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Can anyone out there tell me how you can tell a proof from a normal strike, ie wreath crowns.

Is there something obvious to look for or is it all in the tone, and general finish?

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Can anyone out there tell me how you can tell a proof from a normal strike, ie wreath crowns.

Is there something obvious to look for or is it all in the tone, and general finish?

There's no point looking for a proof not dated 1927 - if they exist at all they will be mega rare and you should buy only from a reputable dealer. Otherwise, if it's dated 1927 it's a proof, if not, it's not. You won't see much difference between proof and non-proof wreath crowns, as they were struck in limited quantities to high standard (i.e., the mintages are too low to see die wear.) For some reason, you can see wear on the non-proofs, but this is probably more due to rubbing or keeping in a pocket, rather than genuine circulation. The 1927 crown will have a generally superior rim, and probably more of a mirrored field.

Ironically, the 1927 proof is the highest wreath crown mintage.

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Can you show a picture of the possible coin in question?

I agree with Peck that other than the 1927 dated proof, you are fairly safe in assuming currency strike. I would be glad to give an opinion as I have seen all dates in proof; these are not like modern proofs as Peck has said, and many if not most of the currency pieces have a proof like appearance due to the low mintage and short die life. I have seen "proofs" certified by major TPG (third party graders) that are almost certainly NOT.

There are many interesting sub-points to this discussion, and I for one would be glad to help - these are the coins that got me started collecting British, after all.

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Thanks for your input,what a massive, controversial subject! I am aiming to collect all wreaths in proof. I have gone a long way and only require two other dates 1936 and 1929. But what concerns me most is, are people, or anyone (including grading companies) really sure and accurate as to proof recognition. To all of my research (many years) and investigations, even surrounding potential proofs with other graded proofs, i have found no definitive marking, variation or anything, it seems to be purely based on tone, finish, lack of wear, lustre etc.What i need is someone who is more qualified and competant to give me guidelines.

Thank you all

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Thanks for your input,what a massive, controversial subject! I am aiming to collect all wreaths in proof. I have gone a long way and only require two other dates 1936 and 1929. But what concerns me most is, are people, or anyone (including grading companies) really sure and accurate as to proof recognition. To all of my research (many years) and investigations, even surrounding potential proofs with other graded proofs, i have found no definitive marking, variation or anything, it seems to be purely based on tone, finish, lack of wear, lustre etc.What i need is someone who is more qualified and competant to give me guidelines.

Thank you all

You are a brave chap to collect these.Very few circulated.Someone like yourself could maybe do a write up.

Chris Perkins the owner of this site is a bit of a wreath man.I think he has had a few 1934's through his books.I would suggest his advice.

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Thanks for your input,what a massive, controversial subject! I am aiming to collect all wreaths in proof. I have gone a long way and only require two other dates 1936 and 1929. But what concerns me most is, are people, or anyone (including grading companies) really sure and accurate as to proof recognition. To all of my research (many years) and investigations, even surrounding potential proofs with other graded proofs, i have found no definitive marking, variation or anything, it seems to be purely based on tone, finish, lack of wear, lustre etc.What i need is someone who is more qualified and competant to give me guidelines.

Thank you all

You are a brave chap to collect these.Very few circulated.Someone like yourself could maybe do a write up.

Chris Perkins the owner of this site is a bit of a wreath man.I think he has had a few 1934's through his books.I would suggest his advice.

The whole subject of separating proofs from currency or specimen strikes can be controversial. Side by side photos of an unc currency example and the suspected proof coin would go a long way to helping those on here decide, or at least comment further. I appreciate that often it's difficult to form an opinion without having the coin in hand and being able to play with reflected light though.

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Thanks for your input,what a massive, controversial subject! I am aiming to collect all wreaths in proof. I have gone a long way and only require two other dates 1936 and 1929. But what concerns me most is, are people, or anyone (including grading companies) really sure and accurate as to proof recognition. To all of my research (many years) and investigations, even surrounding potential proofs with other graded proofs, i have found no definitive marking, variation or anything, it seems to be purely based on tone, finish, lack of wear, lustre etc.What i need is someone who is more qualified and competant to give me guidelines.

Thank you all

In my opinion, this would be a virtually impossible task. Are there any officially recorded proofs, apart from 1927? There certainly are very rare proofs of many currency strikes, but you can't regard wreath crowns as currency, as they were specially struck for collectors. The numbers struck were so small that you could regard the first few as 'prooflike' but there would no obvious fall-off in the short life of the dies. The normal way to tell conclusively is to examine the rims - these are razor sharp on proofs, and the milling goes evenly from edge to edge. All other features - crispness of detail, absence of flaws, mirrored fields - can also be found on first strikes from a currency die, especially so where a proof die has been used for currency so as not to waste it.

Forgive me asking, but how do you know that the wreath crown proofs you already have, are really proofs? As has been noted, even TPG companies get it wrong.

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Thanks Peckris, when people tell me its vertually impossible to do something, it makes me go for it even harder! As for are the proofs i have real? all my purchases have provenance from leading coin experts/major collectors and dealers, then are graded and encapsulated by CGS, which i know there are MANY experts out there that poo poo slabbing but i believe it is another level of authenticity. This of course goes with many years (25) of my own research, and luckily the facility of having existing proofs which can be laid around any suspect coin for reference (this helps hugely).

Any more questions?

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Thanks Peckris, when people tell me its vertually impossible to do something, it makes me go for it even harder! As for are the proofs i have real? all my purchases have provenance from leading coin experts/major collectors and dealers, then are graded and encapsulated by CGS, which i know there are MANY experts out there that poo poo slabbing but i believe it is another level of authenticity. This of course goes with many years (25) of my own research, and luckily the facility of having existing proofs which can be laid around any suspect coin for reference (this helps hugely).

ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Can anyone out there tell me how you can tell a proof from a normal strike, ie wreath crowns.

Is there something obvious to look for or is it all in the tone, and general finish?

???????????

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Thanks Peckris, when people tell me its vertually impossible to do something, it makes me go for it even harder! As for are the proofs i have real? all my purchases have provenance from leading coin experts/major collectors and dealers, then are graded and encapsulated by CGS, which i know there are MANY experts out there that poo poo slabbing but i believe it is another level of authenticity. This of course goes with many years (25) of my own research, and luckily the facility of having existing proofs which can be laid around any suspect coin for reference (this helps hugely).

ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Can anyone out there tell me how you can tell a proof from a normal strike, ie wreath crowns.

Is there something obvious to look for or is it all in the tone, and general finish?

???????????

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Thanks Peckris, when people tell me its vertually impossible to do something, it makes me go for it even harder! As for are the proofs i have real? all my purchases have provenance from leading coin experts/major collectors and dealers, then are graded and encapsulated by CGS, which i know there are MANY experts out there that poo poo slabbing but i believe it is another level of authenticity. This of course goes with many years (25) of my own research, and luckily the facility of having existing proofs which can be laid around any suspect coin for reference (this helps hugely).

ANY MORE QUESTIONS?

Can anyone out there tell me how you can tell a proof from a normal strike, ie wreath crowns.

Is there something obvious to look for or is it all in the tone, and general finish?

???????????

Coinery has pointed out what seems to be a contradiction. In one post you ask how to tell a proof wreath crown apart from a normal strike. In another you point out that all your wreath proofs have provenance from leading experts, collectors and dealers, plus you have 25 years of your own research into the matter. This would lead me to conclude that you already know more than anyone here about wreath crown proofs, and could indeed - from what you say - be regarded as an expert in the field. So we're left with an obvious question - why did you come aboard asking how to tell proof wreaths apart from normal strikes?

As it seems to me that you must already know the answer, I for one - being ignorant of such differences - would appreciate a lesson in exactly what the differences are, and would also appreciate having the lesson illustrated by some comparative pictures, the proofs being drawn from your own collection of course. (Please understand, I'm being sincere, not sarcastic, in case you jump to the wrong conclusion).

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Sorry, reading my last post it reads harsher than it was meant to be. Even though this has been a passion of mine (and other crowns) i still ask the questions that i did. I still am willing to learn and pick up tips. One day someone may put me out of my misery and point out something so blindingly obvious it will shock me. If anyone visits the CGS website they will see my collection to verify that i am a genuine crown collector that just craves knowledge!

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Sorry, reading my last post it reads harsher than it was meant to be. Even though this has been a passion of mine (and other crowns) i still ask the questions that i did. I still am willing to learn and pick up tips. One day someone may put me out of my misery and point out something so blindingly obvious it will shock me. If anyone visits the CGS website they will see my collection to verify that i am a genuine crown collector that just craves knowledge!

The obvious answer would be to ask Steve Lockett if your coins are all entombed by his company.

I know that most of the Wreath "Proofs" sold by London have a Coincraft reference so there is another research area for you. A final suggestion would be the Royal Mint as they would surely have records of proof strikings?

As a dealer I rely on my experience of handling coins to differentiate proofs from currency strikes but quite often I am left scratching my head and opting for "proof like" which has already been pointed out by Peck as possibly just a very early strike or a coin from proof dies.

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Sorry, reading my last post it reads harsher than it was meant to be. Even though this has been a passion of mine (and other crowns) i still ask the questions that i did. I still am willing to learn and pick up tips. One day someone may put me out of my misery and point out something so blindingly obvious it will shock me. If anyone visits the CGS website they will see my collection to verify that i am a genuine crown collector that just craves knowledge!

Well, you're certainly amongst friends here if it's knowledge you're craving. There are plenty of extraordinarily generous people on here that are infinitely happy to part with their hard won findings to absolutely anyone and everyone.

Your crown collection sounds absolutely amazing, how far back does it go? :)

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Sorry, reading my last post it reads harsher than it was meant to be. Even though this has been a passion of mine (and other crowns) i still ask the questions that i did. I still am willing to learn and pick up tips. One day someone may put me out of my misery and point out something so blindingly obvious it will shock me. If anyone visits the CGS website they will see my collection to verify that i am a genuine crown collector that just craves knowledge!

Do you have a link to your particular crowns on their site? That would save me a bit of legwork, especially as I don't normally use the CGS website, being a "non-slabber". Actually, a link to the most prooflike of your crowns would do.

I just went there anyway, and you can't browse or search without being registered. :angry: What kind of cockamamie service is that? Most websites let you browse quite happily without registering first, only insisting on registration if you want to post comments or in their forums. I won't bother going back. I hate registering for a site and inventing yet another username and password, just to look. Pathetic. Rant over.

Edited by Peckris

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Sorry, reading my last post it reads harsher than it was meant to be. Even though this has been a passion of mine (and other crowns) i still ask the questions that i did. I still am willing to learn and pick up tips. One day someone may put me out of my misery and point out something so blindingly obvious it will shock me. If anyone visits the CGS website they will see my collection to verify that i am a genuine crown collector that just craves knowledge!

Do you have a link to your particular crowns on their site? That would save me a bit of legwork, especially as I don't normally use the CGS website, being a "non-slabber". Actually, a link to the most prooflike of your crowns would do.

I just went there anyway, and you can't browse or search without being registered. :angry: What kind of cockamamie service is that? Most websites let you browse quite happily without registering first, only insisting on registration if you want to post comments or in their forums. I won't bother going back. I hate registering for a site and inventing yet another username and password, just to look. Pathetic. Rant over.

Talking of rants, I'm forever banging on about the quality of TPGC's imagery, and CGS are as bad as the rest for that kind of thing (at least with the 20 or so coins I've had/got of their's) so I'm not that sure, with proof/proof-like qualities being the hardest thing to capture on pixels, that you'd get a great deal from seeing them, at least in the detail you'd be wanting to see them in to make a judgement?

I'll have a look for you, they let me past the gate :P

Divemaster, I don't suppose you've got any quality pre-slab pictures you could post?

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No sorry, dont have any pre-slab pictures,wouldnt be able to upload them anyway (so bad with technology).

Coinery - my collection goes back to earley 1800s as you will see on CGS, the only thing is that they dont show doubles (in the League Tables) only the highest grade you have.

Peckris - I use the same passwords to most sites, this one is real easy (even for me) to get into, and has some really usefull areas, ie. Valuation by grade, league tables, details on all coin variations, collection value, coin populations etc etc.

I am not only keen on wreaths but the same passion with all other crowns also.

Cheers

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Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

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Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

I have access to the CGS site, and own a few slabbed coins myself, but wasn't aware that I could view other people's coins without the UIN number. Is this possible? Alternatively you could post a few UINs to look at. I have a some crowns myself but mainly focus on pennies.

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Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

I have access to the CGS site, and own a few slabbed coins myself, but wasn't aware that I could view other people's coins without the UIN number. Is this possible? Alternatively you could post a few UINs to look at. I have a some crowns myself but mainly focus on pennies.

It depends whether the CGS user has submitted their collection to the league tables. If they have, you can view the league tables for each monarch and denomination and then view their coins.

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No sorry, dont have any pre-slab pictures,wouldnt be able to upload them anyway (so bad with technology).

Coinery - my collection goes back to earley 1800s as you will see on CGS, the only thing is that they dont show doubles (in the League Tables) only the highest grade you have.

Peckris - I use the same passwords to most sites, this one is real easy (even for me) to get into, and has some really usefull areas, ie. Valuation by grade, league tables, details on all coin variations, collection value, coin populations etc etc.

I am not only keen on wreaths but the same passion with all other crowns also.

Cheers

Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

I have access to the CGS site, and own a few slabbed coins myself, but wasn't aware that I could view other people's coins without the UIN number. Is this possible? Alternatively you could post a few UINs to look at. I have a some crowns myself but mainly focus on pennies.

Well, quite. My thoughts exactly. Even if I went through the hell of registering for CGS (it's not just creating a username and password DM, it's doing it for one single purpose only, and then remembering it if at some unspecified far future date I wanted to go back there. Technology might be your bête noir, but remembering more than around 10 favourite website registrations is mine), I very much doubt they are going to let me look at someone's personal collection. But if you're talking about individual coins that are publicly on show there, how would I know what to look for? What I mean is, having found wreath crowns, how would I know they are your coins, divemaster?

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No sorry, dont have any pre-slab pictures,wouldnt be able to upload them anyway (so bad with technology).

Coinery - my collection goes back to earley 1800s as you will see on CGS, the only thing is that they dont show doubles (in the League Tables) only the highest grade you have.

Peckris - I use the same passwords to most sites, this one is real easy (even for me) to get into, and has some really usefull areas, ie. Valuation by grade, league tables, details on all coin variations, collection value, coin populations etc etc.

I am not only keen on wreaths but the same passion with all other crowns also.

Cheers

Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

I have access to the CGS site, and own a few slabbed coins myself, but wasn't aware that I could view other people's coins without the UIN number. Is this possible? Alternatively you could post a few UINs to look at. I have a some crowns myself but mainly focus on pennies.

Well, quite. My thoughts exactly. Even if I went through the hell of registering for CGS (it's not just creating a username and password DM, it's doing it for one single purpose only, and then remembering it if at some unspecified far future date I wanted to go back there. Technology might be your bête noir, but remembering more than around 10 favourite website registrations is mine), I very much doubt they are going to let me look at someone's personal collection. But if you're talking about individual coins that are publicly on show there, how would I know what to look for? What I mean is, having found wreath crowns, how would I know they are your coins, divemaster?

The fact that the 'member name' is divemaster is a bit of a giveaway :)

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No sorry, dont have any pre-slab pictures,wouldnt be able to upload them anyway (so bad with technology).

Coinery - my collection goes back to earley 1800s as you will see on CGS, the only thing is that they dont show doubles (in the League Tables) only the highest grade you have.

Peckris - I use the same passwords to most sites, this one is real easy (even for me) to get into, and has some really usefull areas, ie. Valuation by grade, league tables, details on all coin variations, collection value, coin populations etc etc.

I am not only keen on wreaths but the same passion with all other crowns also.

Cheers

Changing the subject, had a few good buys in the last few weeks, finally found a 1935 error edge proof crown, finally found a 1888 wide date crown,1845 cinq, 1822 secundo and a few others. London coin auction was this weekend i was after a few but prices went silly so missed out on a 1822 tertio that was superb - dam it!

I have access to the CGS site, and own a few slabbed coins myself, but wasn't aware that I could view other people's coins without the UIN number. Is this possible? Alternatively you could post a few UINs to look at. I have a some crowns myself but mainly focus on pennies.

Well, quite. My thoughts exactly. Even if I went through the hell of registering for CGS (it's not just creating a username and password DM, it's doing it for one single purpose only, and then remembering it if at some unspecified far future date I wanted to go back there. Technology might be your bête noir, but remembering more than around 10 favourite website registrations is mine), I very much doubt they are going to let me look at someone's personal collection. But if you're talking about individual coins that are publicly on show there, how would I know what to look for? What I mean is, having found wreath crowns, how would I know they are your coins, divemaster?

The fact that the 'member name' is divemaster is a bit of a giveaway :)

Only if he uses the same username at CGS as he does here!!

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Speaking of Crowns. Found this first pictured one and was trying to compare of one from Londons, the first picture is more obvious of a 7 over 8 as there is no straight line in an 8 but was struggling with the Londons type which is the 2nd picture

1668Crown.jpg

1668London.jpg

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The fact that the 'member name' is divemaster is a bit of a giveaway :)

Only if he uses the same username at CGS as he does here!!

Which he does. I wouldn't have said so, if I didn't know it to be true.

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