Is this a FAKE Mary Groat?

[argentumandcoins 70]

2.16gms

ex Spink so assumed okay!!!!

[Coinery 926]

2.16gms

ex Spink so assumed okay!!!!

Thanks, John, any chance you could email me the full-res pictures when you get a moment? Hope you're well!

[argentumandcoins 70]

I can send you the coin or the pics as you prefer Stuart?

Well and busy thanks.

[Coinery 926]

I can send you the coin or the pics as you prefer Stuart?

Well and busy thanks.

Got to be good news, then!

That's very kind, John, thank-you! I'll just give the pictures a go for now, as I've got a feeling I'm going to be majorly groated out, very soon!

Keep busy, and speak soon!

[copper123 1,352]

Funny enough it is quite common to find mary coins defaced probably contempary damage - they have crosses scratched deeply on the surface .

It was probably done during the reign of Elizabeth the first and refers to the fact that mary was catholic .

I here she had a thing for the bishop of bath and wells as well but it stopped short when he presented her with his parsnip.

[Peckris 579]

Funny enough it is quite common to find mary coins defaced probably contempary damage - they have crosses scratched deeply on the surface .

It was probably done during the reign of Elizabeth the first and refers to the fact that mary was catholic .

I here she had a thing for the bishop of bath and wells as well but it stopped short when he presented her with his parsnip.

"Turnip, Baldrick, turnip. Or shall I put you back on a diet of voles?"

"That reminds me, Sire.."

"Yes, Baldrick - what is it?"

"You know how sometimes there are turnips that look like a thingy?"

"Ye-e-e-es?"

"Well, I've got a thingy that looks like a turnip"

[Coinery 926]

First Die-match for the counterfeit! I noticed one major thing that stands out is the broken lion punch on the reverse shield (It looks like the Spink's 2012 plate coin also has the broken lion punch, but is a different die [that would've been a noteworthy discovery, to say the least ]), which is missing one of its rear legs, so I started looking around for the broken lions and found my first match.

The obverse images below are (apologies, I overdid the resize):

Top - Counterfeit coin with 15 key markers (I could've done more, but I don't think it would've made the case any stronger).

Middle - Recently discovered die-match, with the same 15 markers.

Bottom - The two images overlaid with transparency.

I've also added the two reverses for comparison. I haven't 'tested' them together, but I'm thinking they will fit together rather nicely.

So, believing the die-match coin to be a genuine example - and it certainly looks a million dollars more so than the counterfeit - what's going on? I'm presuming a counterfeit set of dies were produced from an original coin, and superbly convincing pewter/tin copies were produced en mass! ANY THOUGHTS either way, please!!!!!!

BEWARE THE LEGLESS LION!

I'm going to see how many groat dies I can find out there (anyone for a speculatory guess, given her short reign, and imminent marriage to Philip?), and set it up in the same fashion as the Liz dies, making a special feature of the obverse and reverse die to watch out for!

I also forgot to mention that an obvious stand-out obverse detail is seen at the central cross (not the top cross) in the crown, which has the crisp infill between the branches. If anyone knows the name of that particular cross and/or the name for the individual 'triangle-branches' of it, I'd very much appreciate that information too.

Edited November 17, 2012 by Coinery

[Coinery 926]

OK, so the proposed genuine coin above is now mine, solely for the purpose of determining its silver content, and resolving the first of the questions about the original counterfeit's origins, I hope!

So, if anyone wants the die-match (following a positive silver test) it's for sale at £88 or greater?

[Coinery 926]

Something I especially like about this transparency software, is the rather pleasing effect of combining the strong points of two coins - merged together they produce an eye-appealling coin, if only the bottom coin existed!

The bottom overlaid image has, for example, all the beading across the front of the dress, a chain is now present on the necklace, the ear's complete, a top bar now exists on the A in Maria, etc, etc, etc!

Edited November 18, 2012 by Coinery

[Coinery 926]

For my money it is a fake made from dies that have been made from a genuine coin or an old die that has been reused. It is not a modern copy and it would be a very rare die that was not blundered after being finished with.

When you say 'blundered,' do you mean stolen? Was this really a common thing, given that the dies would still be capable of producing 'legal' tender right up to the recoinage in W3?

I'm also just wondering about the production of dies, using a currency coin. I'm guessing that devices on a newly created fake die would be, if anything, exact or larger? Whereas a stolen set of dies (maybe even a 100 year's old by then) could potentially have corroded (and the rust would've swollen) and create devices that are frailer and smaller in appearance? Any thoughts?

And just for the record, the reverse dies are also a perfect match!

[Coinery 926]

Has anyone seen, can link me to, or know anything about, the modern 'POSUI reverse' fakes mentioned in North?

Obviously a very different animal to what we are currently looking at here, but would be good to get one up here anyway!

[Coinery 926]

Just an update!

The 'die-match' coin has arrived, it tests positive for high-grade silver, so it'll not be an easy matter of just condeming an entire die type.

However, ahead of my little die-study of the Mary pomegranate groats, there is evidence enough to suggest caution when buying a coin of this die match.