1825 3rd Rev Shilling Variety?

[Paulus 1,942]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

[Rob 3,000]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

If the underlying digit has a longer more curved tail and the top is straight, it could be a 5/3 just as easily as a 5/5. The first would be interesting, the second not.

[Paulus 1,942]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

If the underlying digit has a longer more curved tail and the top is straight, it could be a 5/3 just as easily as a 5/5. The first would be interesting, the second not.

Thanks Rob. Again, according to Michael, the consensus has been that it is 5/3 but he thinks it is 5/5! When you say 'interesting' if it is 5/3, what is the rarity do you know/think?

[Rob 3,000]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

If the underlying digit has a longer more curved tail and the top is straight, it could be a 5/3 just as easily as a 5/5. The first would be interesting, the second not.

Thanks Rob. Again, according to Michael, the consensus has been that it is 5/3 but he thinks it is 5/5! When you say 'interesting' if it is 5/3, what is the rarity do you know/think?

You would need to see it in hand. If a 5/3 then I've not seen one. Spink or ESC wouldn't list a 5/5 because there's no point, as by extension any reasonably large mintage with have a good number of repaired and reworked dies, all of which would lead to a new variety. People get too tied up with a slightly misaligned set of punches when it is well known that to impress a character requires more than one blow. It's rather more surprising that so many dates and legends are entered without any visible double cutting, particularly so as you are trying to recut a hardened die. That situation frequently leads to a series of offset cuts on account of the greater effort and hence less accuracy, required to make an impression on the die.

Edited November 13, 2012 by Rob

[Paulus 1,942]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

If the underlying digit has a longer more curved tail and the top is straight, it could be a 5/3 just as easily as a 5/5. The first would be interesting, the second not.

Thanks Rob. Again, according to Michael, the consensus has been that it is 5/3 but he thinks it is 5/5! When you say 'interesting' if it is 5/3, what is the rarity do you know/think?

You would need to see it in hand. If a 5/3 then I've not seen one. Spink or ESC wouldn't list a 5/5 because there's no point as by extension, any reasonably large mintage with have a good number of repaired and reworked dies, all of which would lead to a new variety. People get too tied up with a slightly misaligned set of punches when it is well known that to impress a character requirs more than one blow. It's rather more surprising that so many dates and legends are entered without any visible double cutting, particularly so you are trying to recut a hardened die. That situation frequently leads to a series of offset cuts on account of the greater effort and hence less accuracy required to make an impression on the die.

That makes perfect common sense, thanks Rob

[Coinery 926]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

I can't see the images up-close on the phone but, my instant thought was, if Michael could at best say 'it MIGHT be' a 5/5, then you'd need to find some other very convincing 5/5 dies for it to be anything other than a '5' in the market place!

If Michael, with his seat well established in the micro-market, can't give you a letter of affirmation, then it's a difficult one, to say least!

Would be great to research it and get it in Spink's, though! A satisfying YES! Good luck, Paulus!

[Rob 3,000]

I can't see the images up-close on the phone but, my instant thought was, if Michael could at best say 'it MIGHT be' a 5/5, then you'd need to find some other very convincing 5/5 dies for it to be anything other than a '5' in the market place!

If Michael, with his seat well established in the micro-market, can't give you a letter of affirmation, then it's a difficult one, to say least!

Would be great to research it and get it in Spink's, though! A satisfying YES! Good luck, Paulus!

Yes and no. Research is always good fun, but have you considered the ramifications of listing all the potential double cut legend varieties in Spink or any other reference volume. Any, and potentially every letter on every coin could have been repunched at some point and in any combination with some recut several times. I suspect the only feasible option when carrying such a volume would be to attend the drive-thru coin fair.

[Paulus 1,942]

I have just acquired this from Mr Gouby and would be interested in your thoughts. High Res pics when received.

According to Michael it might be a 5 over 5, a variety unlisted in my copies of Spink and ESC. I don't normally collect varieties such as this, preferring to keep my money for such elusive-in-affordable-decent-grades as Charlie 2 elephants and plumes (now there's a rare combination!), but this one has sparked my interest.

I don't know how long it has been in Michael's stock but I also wonder if some of you know of it as it has apparently been the subject of some debate, although possibly not on this forum.

ALL comments welcome!

I can't see the images up-close on the phone but, my instant thought was, if Michael could at best say 'it MIGHT be' a 5/5, then you'd need to find some other very convincing 5/5 dies for it to be anything other than a '5' in the market place!

If Michael, with his seat well established in the micro-market, can't give you a letter of affirmation, then it's a difficult one, to say least!

Would be great to research it and get it in Spink's, though! A satisfying YES! Good luck, Paulus!

Can't define why it inspires me Stuart, normally these claims do the opposite, but I respect Michael and the coin is worthy of what I paid regardless! Looking forward to some research though and if one day I got a new variety recognised that would be amazing!

[Coinery 926]

I can't see the images up-close on the phone but, my instant thought was, if Michael could at best say 'it MIGHT be' a 5/5, then you'd need to find some other very convincing 5/5 dies for it to be anything other than a '5' in the market place!

If Michael, with his seat well established in the micro-market, can't give you a letter of affirmation, then it's a difficult one, to say least!

Would be great to research it and get it in Spink's, though! A satisfying YES! Good luck, Paulus!

Yes and no. Research is always good fun, but have you considered the ramifications of listing all the potential double cut legend varieties in Spink or any other reference volume. Any, and potentially every letter on every coin could have been repunched at some point and in any combination with some recut several times. I suspect the only feasible option when carrying such a volume would be to attend the drive-thru coin fair.

It's SO easy to get carried away with all these things, I know! And what's wrong with Spink's cataloging a 5/5 with top bit poking out, and 5/5 with back curve poking out beyond the other back curve, and, and...?

[Rob 3,000]

I can't see the images up-close on the phone but, my instant thought was, if Michael could at best say 'it MIGHT be' a 5/5, then you'd need to find some other very convincing 5/5 dies for it to be anything other than a '5' in the market place!

If Michael, with his seat well established in the micro-market, can't give you a letter of affirmation, then it's a difficult one, to say least!

Would be great to research it and get it in Spink's, though! A satisfying YES! Good luck, Paulus!

Yes and no. Research is always good fun, but have you considered the ramifications of listing all the potential double cut legend varieties in Spink or any other reference volume. Any, and potentially every letter on every coin could have been repunched at some point and in any combination with some recut several times. I suspect the only feasible option when carrying such a volume would be to attend the drive-thru coin fair.

It's SO easy to get carried away with all these things, I know! And what's wrong with Spink's cataloging a 5/5 with top bit poking out, and 5/5 with back curve poking out beyond the other back curve, and, and...?

These things have to be left to specialists undertaking a die study, and even then you would be hard pressed to find more than a handful of active collectors. I remember on more than one occasion sitting through a sale of sovereigns collected by die number. The tedium is unbelievable.

[azda 973]

If Michael has had it a while and the last digit has been debated elsewhere and with Michaels authority on Micro varities, he states its 5/5, why would you then believe it to be 5/3? Are you trying to convince yourself its 5/3?

[Peckris 579]

Sorry, but I have to agree with Rob 100% on this. If it could be demonstrated clearly to be a 5/3 then it's of interest. If 5/5 - with all due respect to Michael Gouby - then it's of no interest whatever (to the general coin market, I mean - clearly it's of interest to you and Coinery!). As Rob says, double-struck digits or recut digits in the 19th Century are virtually the norm rather than the exception, and I really don't think Spink have the scope or the will to include such micro-varieties in the Standard Catalogue.

Sorry to rain on your parade, but unless you can get confirmation it's 5/3, then I believe it's of personal interest only. Having said that, and forgetting the date issue, it's a very nice coin and I envy you it

[Rob 3,000]

It isn't a case of putting down detailed die studies, just that the market for such a volume would be severely limited. Having said that, in this digital age you can produce single copies of a book or as many as you want for very little extra cost over that of materials and stting up costs. Anyone specialising in a narrow field can therefore publish their research quite cheaply with a short print run of 10 books to test the water and thus show the true demand for collecting to this depth.

Any price guide would be hopelessly cumbersome if it included recut legends as you would need to illustrate each and every variety to avoid ambiguity. Essentially it would become a definitive guide of all the dies extant in their various states, less those that you didn't track down (of which there will be quite a few). I don't know, nor have I heard of anyone collecting to this level, so it would be a labour of love that is an order of magnitude more analytical than even the tooth pointings of Freeman and Davies etc. Anybody contemplating such a survey will need deep pockets, as even coins at melt in the quantities required will severely impact on the bank account. Even a short run such as George IV shillings would produce a significant tome when all the dies including punched varieties are included. Just think what the task would be like for all those hand punched dies, each and every one of which would be a discrete variety.

[azda 973]

Its a nice coin, one that will probably sit in your collection and nag you to death for the life of it in your collection. I'd be content that it's a good example and it will piss you off for a while wondering what's under the 5

[Paulus 1,942]

If Michael has had it a while and the last digit has been debated elsewhere and with Michaels authority on Micro varities, he states its 5/5, why would you then believe it to be 5/3? Are you trying to convince yourself its 5/3?

Not at all, I have little idea about such things! I have bought it as a nice grade 1825, the wonky 5 is just added interest ... Michael says on his web site that others have suggested it may be 5/3 but that seems unlikely/impossible! So I thought I would throw it open for debate

Edited November 13, 2012 by Paulus

[azda 973]

If Michael has had it a while and the last digit has been debated elsewhere and with Michaels authority on Micro varities, he states its 5/5, why would you then believe it to be 5/3? Are you trying to convince yourself its 5/3?

Not at all, I have little idea about such things! I have bought it as a nice grade 1825, the wonky 5 is just added interest ... Michael says on his web site that others have suggested it may be 5/3 but that seems unlikely/impossible! So I thought I would throw it open for debate

Nothing is likely or impossible in coin collecting

[Peckris 579]

If Michael has had it a while and the last digit has been debated elsewhere and with Michaels authority on Micro varities, he states its 5/5, why would you then believe it to be 5/3? Are you trying to convince yourself its 5/3?

Not at all, I have little idea about such things! I have bought it as a nice grade 1825, the wonky 5 is just added interest ... Michael says on his web site that others have suggested it may be 5/3 but that seems unlikely/impossible! So I thought I would throw it open for debate

Nothing is likely or impossible in coin collecting

Jedi Knight wants to be does Dave - enigmatic he is.