Fake in an NGC Slab!

[Coinery 926]

If you want an expert I think the forum caters nicely.

Totally agree Peter, many people here who give their expert opinions and don't take any BS either. I for one am glad i joined this very forum 2 ish years ago, it's been a great learning curve, although hammered still eludes me

This forum's an absolutely amazing source of information, barely a day goes by where i don't learn something new; the university of coins, there's no mistaking it!

Oh, and thanks for that extremely generous post earlier, Dave, my hat off to you too!

[Peter 615]

I'm still learning and love every minute.There is rarely a boring post.I was explaining gun money to Mrs Peter earlier after she saw my credit card account I did need the 6d.The 3 farthings etc.She trusts me

[azda 973]

I'm still learning and love every minute.There is rarely a boring post.I was explaining gun money to Mrs Peter earlier after she saw my credit card account I did need the 6d.The 3 farthings etc.She trusts me

Geez a CC for gunmoney??????????

[Peter 615]

I'm still learning and love every minute.There is rarely a boring post.I was explaining gun money to Mrs Peter earlier after she saw my credit card account I did need the 6d.The 3 farthings etc.She trusts me

Geez a CC for gunmoney??????????

I have a nice Gun money shilling,I now have the 6d.It is just a area which I find interesting...William just around the corner.William and Mary I really like.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Geez a CC for gunmoney??????????

LOL I use my credit card for most purchases. It doesn't cost me and it delays payment until it's convenient. In the old days when my building society actually paid me interest on my current account it was even better!

[Generic Lad 25]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

[Coinery 926]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

It is a shame for sure, as I for one would've taken a chance on an NGC slab blind before seeing this! It would've been more palatable if it was a really good quality fake but, honestly, I've handled 2 examples of this cast copy, it's obvious in the extreme!

Sadly for PCGS and others, it has coloured my judgement of them too!

I found an NGC Elizabeth Hammered a while back that even had the wrong denomination on it. Not a three-farthing/threehalfpence confusion, but sixpence/groat (and it wasn't a roseless sixpence either). The only saving grace now is that I might, as Rob suggests, find a glaring (or subtle) error to my advantage, and that's what I am looking for now in NGC (maybe I'll find that rare roseless coin slabbed as a penny or something ). I look forward to acquiring, and hearing about other's one-upmanships in this respect!

Edited September 23, 2012 by Coinery

[Rob 2,996]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

And to add to that you can consider the case of the unique(?)George III gold halfpenny that I used to own, with a large scrape across the cheek that was removed which was subsequently slabbed as a cameo proof 64 and sold 6 months later for about £21K in London. This was two years ago. It was bought by an American dealer and presumably sold to a US collector who will therefore have paid at least $30K for a doctored coin - but we all know they don't slab doctored, damaged, fake, or any other altered coins. As has been said many times before, let them carry on to their heart's content slabbing US coins and catering to that market, but anything originating outside America is best left to people who know about these things. These failures are clearly the money tail wagging the knowledgable and ethical dog that the business is purportedly built on.

Take your pick. It is either incompetence based on inadequate knowledge, or else the desire to bring in dollars without giving due consideration to the coin. You have a graded payment scale for slabbing, i.e. the more valuable the coin. the more it costs to have it slabbed. The only additional expense incurred in grading a 10K coin to one worth a few pence is the additional postaage costs incurred. The time spent assessing the coin should be approximately the same if the job is done properly. If you pay peanuts for low value coins, you cannot expect any better from the TPGs. The lesson here is that low grade slabbed coins should be viewed with suspicion, whereas high grade slabbed coins should be viewed with suspicion.

When buying, make sure you treat slabs just as you would any other coin. Check for damage, wear, artificial toning etc with the caveat that there may be hidden damage on the edge of the coin which you can't see but is occasionally present and which you should allow for.

[Rob 2,996]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

It is a shame for sure, as I for one would've taken a chance on an NGC slab blind before seeing this! It would've been more palatable if it was a really good quality fake but, honestly, I've handled 2 examples of this cast copy, it's obvious in the extreme!

Sadly for PCGS and others, it has coloured my judgement of them too!

I found an NGC Elizabeth Hammered a while back that even had the wrong denomination on it. Not a three-farthing/threehalfpence confusion, but sixpence/groat (and it wasn't a roseless sixpence either). The only saving grace now is that I might, as Rob suggests, find a glaring (or subtle) error to my advantage, and that's what I am looking for now in NGC (maybe I'll find that rare roseless coin slabbed as a penny or something ). I look forward to acquiring, and hearing about other's one-upmanships in this respect!

Hus has an MS65 1844 1/3 farthing I sold him that was previously in an 1844 half farthing slab. i.e it converts the cheapest Victorian currency fractional farthing into just about the most expensive.

Either the TPG grader didn't notice that the words HALF FARTHING in big friendly letters (apologies to Douglas Adams) were missing, or didn't take enough care in entering the details into the computer. Take your pick.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Rob

[Accumulator 52]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

It is a shame for sure, as I for one would've taken a chance on an NGC slab blind before seeing this! It would've been more palatable if it was a really good quality fake but, honestly, I've handled 2 examples of this cast copy, it's obvious in the extreme!

Sadly for PCGS and others, it has coloured my judgement of them too!

I found an NGC Elizabeth Hammered a while back that even had the wrong denomination on it. Not a three-farthing/threehalfpence confusion, but sixpence/groat (and it wasn't a roseless sixpence either). The only saving grace now is that I might, as Rob suggests, find a glaring (or subtle) error to my advantage, and that's what I am looking for now in NGC (maybe I'll find that rare roseless coin slabbed as a penny or something ). I look forward to acquiring, and hearing about other's one-upmanships in this respect!

Really obvious mistakes should definitely be picked up by the TPG. Failures like this suggest that they are being lazy (i.e. just accepting the submitter's description) and have poor quality control (not ensuring multiple checks of the principal grader's opinion). In my opinion mistakes should be reported back to the TPG and should be taken very seriously (a full examination of the audit trail for that particular coin being investigated and lessons learnt). Without this forensic examination the whole process could become worthless. Personally, while I'm not a particular fan of the TPG process, I would definitely not want it to lose all credibility. The damage, should that happen, would ultimately affect all collectors be serious threat to the credibility of our hobby.

I have reported mis-attribution before (to CGS) and not had a serious response beyond 'we will look into it'. Perhaps we should consider writing as a community when one of us discovers a mistake, explaining our serious concern that such obvious errors are a threat to the efficacy of the whole TPG system and that we expect the error to be investigated fully, the results made public (or at least communicated to us), and the necessary remedial action taken.

Perhaps this sounds OTT, but I think the whole issue needs addressing urgently. I do believe that this affects us all.

[Rob 2,996]

As individuals who probably don't send any coins in for slabbing, I am not surprised the response is minimal because we don't add any value to their business, i.e we don't give them any income.

A valued customer will be one who regularly submits large quantities of high value coins irrespective of artificial toning, doctored damage etc. I'm not saying they condone it, but do believe they are less critical when it comes to slabbing high grade/value items on account of the remuneration. I've had two George III R42 pattern halfpennies in slabs. One was slabbed MS61 with a note attached that it was recommended that it be sent for "conservation", whilst the other was obviously cleaner and slabbed MS65, but this was part of a very large collection (noted on the slab) that was submitted for slabbing. As for the coins, there was nothing to choose between them in terms of wear or marks, and I've seen a few.

[Peter 615]

TPG's are not experts in every field.Why do people even believe this?

I don't take my Lada to be serviced at a BMW dealer.If they only own a Krause how the heck can they describe anything.

At one time I bought a few coins based on a slab grade from the US "big two" never again I want Dave's dinner plate sized pictures

BTW RIP Lada

[declanwmagee 122]

Blinkin' slabs. Just got this slabbed by PCGS as MS64. Look at them acorn knobbles, particularly the top one between THREE and PENCE. That much flattening gets it dangerously close to EF in my book.

MS64? Really?

just to clarify, I bought it slabbed - I didn't GET it slabbed...

Edited September 23, 2012 by declanwmagee

[Rob 2,996]

Blinkin' slabs. Just got this slabbed by PCGS as MS64. Look at them acorn knobbles, particularly the top one between THREE and PENCE. That much flattening gets it dangerously close to EF in my book.

MS64? Really?

just to clarify, I bought it slabbed - I didn't GET it slabbed...

I don't think anyone would accuse you of doing that.

[Coinery 926]

It is quite disappointing to see this, especially since it seems like TPGers are the norm for any coin ~$50+ here in the US, I even know of a dealer who sells all of his ancient coins slabbed by NGC, despite the fact that the coins (although not junk late Roman bronzes) aren't exactly rare or unusual. The ads in every numismatic magazine seem to be offering PCGS slabbed this, NGC slabbed that, in fact, they've started submitting bulk "monster boxes" of silver eagles to TPGers and selling the "perfect" MS-70s for a huge markup. But adding to the problem of "grade inflation" and fake slabs we now have fake coins getting slabbed as genuine when they are obviously cast copies.

It is a shame for sure, as I for one would've taken a chance on an NGC slab blind before seeing this! It would've been more palatable if it was a really good quality fake but, honestly, I've handled 2 examples of this cast copy, it's obvious in the extreme!

Sadly for PCGS and others, it has coloured my judgement of them too!

I found an NGC Elizabeth Hammered a while back that even had the wrong denomination on it. Not a three-farthing/threehalfpence confusion, but sixpence/groat (and it wasn't a roseless sixpence either). The only saving grace now is that I might, as Rob suggests, find a glaring (or subtle) error to my advantage, and that's what I am looking for now in NGC (maybe I'll find that rare roseless coin slabbed as a penny or something ). I look forward to acquiring, and hearing about other's one-upmanships in this respect!

Really obvious mistakes should definitely be picked up by the TPG. Failures like this suggest that they are being lazy (i.e. just accepting the submitter's description) and have poor quality control (not ensuring multiple checks of the principal grader's opinion). In my opinion mistakes should be reported back to the TPG and should be taken very seriously (a full examination of the audit trail for that particular coin being investigated and lessons learnt). Without this forensic examination the whole process could become worthless. Personally, while I'm not a particular fan of the TPG process, I would definitely not want it to lose all credibility. The damage, should that happen, would ultimately affect all collectors be serious threat to the credibility of our hobby.

I have reported mis-attribution before (to CGS) and not had a serious response beyond 'we will look into it'. Perhaps we should consider writing as a community when one of us discovers a mistake, explaining our serious concern that such obvious errors are a threat to the efficacy of the whole TPG system and that we expect the error to be investigated fully, the results made public (or at least communicated to us), and the necessary remedial action taken.

Perhaps this sounds OTT, but I think the whole issue needs addressing urgently. I do believe that this affects us all.

Definately poor quality control! I have to confess I sent around 20 coins for slabbing a while ago...took 3 months to get them back! The only explanation I can offer for this timescale, is they must be absolutely inundated with material, which means the £££ signs are likely blinding their judgement.

If credibility fell out of the slab market, the investment angle would collapse in a very short time, and the knock-on effect from that would surely be massive; all that high-end material with only the genuine collectors to sell it back to, it could trigger a major fall in coin prices (or am I being too sensitive?).

The TPG's have brought major investments to the coin market, which I presume to be the cornerstone of the increases we've all enjoyed for a long time. It's my thoughts that it won't be any global economic circumstance that brings about a future crash in coin prices, I think we've got our own smoking bomb in the TPG's.

Also, 'we will look into it' is as perfect a political response as we'll ever get from them! To bring audit and accountability into TPG practice would undermine them in a moment, so I'm not sure how that would work, the trust would never return. They will just have to keep burying, plugging holes, sweeping under carpets, and remain as detached from complaints as possible, otherwise, like any Government that gets found out, they'd be history!

[Peter 615]

Blinkin' slabs. Just got this slabbed by PCGS as MS64. Look at them acorn knobbles, particularly the top one between THREE and PENCE. That much flattening gets it dangerously close to EF in my book.

MS64? Really?

just to clarify, I bought it slabbed - I didn't GET it slabbed...

Declan I would break it out send it to CGS and then get it published in Coin News.I wouldn't give it EF.MS 64 should be a nice Unc.Wasters.

[declanwmagee 122]

Declan I would break it out send it to CGS and then get it published in Coin News.I wouldn't give it EF.MS 64 should be a nice Unc.Wasters.

So that's both NGC and PCGS not to be trusted where British predecimal is concerned. I mean, it's hardly a minority interest area is it? Hardly obscure.

And another thing... I had to pay Royal Mail £8 for the privilege of getting charged £1.22 VAT for its import from the US.

Harumph.

[Peter 615]

Declan I would break it out send it to CGS and then get it published in Coin News.I wouldn't give it EF.MS 64 should be a nice Unc.Wasters.

So that's both NGC and PCGS not to be trusted where British predecimal is concerned. I mean, it's hardly a minority interest area is it? Hardly obscure.

And another thing... I had to pay Royal Mail £8 for the privilege of getting charged £1.22 VAT for its import from the US.

Harumph.

I have bought slabbed coins from CC from MS 63 to 65 and to be honest have graded themselves.I have seen some scandles from CGS.Just pop it it up here

Bonjour our NGC PCGS ANACS twats.

[azda 973]

Lol, straight to the point as usual Peter As i mnetioned earlier, this just Shows that whatever a TPG grades at, it can be wrong and can be a fake regardless of what they say and should be very worrying for slab collectors.

The American slab colectors should be the most fearful, they'll fall on their arse eventually. Mind you saying all that, Paulus bought that mickey mouse Northumberland earlier this Year, from an auction House via the bay, whatever happened about that Paul?

Edited September 23, 2012 by azda

[Coinery 926]

Lol, straight to the point as usual Peter As i mnetioned earlier, this just Shows that whatever a TPG grades at, it can be wrong and can be a fake regardless of what they say and should be very worrying for slab collectors.

The American slab colectors should be the most fearful, they'll fall on their arse eventually. Mind you saying all that, Paulus bought that mickey mouse Northumberland earlier this Year, from an auction House via the bay, whatever happened about that Paul?

I'm sure I read somewhere that it was resolved and he was not out of pocket?

[azda 973]

Lol, straight to the point as usual Peter As i mnetioned earlier, this just Shows that whatever a TPG grades at, it can be wrong and can be a fake regardless of what they say and should be very worrying for slab collectors.

The American slab colectors should be the most fearful, they'll fall on their arse eventually. Mind you saying all that, Paulus bought that mickey mouse Northumberland earlier this Year, from an auction House via the bay, whatever happened about that Paul?

I'm sure I read somewhere that it was resolved and he was not out of pocket?

Lets ask the Horses Mouth................Paul, what happened with that piece of shite you bought?

[Coinery 926]

Lol, straight to the point as usual Peter As i mnetioned earlier, this just Shows that whatever a TPG grades at, it can be wrong and can be a fake regardless of what they say and should be very worrying for slab collectors.

The American slab colectors should be the most fearful, they'll fall on their arse eventually. Mind you saying all that, Paulus bought that mickey mouse Northumberland earlier this Year, from an auction House via the bay, whatever happened about that Paul?

I'm sure I read somewhere that it was resolved and he was not out of pocket?

Lets ask the Horses Mouth................Paul, what happened with that piece of shite you bought?

Just like my old mate, Kev Thomson! Must be something about being a Dundonian!

[Paulus 1,942]

Lol, straight to the point as usual Peter As i mnetioned earlier, this just Shows that whatever a TPG grades at, it can be wrong and can be a fake regardless of what they say and should be very worrying for slab collectors.

The American slab colectors should be the most fearful, they'll fall on their arse eventually. Mind you saying all that, Paulus bought that mickey mouse Northumberland earlier this Year, from an auction House via the bay, whatever happened about that Paul?

I'm sure I read somewhere that it was resolved and he was not out of pocket?

Lets ask the Horses Mouth................Paul, what happened with that piece of shite you bought?

Yes it was resolved eventually, and I was fully refunded ... got it ex Downies, I happened to be in Melbourne in February and took the coin to them where they (the top coin auctioneer) gave it a clean bill of health - mainly on the basis that it was a lower grade than the fakes they had seen and their seller was reputable. Then I took some advice on here (yours I think Dave, thanks), and with Rob et al repeatly casting (!) doubt on it I sent it to be graded/authenticated by CGS. It came back as dodgy and on the strength of that I got my refund, so CGS worked for me on that occasion. I did post at that time, but thanks again to everyone who advised me!

[Peckris 579]

Blinkin' slabs. Just got this slabbed by PCGS as MS64. Look at them acorn knobbles, particularly the top one between THREE and PENCE. That much flattening gets it dangerously close to EF in my book.

MS64? Really?

just to clarify, I bought it slabbed - I didn't GET it slabbed...

Reserve judgement... If you look closely at that, it appears there may be some gunk trapped between the top acorn and the slab? It doesn't display typical wear, especially when you see the other acorns are ok. There's an 'edge' to that mark, and you can just make out the bobbles under it. Have another look Declan, you may find it's not worn as you think it is?

[declanwmagee 122]

Reserve judgement... If you look closely at that, it appears there may be some gunk trapped between the top acorn and the slab? It doesn't display typical wear, especially when you see the other acorns are ok. There's an 'edge' to that mark, and you can just make out the bobbles under it. Have another look Declan, you may find it's not worn as you think it is?

I just had a close look under the loupe, Peck, and you are, to a certain extent, right. Though not as much right as the photos I have posted here might suggest, I can see what you mean. Perhaps the slabber was eating a particularly flaky pasty, or rolling a cigarette with particularly old tobacco, at the time it was sealed.

Phew, my confidence in them is restored!