Peeling Lamination

84 Holed and Plugged

90 Not Genuine

91 Questionable Color

92 Cleaning

93 Planchet Flaw

94 Altered Surfaces

95 Scratch / Rim Dent

97 Environmental Damage

98 Damage

99 PVC Residue

Overall I'm in favour of weeding out "Details" coins, and for that I think TPGs provide a useful service to numismatics. Doesn't mean of course that the coin won't subsequently be deslabbed and offered to the coin buying public without the "Details" accolade, but at least while they reside in their sarcophagai؟, the buying public are spared. Not to say of course that TPG slabs are not faked from time to time. What's that you say? Buy the coin, not the slab? Sometimes, on the other hand the rubric for some is, "Sell the slab, not the coin"¡!

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I take it Peterkin you're not in favour of slabbing. Welcome to the majority of this forum. At least 90% on this Forum don't like them either, myself included

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I take it Peterkin you're not in favour of slabbing. Welcome to the majority of this forum. At least 90% on this Forum don't like them either, myself included

At the risk of a few Boooos from the gallery: I am actually in favour of slabbing. It has its faults, but I think is an improvement, or at least a move in the right direction, on the state of buying/ selling and collecting pre-slabbing, and which we still see in the unslabbed market on the likes of Ebay where, as numerous posts have observed, grades are routinely overstated. I'm also in favour of melting down a lot of the dross which we see again and again.

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I take it Peterkin you're not in favour of slabbing. Welcome to the majority of this forum. At least 90% on this Forum don't like them either, myself included

At the risk of a few Boooos from the gallery: I am actually in favour of slabbing. It has its faults, but I think is an improvement, or at least a move in the right direction, on the state of buying/ selling and collecting pre-slabbing, and which we still see in the unslabbed market on the likes of Ebay where, as numerous posts have observed, grades are routinely overstated. I'm also in favour of melting down a lot of the dross which we see again and again.

Problem being with the Americans and slabbing is that they're buying the slabs at vastly hyper inflated prices because of what the slab says. Thank god i'm not a slab buyer

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I take it Peterkin you're not in favour of slabbing. Welcome to the majority of this forum. At least 90% on this Forum don't like them either, myself included

At the risk of a few Boooos from the gallery: I am actually in favour of slabbing. It has its faults, but I think is an improvement, or at least a move in the right direction, on the state of buying/ selling and collecting pre-slabbing, and which we still see in the unslabbed market on the likes of Ebay where, as numerous posts have observed, grades are routinely overstated. I'm also in favour of melting down a lot of the dross which we see again and again.

Actually, slabs pre-date eBay. And the standard of buying & selling was a whole lot better pre-eBay (I agree 100% with your comments about the 'Bay). To take a case in point - the auction house Warwick & Warwick was a fine institution in the 90s when I bought from there, but from the comments made here, it seems to have gone downhill fast. You could argue that slabs give some protection from the worst excesses of eBay, but knowledge acquired by the coin-buying public would give just as much, and would preserve standards across the numismatic board.

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I take it Peterkin you're not in favour of slabbing. Welcome to the majority of this forum. At least 90% on this Forum don't like them either, myself included

At the risk of a few Boooos from the gallery: I am actually in favour of slabbing. It has its faults, but I think is an improvement, or at least a move in the right direction, on the state of buying/ selling and collecting pre-slabbing, and which we still see in the unslabbed market on the likes of Ebay where, as numerous posts have observed, grades are routinely overstated. I'm also in favour of melting down a lot of the dross which we see again and again.

Actually, slabs pre-date eBay. And the standard of buying & selling was a whole lot better pre-eBay (I agree 100% with your comments about the 'Bay). To take a case in point - the auction house Warwick & Warwick was a fine institution in the 90s when I bought from there, but from the comments made here, it seems to have gone downhill fast. You could argue that slabs give some protection from the worst excesses of eBay, but knowledge acquired by the coin-buying public would give just as much, and would preserve standards across the numismatic board.

Yes, they certainly do. I think PCGS, as an example, was started in the early '80s as a project between a group of USA dealers to facilitate inter dealer sight unseen trading - those founding dealers guaranteed to accept such slabbed coins at the grades stated at their dealer to dealer prices. I would extend the argument that you pose to include worst excesses of sellers, not only Ebay.

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To take a case in point - the auction house Warwick & Warwick was a fine institution in the 90s when I bought from there, but from the comments made here, it seems to have gone downhill fast. You could argue that slabs give some protection from the worst excesses of eBay, but knowledge acquired by the coin-buying public would give just as much, and would preserve standards across the numismatic board.

I am starting to wonder if grading hasn't .. slipped a bit everywhere. Certainly I've noticed a few dealers who worked for major companies before setting up on their own being ... more generous with their grading than they would ever have been allowed to get away with earlier in their career.

Oh, and this caught my eye the other day. Coin on the left was graded 'generally good fine, better in places' when sold by Bonhams in 2006. Coin on the right, currently on sale through Baldwins graded .. very fine. OK, the difference between good fine and very fine is not great and there is some subjectivity ... but doesn't very fine sound better? And probably will command a better price too.

post-129-074142700 1353688469_thumb.jpg

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To take a case in point - the auction house Warwick & Warwick was a fine institution in the 90s when I bought from there, but from the comments made here, it seems to have gone downhill fast. You could argue that slabs give some protection from the worst excesses of eBay, but knowledge acquired by the coin-buying public would give just as much, and would preserve standards across the numismatic board.

I am starting to wonder if grading hasn't .. slipped a bit everywhere. Certainly I've noticed a few dealers who worked for major companies before setting up on their own being ... more generous with their grading than they would ever have been allowed to get away with earlier in their career.

Oh, and this caught my eye the other day. Coin on the left was graded 'generally good fine, better in places' when sold by Bonhams in 2006. Coin on the right, currently on sale through Baldwins graded .. very fine. OK, the difference between good fine and very fine is not great and there is some subjectivity ... but doesn't very fine sound better? And probably will command a better price too.

post-129-074142700 1353688469_thumb.jpg

Thank you Tom. Absolutely agreed (but it's the reverse really isn't it, and as you correctly say - for monetary benefit). Folks having entered into the dealing profession have taken the sworn oath of "Devil take the hindmost", without hte brakes of objectivity or neutrality being applied, then "Sell" grades improve, "Buy" grades of course do not. A punter can buy an UNC coin in the morning, take it home, and after his wife has discovered the purchase and told him to take it back, the coin is received back by the dealer, but in no better than in "about good" (PCGS EF Details of course), such being the way with the unslabbed business, and at a substantially lower price than the morning's price, the bottom having fallen out of the market in the interim in that particular coin only, not ALL other coins you understand. Punter goes home, faces wife. Dealer fishes out the UNC sticker again - and reapplies it.

Within the slabbing industry (I think it fair to call it industry)of course, yesterday's VF25 is tomorrow's EF40, is next week's AU55 etc upon resumission after resubmission. Gradflation seems the norm.

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Gradflation seems the norm.

And there I think is the problem. TPGs encourage people to be lazy and, rather than in the old days learning how to grade coins to their own satisfaction, many now rely upon someone else's opinion. There is a suggestion that grading is an absolute science, but of course, it's not or we wouldn't get any changes upon resubmission, would we?

But that aside, I guess I don't really have much of a problem with graded and slabbed coins, so long as they aren't ones I collect! If people want to fret about whether their cent is MS64 or MS65, 'finest known' or whatever, fine. Since US coins are graded using the Sheldon scale anyway, sticking a coin in a plastic slab doesn't make much difference and I can see the advantages of protecting the things from sticky fingers and knocks.

But when TPGs try to use the same standards on English hammered, well, I'm not happy with that! For a start, as everyone should know, it takes experience to grade coins. You need to have seen enough to compare one against another. But also, I would question whether the precentage of wear a hammered coin has had is a useful measure. For accuracy you need to know both what a 'perfect' as struck example might look like. And also have an idea what condition the coin you are grading was in when it left the mint. Die and striking variations can mean that a coin that has had a lot of wear (but was very well struck to start with) is much more appealing than one as sharp as it was on day 1, but from an uneven flan or poor strike.

From that perspective slabs simply make it difficult to photograph a coin and tricky to see how round it is (those four little supporting 'spurs' might be better but they still obscure parts of the edge). And really, even with UK dealers, I tend to rely on what I think of a coin, well before I see what grade they have given it. As for US TPGs well, I personally just don't think they have enough experience to voice an opinion.

I have posted this wonderful piece of hyperbole before because it amuses me. And while the coin is sharply stuck, is it good looking? Not so much in my opinion...

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=31&lot=2161

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Gradflation seems the norm.

And there I think is the problem. TPGs encourage people to be lazy and, rather than in the old days learning how to grade coins to their own satisfaction, many now rely upon someone else's opinion. There is a suggestion that grading is an absolute science, but of course, it's not or we wouldn't get any changes upon resubmission, would we?

But that aside, I guess I don't really have much of a problem with graded and slabbed coins, so long as they aren't ones I collect! If people want to fret about whether their cent is MS64 or MS65, 'finest known' or whatever, fine. Since US coins are graded using the Sheldon scale anyway, sticking a coin in a plastic slab doesn't make much difference and I can see the advantages of protecting the things from sticky fingers and knocks.

But when TPGs try to use the same standards on English hammered, well, I'm not happy with that! For a start, as everyone should know, it takes experience to grade coins. You need to have seen enough to compare one against another. But also, I would question whether the precentage of wear a hammered coin has had is a useful measure. For accuracy you need to know both what a 'perfect' as struck example might look like. And also have an idea what condition the coin you are grading was in when it left the mint. Die and striking variations can mean that a coin that has had a lot of wear (but was very well struck to start with) is much more appealing than one as sharp as it was on day 1, but from an uneven flan or poor strike.

From that perspective slabs simply make it difficult to photograph a coin and tricky to see how round it is (those four little supporting 'spurs' might be better but they still obscure parts of the edge). And really, even with UK dealers, I tend to rely on what I think of a coin, well before I see what grade they have given it. As for US TPGs well, I personally just don't think they have enough experience to voice an opinion.

I have posted this wonderful piece of hyperbole before because it amuses me. And while the coin is sharply stuck, is it good looking? Not so much in my opinion...

http://images.goldbergauctions.com/php/lot_auc.php?site=1&sale=31&lot=2161

Thank you Tom. Wise words, and amusing coin description - what the cataloguer gets right is that he has no idea how the coin was attributed as MS62.

I saw a fantastic example of a PCSG slabbed English hammered. PCGS has it as a groat, James the fourth, and a date. I can't remember the date PCGS had expertly determined. But they were wrong on all points! It was a shilling, James first of England / sixth of Scotland. I find that hilarious. Even the august members of this Forum are leery about putting together a book on grading English hammered, no doubt with lifetemes of experience in the topic - but for the guys with the slabs, "no problem!". I haven't discovered what objective criteria (in the way of checklists) the US TPGs apply to grading English coins, but I have discovered that they do have such for their various American coins of different denominations and series, e.g. they can turn to the section which discusses Morgan Dollars and in theory work their way through the checklist. Obviously such criteria, if it has had to be produced for each denomination/ series of the subject American coins can NOT be applicable to grading English coins. I'd love to know what the likes of PCGS and NGC acknowledge that they DO use to grade English coins (perhaps they have a go at using "Grading British Coins") - if anyone has any specific information on that.

Buyers have the right to expect sellers to grade fairly, and to expect TPGs to grade competently, or take their business elsewhere. Buyers and sellers behove it to the hobby, let alone to themselves, to learn grading. I would say that a collector who has learned grading is able to enjoy so much more about our hobby. To be able to appreciate how remarkable is the survival of a piece in a high degree of preservation for example requires at least the ability to recognize such degree of preservation - which comes from learning grading.

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Very nice Dave.A decent strike with extras. :)

Crack it out of the slab?

Hmmmm, slab cracking this one i'm not sure about as i bought it for the bay and in it's holder it may attract more potential buyers, so will probably leave it as is

Very wise. As for the coin, it has nice detailing (EF!), but I wouldn't care for that scratch, and the obverse has quite a few flecks. Good luck with it though.

Hi Everyone I haven't posted for a while.

First of all you can all lol because I don't see the scratch please clarify location. Second of all to my eye there is an overstrike on E of Rex which to me makes this coin special. My grade (as an American ex pat who still grades the English way) it is GVF regardless of the verbage on the slab.

Also I actually do think PCGS can be quite consistent in their slabbing grades.

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No overstrike in the E of REX, there is one however a G/A in MAG. The scratch is in the REV between the right Hand shield and Bottom shield. This is slabbed by NGC ;)

Edited by azda

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No overstrike in the E of REX, there is one however a G/A in MAG. The scratch is in the REV between the right Hand shield and Bottom shield. This is slabbed by NGC ;)

There's also a vertical gouge in the English arms. Nice G over A in MAG though.

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No overstrike in the E of REX, there is one however a G/A in MAG. The scratch is in the REV between the right Hand shield and Bottom shield. This is slabbed by NGC ;)

There's also a vertical gouge in the English arms. Nice G over A in MAG though.

The vertical GOUGE looks more like excess material as it's raised running into the arms and is'nt light, there seems to be a small nick at the top of the shield though which is lighter than the GOUGE. The G/A was'nt noted, which was a bonus :)

Edited by azda

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Buyers and sellers behove it to the hobby, let alone to themselves, to learn grading. I would say that a collector who has learned grading is able to enjoy so much more about our hobby. To be able to appreciate how remarkable is the survival of a piece in a high degree of preservation for example requires at least the ability to recognize such degree of preservation - which comes from learning grading.

Quite. I've quoted this before but in the into to the Coincraft catalogue Richard Lobel quotes an early mentor of his who said "when you go to value a coin it is what you have not seen rather than what you have seen that matters" and this is particularly true of grading.

Some very common coins are almost impossible to find in decent condition, particularly the hammered series where a round, centrally struck, even, unclipped example would be well worth snapping up if ever you saw one. Whereas others are quite easy to find. The key of course, is knowing which is which!

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No overstrike in the E of REX, there is one however a G/A in MAG. The scratch is in the REV between the right Hand shield and Bottom shield. This is slabbed by NGC ;)

There's also a vertical gouge in the English arms. Nice G over A in MAG though.

The vertical GOUGE looks more like excess material as it's raised running into the arms and is'nt light, there seems to be a small nick at the top of the shield though which is lighter than the GOUGE. The G/A was'nt noted, which was a bonus :)

My apologies AZDA. Sometimes what is in relief looks to be incuse to my eyes.

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No overstrike in the E of REX, there is one however a G/A in MAG. The scratch is in the REV between the right Hand shield and Bottom shield. This is slabbed by NGC ;)

There's also a vertical gouge in the English arms. Nice G over A in MAG though.

The vertical GOUGE looks more like excess material as it's raised running into the arms and is'nt light, there seems to be a small nick at the top of the shield though which is lighter than the GOUGE. The G/A was'nt noted, which was a bonus :)

My apologies AZDA. Sometimes what is in relief looks to be incuse to my eyes.

It happens to me too sometimes, and there is no way I can make it look as it should!

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No problem peterkin. I've seen pictures on here where the Details look incused instead of raised, its the eyes, someone explained it last time.

Edited by azda

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No problem peterkin. I've seen pictures on here where the Details look incused instead of raised, its the eyes, someone explained it last time.

Maybe it's a trick the brain plays, like on this Quite Interesting clip?

Edited by Paulus

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No problem peterkin. I've seen pictures on here where the Details look incused instead of raised, its the eyes, someone explained it last time.

Thanks Azda and Paulus. I appreciate it and the consensus (i.e. it's not just me). I was looking at Edward VII stuff today and for the life of me - the ear was incuse! Brain is saying - no it's not, look again. For something like that I know it's the eyes playing tricks, and I know to look away, give it a minute and carry on - but your coin beat me Azda, it was under the radar!

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No problem peterkin. I've seen pictures on here where the Details look incused instead of raised, its the eyes, someone explained it last time.

Thanks Azda and Paulus. I appreciate it and the consensus (i.e. it's not just me). I was looking at Edward VII stuff today and for the life of me - the ear was incuse! Brain is saying - no it's not, look again. For something like that I know it's the eyes playing tricks, and I know to look away, give it a minute and carry on - but your coin beat me Azda, it was under the radar!

And Peckris, sorry I missed you out.

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