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VickySilver

1853 Currency Groat - Has Anybody Ever Actually Seen One?

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Despite my nomen, and having a bit of experience in the field, I must confess to not ever seeing or knowing certainly of this coin. I am lucky to have the proof, but have never seen this coin. It reminds me a bit of the 1854 half sovereign. The 1853 currency 3d is quite rare and almost always available from Maundy sets and NOT currency.

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Despite my nomen, and having a bit of experience in the field, I must confess to not ever seeing or knowing certainly of this coin. I am lucky to have the proof, but have never seen this coin. It reminds me a bit of the 1854 half sovereign. The 1853 currency 3d is quite rare and almost always available from Maundy sets and NOT currency.

I haven't seen one, but confess to not having specifically looked for one.

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Hmmmmm, nope lol

Edited by azda

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only like 11k minted, so i havn't seen one either. i have an 1888 though :/

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Dredge this bit up again - 1853 groats (non-Maundy, non-proof) -

still no sign or evidence of any currency groats of this year. Nobody seems to ever have seen one either. Perhaps this is the rarest currency Victorian silver coin? Not that I would be interested in one, LOL!

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Maybe this was only ever an urban myth - is it supposed to have the Britannia reverse or the 4d reverse?

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Booking at roughly 10x the common ones, I suspect this is one of those where the number has been plucked out of the air.

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I still need one of these to complete the date run, but have never seen one in 30 years. With such a low mintage its likely that very few survived in any condition, let alone in a decent grade.

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I have had a "full court press on" as they say in basketball for about 25 years trying to locate a specimen, and the currency coin (yes, with Britannia reverse) may not exist and that the reported 11,000 specimens struck may have been of another date as was known to be custom at the mint. For now, I think it may be in the same category as the 1854 half sovereign.

To give you an idea, the 1862 Britannia groat in proof is thought to be very rare but is almost common in a relative sense, and at least I have one of those but it is this currency strike '53 that has eluded me along with the 1857 proof that has managed to come up twice at times of economic inconvenience.

I'd be in at 20+ X the price of a pedestrian date specimen...

Edited by VickySilver

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And for that matter, has anyone ever seen / got a picture of a definite 1843 over 53 (or 4 over 5) groat?? Catalogues suggest not much premium over the standard date, but I've been looking out for this overdate for ages and am yet to see a convincing specimen!

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Uhh, I do have one. Pictures are another matter. Mine is very convincing, to say the least. Gotten off ebay @ ~35 quid about 3 years ago...

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I have attached cropped reverse pics of 3 different britannia groats can anyone assist with proof verses currency strikes? have to add pics one at a time unfortunately post-7912-0-22380200-1393071665_thumb.jp

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It's only an opinion, but I'd say that 2 and 3 are definitely proofs. It could be argued that 1 is currency - there's an unevenness to the teeth.

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Very interestingly, the last one of the three examples has a markedly diiferent font for the digit 5 from the other two (with an 'indented' top bar, squatter shape and more bulbous loop, exactly like the 5 in the rare 1852 groats), and also the 3 seems to have been repaired/repunched extensively, especially in the top loop. Would a proof display such a poor repair?

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Yes, the latter two are def. proof, but I think the first ?may? be proof as well - the edge of the shield on the first is also a bit uneven with some wear to Brit's toes to boot (ha ha pun)...

Still think in balance it may be a proof - can you provide a picture(s) of the rest of the first coin?

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thanks for the interest these groats are fascinating. The groat labelled cased proof is the same die pairing as that in the recent EPN sale at Heritage were it was called a proof and yes the damaged numerals are an issue for a proof strike. The obverses are also very interesting with what might be a later 3d die used for one of the coins - kindly check the hair over ear and the hair detail in general at left near the rim. I expect the rim and post-7912-0-90418800-1393109064_thumb.jppost-7912-0-37854600-1393109068_thumb.jppost-7912-0-68359100-1393109070_thumb.jpedges are the best marker for proof versus business strikes . I will send obverses next sorry about the compression

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Here are the all important obverse 1853 groat pics what was going on at the Mint with 3d dies? and again thanks in advance for your comments any knowledge shared is much appreciated . All these coins are in medal alignment post-7912-0-53634800-1393109364_thumb.jppost-7912-0-96308200-1393109367_thumb.jppost-7912-0-16411200-1393109370_thumb.jp

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Yes, I think they all look like proofs now. But you're right - what's with three separate obverse types for a proof-only issue? Perhaps they are not so much proofs as patterns, trialling different obverses, perhaps even at different times.

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Thanks Peckris, if proofs were double struck then the obvious candidate is the early obv die example here labelled cased proof -it appears to have been multiple struck or perhaps the die sinker was having a bad day!. They were all purchased as proofs with provenance built into the file identifiers used here. I expect some of these were struck to order much later than 1853 does anyone know if all those different obverse dies were available at the same time? My guess is once a new obverse was approved the older ones were no longer used.

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The question of later strikes is a difficult one in the case of 1853 sets because they are so much rarer than the 1839s. There is reason to believe the 1839 sets were made throughout the currency of the YH bust until superseded by the JH coinage in 1887 on the grounds that one 1839 sixpence die pairing uses an obverse with the last YH (ESC 1738). You also find the 1839 proof halfpenny using recut dies from 1841 and 1843, the former at least has an inverted die axis which may be indicative of a very late strike, and is by far the rarest of the three. However, I'm not convinced that there were sufficient numbers of 1853 sets to warrant cutting so many dies for the groat. Two dies possibly, three is unlikely. A simple off the top of the head survey of 1853 proof halfpennies for example produces no more than one or occasionally two a year. Some years see half a dozen 1839s. Obviously some of these are the same piece re-surfacing, but 1853 is clearly significantly rarer.

There was an article in the latest Circular concerning the rarity of the 1853 bronzed proofs. The number of sales (not coins) recorded for 1839 pennies was 104 bronzed; 1841 pennies - 15 bronzed, 10 copper; 1853 pennies - 62 copper, 3 bronzed; 1856 pennies - 15 copper; 1859 pennies - 15 copper. 1853. The halfpennies yielded 4 occurrences of potential bronzed pieces. One probable was subsequently confirmed, along with another confirmed. The fourth (doubtful) piece I was able to confirm as a copper proof (Norweb 1774). Farthings showed 3 confirmed and one probable bronzed proof.

The question now is whether this info can be productively employed. Clearly it shows both copper and bronzed issues for the 1853 proofs. Whether the bronzed pieces are a reflection of a different date of manufacture is a moot point. Ideally we could do with a full set in an original box to have any hope of dating the individual coins. It is possible that 1853 sets could be produced later to order, just as the 1839s obviously were. Possibly significant is the colour of my 1839/41. This has a completely different colouration to any other 1839 proof I've seen to date. So different in fact, that I would like to compare in the hand with any bronzed 1853 piece to see if there is any possibility of them being contemporary.

Edited by Rob

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Hi Rob yes they must have been struck to order, can you possible give me a reference or better still a link to the circular re the Cu/Bronze?

So off topic a bit; for the 1853 bronzed versus copper pieces kindly have a look at these three halfpenny obverses. I think 2 are Cu and one is bronzed I have included 2 pics of each using different lighting in a vain attempt to give a better feel for their colour. The bronzing can introduce a micro pitting in parts what do you think? The last coin obverse has to load separately - see next post-7912-0-28849900-1393121493_thumb.jppost-7912-0-58190100-1393121517_thumb.jppost-7912-0-71779800-1393121583_thumb.jppost-7912-0-76372900-1393121600_thumb.jp

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the last halfpenny pair now this is Cu! post-7912-0-67484100-1393121966_thumb.jp .It appears to struck from the same dies as the one I am currently assigning bronzing to

post-7912-0-25160900-1393122098_thumb.jp

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I quite agree that with the full pictures that all three groats appear as proofs.

I am somewhat dubious of the practice of using edges and periphery to judge a coin as proof. Even though "great care" is supposedly taken with proofs, I think some may come off a bit sloppy with regards to planchet prep, and even die prep and maintenance, not to mention strike.

IMO, one must keep an open mind and try to weigh as many attributes of a coin as possible before making pronouncements such as this. I have "cherry picked" some proofs before that were sold as currency, and a few the opposite - currency specimens that were clearly not proof. It is sometimes a tough call as others may possibly agree.

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