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copper123

A nice tone on copper and what it's worth

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In the absence of getting upgrades on coins in my collection , I have now started buying similar grade coins to the ones i have now but with a better tone (colour) , I really love the light coloured chocolate tone on early bronze and copper.

Early Victorian bronze is harder to find with a good tone than the copper

Anyone think this is a waste of time , or is eye appeal not valued in this country (Unlike the states).

IMHO a lovely toned copper George IV penny for example is a real thing of beauty and to be admired a black toned one does very little for me , but I might consider it as a space filler.

I sell the spares on ebay - this sort of upgrade usually cost me 20% of the coins value , so it really is not that expensive.

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Eye Appeal is probably lost on some people, especially people who buy from eBay . A majority of collectors on the forum do however like eye appeal, Peter, Peckris and myself are 3 examples.

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Collecting is all about eye appeal. Whatever floats your boat is what you should be buying. You are not buying coins to satisfy other collectors' tastes.

I am surprised you are unable to upgrade your copper coins, as most dates are obtainable up to mint state with full lustre if you have the patience and are prepared to spend an appropriate amount of dosh.

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Do you think eye appeal comes with age and experience then ?

After all the older you get the more coins you see and maybe the more fussy you become. :)

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Do you think eye appeal comes with age and experience then ?

After all the older you get the more coins you see and maybe the more fussy you become. :)

Your taste invariably changes to some extent with time. The more you see, the pickier you become as you remember what looked better compared to other coins.

People whose experience is mostly via ebay frequently think they have a gem becuae they have been sold a coin which was described as full lustre. That lustre may be due to the coin having been polished as the number of mirrors for sale will testify. Only by handling a range of coins in all grades can you appreciate the full range of (natural) colours that can be found. The higher the grades seen the less environmental damage these coins are likely to have suffered and in all probability will offer the greater eye appeal. Well circulated coins will mostly be grubby with lashings of finger grease and dirt. This will not normally enhance the eye appeal.

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well yes i would like to upgrade quite a lot of my coins to be honest but a lot of the top quality stuff is at prices I am not really prepared to pay , for instance i have a lovely 1851 farthing in GVF nice tone and attractive ,cost me £14 if I wanted an ef with lustre I am sure it would cost around £80 or more, big jump .

Am i just mean then ???

Probably

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well yes i would like to upgrade quite a lot of my coins to be honest but a lot of the top quality stuff is at prices I am not really prepared to pay , for instance i have a lovely 1851 farthing in GVF nice tone and attractive ,cost me £14 if I wanted an ef with lustre I am sure it would cost around £80 or more, big jump .

Am i just mean then ???

Probably

Sounds like it. :) It really boils down to what grade you are happy with. At the bottom end of the collector market many people tend to accumulate as many coins as possible without too much consideration of grade as long as the coin is cheap and they don't have an example. In the middle you find a large number of people who are willing to pick up things that are cheap relative to the prices quoted in the various yearbooks, whilst still making the odd purchase of the more difficult items at a price closer to book. The collection also tends to become more refined. The higher the grade sought, the fewer times these opportunities arise because the large surplus of material over the number of collectors at the bottom end is eventually reversed to the extent that the number of collectors outweighs the material available. The result is that prices take off in high grades for many things. You also find that high grade collections tend to be focussed as a result because the pot of money available for coin purchases is not infinite.

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OK I love BU but an evenly nice toned piece is always sought by me.

A BU with a carbon spot or a finger print I will look elsewhere.

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OK I love BU but an evenly nice toned piece is always sought by me.

A BU with a carbon spot or a finger print I will look elsewhere.

I think I may be less fussy than most, but that is mainly due to the fact that I want to study varieties first, and the easiest way is to pick up the coins that may have the odd blemish/knock. I know that may not be the most prudent from a re-sale perspective but it helps with my budget.

However once the first study aspect has been carried out, I do find that I then upgrade based on aesthetics. I do like a nice lustred coin, but there are some dog ugly lustred coins out there :P

I do not look for a specific tone to get my collection to match, I tend to just like eye appeal (in the end) whether it be through an even tone, or a light underlying luster.

The bizarre thing I find is that I do not like finger prints, I would rather have a larger carbon spot than a print, and minor edge knocks do not cause me major concern either, whereas I know others hate them.

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dont mind that much, edge knocks are just part of the process imo.

toning, always nice to have some, I look for it in silver, it shows that it is Genunine age.

dont mind a fingerprint so much on EF stuff

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No comparison there Peter.... I have to agree that their coin is horrible. I've bought a couple of coins through CC recently and been very happy with them so I guess it proves you should never dismiss eBay and you should always shop around.

Regarding toning versus lustre. The very best bronze coins will have lustre and, other than in exceptional cases, the more lustre the better (to me) and more valuable the coin to the market (generally). The exceptions are dirty or streaky lustred examples. With copper coins I think lustre is less important though certainly desirable. A beautifully toned copper coin may well supplant a poor, streaky lustred coin. Overall though, my objective to find a full lustre example of every coin in the series (impossible, of course).

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Colin wouldn't even try to sell that crap. :(

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In the absence of getting upgrades on coins in my collection , I have now started buying similar grade coins to the ones i have now but with a better tone (colour) , I really love the light coloured chocolate tone on early bronze and copper.

Early Victorian bronze is harder to find with a good tone than the copper

Anyone think this is a waste of time , or is eye appeal not valued in this country (Unlike the states).

IMHO a lovely toned copper George IV penny for example is a real thing of beauty and to be admired a black toned one does very little for me , but I might consider it as a space filler.

I sell the spares on ebay - this sort of upgrade usually cost me 20% of the coins value , so it really is not that expensive.

well yes i would like to upgrade quite a lot of my coins to be honest but a lot of the top quality stuff is at prices I am not really prepared to pay , for instance i have a lovely 1851 farthing in GVF nice tone and attractive ,cost me £14 if I wanted an ef with lustre I am sure it would cost around £80 or more, big jump .

Am i just mean then ???

Probably

I do agree with you - eye appeal is everything. And if I had to choose between a GVF with attractive even tone, and EF with part lustre at 5 times the price, I know which one I'd go for! One thing though - I wouldn't dismiss an even black tone on a high grade item (I have an EF 1807 halfpenny that is a lovely dark almost black tone, and I love it).

In relation to what, exactly? CC doesn't have a 1732, though they have a wide range of other GII dates from scruffy Fines to Unc.

Edited by Peckris

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CC grading has dropped on early copper.

I bought the Ebay coin and in hand very pleased.

I recently bought a 1679 from ebay (John Newman) and was delighted.CC are over grading.

My opinion but 40 years collecting. :(

Edited by Peter

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CC grading has dropped on early copper.

CC are over grading.

My opinion but 40 years collecting. :(

I thought that when I was visiting their site at the time of my C2 5/3 farthing query. I couldn't believe some of the W3&M stuff either, but especially the C2 material.

CC not spot on, Spink's listing fakes, what's it all coming to? Bring back the Shanghai boys, all is forgiven! ;)

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there is a 1732 on there

prefer the ebay 1

CC grading has dropped on early copper.

I bought the Ebay coin and in hand very pleased.

I recently bought a 1679 from ebay (John Newman) and was delighted.CC are over grading.

My opinion but 40 years collecting. :(

Oh yes, I keep forgetting that CC go 'recent -> older' unlike most other sellers. To be honest, their poor grading for Fine and below is a long standing thing. They always accept returns without quibble though, as did the man himself before he became late. But you're right, the eBay one is a bargain at half the price, and a better coin.

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Do you think eye appeal comes with age and experience then ?

After all the older you get the more coins you see and maybe the more fussy you become. :)

You sound like an ebay buyer who seems to want a good coin for buttons. If you want said coin, look around and see if you can get the same for cheaper.........If not, and you like it then buy it. Quality coins will always cost cash, higher grades especially. You want a high grade coin that suits your collection then its entirely up to you at the end of the day, you can always sell off the coin it's to replace for 14 quid ;)

P.s, see next post

Edited by azda

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Colin wouldn't even try to sell that crap. :(

Its maybe a sign of the times that good coins are harder to come by.........I'm not a huge fan of CC as i bought about 4 and sent 1 back from the 4........They were obviously at one time a bigger dealer than they are now. Poor grading will always come back to haunt anyone, good grading will only enhance a reputation and repeat business

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Colin wouldn't even try to sell that crap. :(

Its maybe a sign of the times that good coins are harder to come by.........I'm not a huge fan of CC as i bought about 4 and sent 1 back from the 4........They were obviously at one time a bigger dealer than they are now. Poor grading will always come back to haunt anyone, good grading will only enhance a reputation and repeat business

Couldn't agree more Dave, my favourite dealers for accurate grading are our very own Rob and Michael Gouby, I have had issues with many well known others!

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Colin wouldn't even try to sell that crap. :(

Its maybe a sign of the times that good coins are harder to come by.........I'm not a huge fan of CC as i bought about 4 and sent 1 back from the 4........They were obviously at one time a bigger dealer than they are now. Poor grading will always come back to haunt anyone, good grading will only enhance a reputation and repeat business

Couldn't agree more Dave, my favourite dealers for accurate grading are our very own Rob and Michael Gouby, I have had issues with many well known others!

Problem being Paul, that good coins will cost top end and perhaps where copper123 is not prepared to go, you have to decide eventually. Mr Gouby has an 1875H penny which i have an issue with his grading on, I had a much better one but he's grading his as EF, in my mind it's no chance in hell as being EF. His price 750 quid, i sold mine to a forum member for 400

Edited by azda

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Colin wouldn't even try to sell that crap. :(

Its maybe a sign of the times that good coins are harder to come by.........I'm not a huge fan of CC as i bought about 4 and sent 1 back from the 4........They were obviously at one time a bigger dealer than they are now. Poor grading will always come back to haunt anyone, good grading will only enhance a reputation and repeat business

Couldn't agree more Dave, my favourite dealers for accurate grading are our very own Rob and Michael Gouby, I have had issues with many well known others!

Problem being Paul, that good coins will cost top end and perhaps where copper123 is not prepared to go, you have to decide eventually. Mr Gouby has an 1875H penny which i have an issue with his grading on, I had a much better one but he's grading his as EF, in my mind it's no chance in hell as being EF. His price 750 quid, i sold mine to a forum member for 400

I have been pleased so far with my first few purchases from Michael, most of which I saw 'in the flesh' at his shop ... I think you are a strict grader which is a good thing, but I have yet to buy from you! Here is my first purchase from Michael which perhaps colours my judgement!:

1663_Shilling_Sellers_Rev01.png

1663_Shilling_Sellers_Obv01.png

Described as nVF and £210, which I thought was an extremely good buy ... other members' opinions may differ! I did visit him recently and he was upping his prices, stating that he could no longer buy the same coins in the same grades for what he was selling them for. And I have yet to/may not ever get into copper/bronze, which is undoubtedly a different area of expertise! Only going by personal experience of course, have been happy with John Newman lately (as I read so have others), while I feel Colin Cooke, Bucks Coins and INGRAM offerings are consistently over-graded and/or overpriced ... also noting that more and more 'bricks and mortar' / traditional dealers are listing on the Bay!

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Thanks for the many posts and opinions you all have given .

I must say as well that the 1851 farthing in GVF also has the destinction of not one edge knock and this is quite unusual for early copper, in fact the edge is superb. :P

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NVF on that obverse is not very accurate I would say , i have no probs with the reverse.

a really lovely coin at a good price :D

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