CROWNS

[divemaster 11]

Ski - my eyes are getting ropey now to, i have just recieved (from internet) a small magifying glass with light thats 60x magnification that is absolutely incredible. An apparently perfect coin under this can show show masses! Only £5 each.

at that mag, can you hold it still?...

Yes it shocked me, but its so small and useable that you can almost rest the thing on the coin. Never again will i use an ordinary eye glass!

[ski 1]

ah mr divemaster.....me thinks you mean die pairings.....

die numbers were used in the victorian times just above the date on the reverses of coins, this was done to assess wear on the dies.....mostly during the 1860's i think.....

Edited September 17, 2012 by ski

[ski 1]

where did you buy it....from the bay?

[divemaster 11]

ah mr divemaster.....me thinks you mean die pairings.....

die numbers were used in the victorian times just above the date on the reverses of coins, this was done to assess wear on the dies.....mostly during the 1860's i think.....

Take your word for it, i just see "die" this and that in all the descriptions?

[divemaster 11]

I was told about them by a guy at London Coin Auction. He told me to search "currency detecting with LED microscope" these then appeared for sale for about a fiver. Awesome!

[ski 1]

Take your word for it, i just see "die" this and that in all the descriptions?

no need to take my word for it.....

heres an article on die numbers....http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/dieno.html

the number of the particular die used is above the date (usually) and for some coins can run to over 100....see the article. and heres a link within that article that shows a die number,http://www.coins-of-the-uk.co.uk/pics/qv/6d/dn77r.jpg

A die pairing is the relationship between obverse die and reverse die and its given a number in the series, such as 1+a or 1+b or 2+a and so on, the number being the obverse die used and the letter being the reverse die used.

Edited September 17, 2012 by ski

[Peckris 579]

I can see why some collect all the 1893 variants, but it must be hard to learn all the various streamer designs and die numbers etc etc!

Die numbers? In 1893??

CGS and others catalogue the variants with Die numbers

I don't think so!!

But I note that ski has explained the difference between "die numbers" (which appear on the coin itself), and "die combinations" (i.e. obverse and reverse pairings, as used in Freeman, Peck, ESC, many other sources, and no doubt CGS also).

[VickySilver 775]

Yikes, we have gotten away from the OP a bit!

But, on a slightly related topic to that just broached, I think it interesting how little interest seems to be displayed in Regnal years for the Widow Head series. The 1893 LVII is fairly scarce to rare in GEF and above as an example.

[divemaster 11]

What publication for coin prices do all you guys use for reference when buying? Do you use auction sale price history as a guidance?

I used to take references from "Coin Yearbook" and others but they can vary so much. Problem is that if us coin collectors need a certain coin we pay to much, or is it just me!!

[declanwmagee 122]

What publication for coin prices do all you guys use for reference when buying? Do you use auction sale price history as a guidance?

I used to take references from "Coin Yearbook" and others but they can vary so much. Problem is that if us coin collectors need a certain coin we pay to much, or is it just me!!

I take an average of 4:

CCGB 2011 (about right)

Coin Yearbook 2012 (too low)

British Coins Market Values 2012 (way too low)

Spink 2012 (way too high)

I then use a sliding scale based on grade to determine what I'd pay:

F 20% of book average

VF 42% of book average

EF 67% of book average

UNC 92% of book average

...and every intermediate grade in between, of course.

This biases my successful bidding towards the top grades, which has to be a good thing. Lower grades I only tend to win if they are dirt cheap, which again, is what you'd want to happen!

sorry, but you did ask!

[Rob 2,998]

I think all publications are subject to errors in various departments. The only way to know the market price is to do your own research.

[Peckris 579]

What publication for coin prices do all you guys use for reference when buying? Do you use auction sale price history as a guidance?

I used to take references from "Coin Yearbook" and others but they can vary so much. Problem is that if us coin collectors need a certain coin we pay to much, or is it just me!!

I take an average of 4:

CCGB 2011 (about right)

Coin Yearbook 2012 (too low)

British Coins Market Values 2012 (way too low)

Spink 2012 (way too high)

I then use a sliding scale based on grade to determine what I'd pay:

F 20% of book average

VF 42% of book average

EF 67% of book average

UNC 92% of book average

...and every intermediate grade in between, of course.

This biases my successful bidding towards the top grades, which has to be a good thing. Lower grades I only tend to win if they are dirt cheap, which again, is what you'd want to happen!

sorry, but you did ask!

I think all publications are subject to errors in various departments. The only way to know the market price is to do your own research.

Apart from the assessment of the Coin Yearbook (which is a mixed bag, I find - some prices too high, some about right, some too low), I'd agree with Declan's assessment. I'm not sure I'd go so low as 20% of a Fine coin if I really wanted it though! Or 42% of a desired VF.

There are coins that are rare but usually found in low grade, and rarely or never featured in guides - 1911 'Gouby X' penny, 1903 'Open 3', 1915 'BRITT' farthing, etc - what do you pay for them? What you can afford, if you really want it. And that's the key, I think : we are generally willing to pay a higher price for items we really want, and that's not a bad guiding principle.

Rob's advice is very sound. One of the best ways to do research is to attend your nearest auction - they are attended by a mix of dealers and collectors, and with one or two exceptions (where a couple of collectors fight over a particular item) give a realistic idea of what to expect to pay.

Bottom line? If you use Spink as your reference, you WILL pay too much. (Been there, done that, got the T shirt..)

Edited September 20, 2012 by Peckris

[Rob 2,998]

What publication for coin prices do all you guys use for reference when buying? Do you use auction sale price history as a guidance?

I used to take references from "Coin Yearbook" and others but they can vary so much. Problem is that if us coin collectors need a certain coin we pay to much, or is it just me!!

I take an average of 4:

CCGB 2011 (about right)

Coin Yearbook 2012 (too low)

British Coins Market Values 2012 (way too low)

Spink 2012 (way too high)

I then use a sliding scale based on grade to determine what I'd pay:

F 20% of book average

VF 42% of book average

EF 67% of book average

UNC 92% of book average

...and every intermediate grade in between, of course.

This biases my successful bidding towards the top grades, which has to be a good thing. Lower grades I only tend to win if they are dirt cheap, which again, is what you'd want to happen!

sorry, but you did ask!

I think all publications are subject to errors in various departments. The only way to know the market price is to do your own research.

Apart from the assessment of the Coin Yearbook (which is a mixed bag, I find - some prices too high, some about right, some too low), I'd agree with Declan's assessment. I'm not sure I'd go so low as 20% of a Fine coin if I really wanted it though! Or 42% of a desired VF.

There are coins that are rare but usually found in low grade, and rarely or never featured in guides - 1911 'Gouby X' penny, 1903 'Open 3', 1915 'BRITT' farthing, etc - what do you pay for them? What you can afford, if you really want it. And that's the key, I think : we are generally willing to pay a higher price for items we really want, and that's not a bad guiding principle.

Rob's advice is very sound. One of the best ways to do research is to attend your nearest auction - they are attended by a mix of dealers and collectors, and with one or two exceptions (where a couple of collectors fight over a particular item) give a realistic idea of what to expect to pay.

Bottom line? If you use Spink as your reference, you WILL pay too much. (Been there, done that, got the T shirt..)

Not necessarily. Modern things definitely, but once you go back to Victoria or earlier, then the results are more mixed. Godless florin £450 in UNC - overpriced, 1848 pattern £1600 FDC - if only. The last one I bought (3 years ago) cost me £2500. The FDC price then was £1100.

Edited September 20, 2012 by Rob

[Accumulator 52]

What publication for coin prices do all you guys use for reference when buying? Do you use auction sale price history as a guidance?

I used to take references from "Coin Yearbook" and others but they can vary so much. Problem is that if us coin collectors need a certain coin we pay to much, or is it just me!!

I take an average of 4:

CCGB 2011 (about right)

Coin Yearbook 2012 (too low)

British Coins Market Values 2012 (way too low)

Spink 2012 (way too high)

I then use a sliding scale based on grade to determine what I'd pay:

F 20% of book average

VF 42% of book average

EF 67% of book average

UNC 92% of book average

...and every intermediate grade in between, of course.

This biases my successful bidding towards the top grades, which has to be a good thing. Lower grades I only tend to win if they are dirt cheap, which again, is what you'd want to happen!

sorry, but you did ask!

I think all publications are subject to errors in various departments. The only way to know the market price is to do your own research.

Apart from the assessment of the Coin Yearbook (which is a mixed bag, I find - some prices too high, some about right, some too low), I'd agree with Declan's assessment. I'm not sure I'd go so low as 20% of a Fine coin if I really wanted it though! Or 42% of a desired VF.

There are coins that are rare but usually found in low grade, and rarely or never featured in guides - 1911 'Gouby X' penny, 1903 'Open 3', 1915 'BRITT' farthing, etc - what do you pay for them? What you can afford, if you really want it. And that's the key, I think : we are generally willing to pay a higher price for items we really want, and that's not a bad guiding principle.

Rob's advice is very sound. One of the best ways to do research is to attend your nearest auction - they are attended by a mix of dealers and collectors, and with one or two exceptions (where a couple of collectors fight over a particular item) give a realistic idea of what to expect to pay.

Bottom line? If you use Spink as your reference, you WILL pay too much. (Been there, done that, got the T shirt..)

Not necessarily. Modern things definitely, but once you go back to Victoria or earlier, then the results are more mixed. Godless florin £450 in UNC - overpriced, 1848 pattern £1600 FDC - if only. The last one I bought (3 years ago) cost me £2500. The FDC price then was £1100.

I know that all the guides are, to some extent, based on prices asked/achieved but I personally find resources such as London Coins 'prices realised' and mcsearch.info give a much more direct handle on current market values. This is especially true where varieties or rarer coins are concerned. I have all of the above guides for either 2011 or 2012 but only really ever use Spink.

[VickySilver 775]

Deinatey no pat or stock answers as has been elucidated. You really just have to know your coins if you get into esoterica. Another example are the 1887 and 1893 5 sov pieces that have market prices everywhere (including outrageously high for slabbed "wondergrades").

What is the value of an uncirculated 1934 Wreath to bring it back to the OP? Well, depends on where sold, when sold, slabbed and by whom?, individual factors such as the usual lustre and strike and wear and tone, etc.

Ouch, it can get a bit complicated. I know that I have on occasion paid prices looked at as very high by outsiders and then have the coin double or treble even on the wholesale side within 5 or so years, and some I could really name my price on...(and then of course, the odd loser that just stagnates or never does catch fire ).

Collect what you can afford but study, study, take a few lumps, win a few, etc.

I would not, in returning to OP, pay huge prices even for a "certain" proof Wreath of a non-1927 year. There just is not the demand, and the presentation not all that special compared to the currency bits. Also, very difficult to pin exactly what price should be paid. Having said that, I really did stretch for a "certain" 1936 proof some 10 or 12 years ago....Uggh, well, it's not for sale regardless.

[divemaster 11]

I think that the elusive (in good grade) 1934 wreath crown will always be a good investment. I purchased my first unc some 16 years ago for £900 which since then has done better than my pension! Following through from that i now have 6 of them, 3 curreny uncs and 3 high graded proofs. I do believe that they will always be popular and continue to rise in value, if the past 16year trend continues, fingers crossed.

[divemaster 11]

VS - was that a 1936 wreath crown proof you eluded to owning?

[Gary D 76]

I think that the elusive (in good grade) 1934 wreath crown will always be a good investment. I purchased my first unc some 16 years ago for £900 which since then has done better than my pension! Following through from that i now have 6 of them, 3 curreny uncs and 3 high graded proofs. I do believe that they will always be popular and continue to rise in value, if the past 16year trend continues, fingers crossed.

What worries me about the 1934 crown, for a minage of 932 there seem an awful lot of them around.

[Peter 615]

I think that the elusive (in good grade) 1934 wreath crown will always be a good investment. I purchased my first unc some 16 years ago for £900 which since then has done better than my pension! Following through from that i now have 6 of them, 3 curreny uncs and 3 high graded proofs. I do believe that they will always be popular and continue to rise in value, if the past 16year trend continues, fingers crossed.

What worries me about the 1934 crown, for a minage of 932 there seem an awful lot of them around.

Now now Gary.The Chinese are getting good.NGC will slab them for you.

[Coinery 926]

I think that the elusive (in good grade) 1934 wreath crown will always be a good investment. I purchased my first unc some 16 years ago for £900 which since then has done better than my pension! Following through from that i now have 6 of them, 3 curreny uncs and 3 high graded proofs. I do believe that they will always be popular and continue to rise in value, if the past 16year trend continues, fingers crossed.

What worries me about the 1934 crown, for a minage of 932 there seem an awful lot of them around.

Now now Gary.The Chinese are getting good.NGC will slab them for you.

Now, now, Peter, what's wrong with NGC?

What we should all do is gather together a series of our best fakes (don't even have to be that good [grab all your brass G3 tokens, they'll do]) and submit them for slabbing! Once we've got more than a few done, we should then go to the biggest media shop window for numismatics and reduce their business to a status that's appropriate to their knowledge base!

Edited September 21, 2012 by Coinery

[Gary D 76]

I think that the elusive (in good grade) 1934 wreath crown will always be a good investment. I purchased my first unc some 16 years ago for £900 which since then has done better than my pension! Following through from that i now have 6 of them, 3 curreny uncs and 3 high graded proofs. I do believe that they will always be popular and continue to rise in value, if the past 16year trend continues, fingers crossed.

What worries me about the 1934 crown, for a minage of 932 there seem an awful lot of them around.

Now now Gary.The Chinese are getting good.NGC will slab them for you.

Now, now, Peter, what's wrong with NGC?

What we should all do is gather together a series of our best fakes (don't even have to be that good [grab all your brass G3 tokens, they'll do]) and submit them for slabbing! Once we've got more than a few done, we should then go to the biggest media shop window for numismatics and reduce their business to a status that's appropriate to their knowledge base!

I think the whole slabbing business is looking a bit sick at the moment, what with fake slabs and miss attributions. There was I think an NGC slab on ebay a couple of weeks ago, a 1905 silver 3d graded as MS with a Maundy 3d inside. Should have been Proof like or at least Maundy. MS is just wrong unless is was the elusive "to be confirmed" currency 3d with the Maundy obverse. I must admit I was tempted just in case until it went for over £50.

[divemaster 11]

Why all this "fake" talk as soon as i mention proofs?

[azda 973]

Why all this "fake" talk as soon as i mention proofs?

Divemaster, it's nothing to do with you mentioning Proofs, it's to do with fakes and fake slabs that are kicking about........Calm down and take a breath.............

[VickySilver 775]

Yes, that is a 1936 proof wreath that was and is part of a 1936 proof silver set. Nice! Coin def. gem and lacking the telltale cabinet friction at the cheekbone...

[divemaster 11]

Mmm sounds a beautifull set, any chance of a photo, i would love to see the crown for reference. Dont supose you would ever think about selling the set would you?