1944 wide date

[numidan 0]

I have not seen this listed anywhere. The easiest way to determine the wide date is to determine where the back of second 4 is located compared to the denticle (see white arrowed line).

The blue line was used compare high of every digit and red rectangles used to compare digit locations. Happy hunting.

[Accumulator 52]

I have not seen this listed anywhere. The easiest way to determine the wide date is to determine where the back of second 4 is located compared to the denticle (see white arrowed line).

The blue line was used compare high of every digit and red rectangles used to compare digit locations. Happy hunting.

Welcome to the forum and thank you for taking the trouble to post clear photos.

The 1944 date variety is reasonably well known. Here are my examples (as displayed on my website - link below signature). The first shows Freeman 229 and the second is the unlisted variety:

[Coinery 926]

Yes, this one's in D Groom's book! He also adds that one has the wave ON the exergue line, and the other above, which I can see is the case in your images!

Groom, D., J., (2009) The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties. Whitstable: DJG

ISBN: 978-1-4092-8550-2

I think you're going to like it!

[azda 973]

Not sure it would command any premium though.

[Coinery 926]

Not sure it would command any premium though.

I guess that would depend on the comparative rarity of the one 1940 against the other! I think the modern micro-collector is a growing animal, and books like David's can only fuel the fire!

For example, if you HAD one, and I didn't...well, you could still keep it anyways!

[numidan 0]

Groom, D., J., (2009) The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties. Whitstable: DJG

ISBN: 978-1-4092-8550-2

Coinery, thank you for the information.

I am a Canadian and got a lot of UK pennies by error. Being a variety collector, I decided to put together an album of dates and popular varieties listed online and in GB book. This site seemed a good place to get information on my findings for the 40’s. Happy to see it is listed.

Is there a more recent list available online?

Not sure it would command any premium though.

Azda, it depends on how much interest collectors gives it. When it is easily identifiable, scarce but mot to the point that only a few exists, often the demand will surpass the offer. Only time will tell.

As an added note, if you do a comparative study between 1940 and 1944, my gut feeling tells me that the wide date variety was produced from a master die used for the 1940 where just the 4 was added to the 194 master die and the normal 1944 date, both 4s were added to the 19 master die. I do not know enough on UK coin production to be certain.

[Peter 615]

I think the trick is to get the variety in Spink.

CCGB is a great little book.If it went back to the first milled it would be a best seller.

Spink woke up about 5 years ago with pennies.I think they ought to try a little bit harder with varieties.

[Accumulator 52]

Not sure it would command any premium though.

I guess that would depend on the comparative rarity of the one 1940 against the other! I think the modern micro-collector is a growing animal, and books like David's can only fuel the fire!

For example, if you HAD one, and I didn't...well, you could still keep it anyways!

It would only command a premium from someone who knew what they had, and advertised it as such. I've found a few but it took a while to get one in the condition I've pictured above. It's not for sale unless I find a better example

[Peckris 579]

This is not an unrecorded variety (except in Peck and Freeman of course) - as mentioned, DaveG features it, and it makes possibly its first official appearance in David Sealy's varieties survey in the 1970 COINS & MEDALS ANNUAL. Here it's described thus:

A. Curl of r.h. wave (below foot) merges with upper of two exergual lines, which are close together. As B for 1940.

B. All waves clear of exergual lines, which are further apart. Second 4 points to exact centre of wave curl above it, instead of slightly to left.

Where one variety is notably scarcer than another, Sealy notes it, but he hasn't in this case leading one to assume they are broadly similar mintages.

Don't forget also, that there is a scarce lustred issue for 1944, but you would need a high grade example for that.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Peckris

[azda 973]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

[Accumulator 52]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

It's all about being a completist. As soon as a variety is found, everyone has a gap in their collection to be filled. As Peck says, they're not that rare (VR Court estimates 6:1 in favour of the more common variety) so can be picked up by the eagle-eyed at a very reasonable price. There's always a good feeling from paying standard money for a rarer variety.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Accumulator

[Coinery 926]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

It's all about being a completist. As soon as a variety is found, everyone has a gap in their collection to be filled. As Peck says, they're not that rare (VR Court estimates 6:1 in favour of the more common variety) so can be picked up by the eagle-eyed at a very reasonable price. There's always a good feeling from paying standard money for a rarer variety.

I guess a lot of the overdates and die-repairs of modern milled can boil down to little more than a few microns on occasions, even blocked dies count, if the run's long enough! It always comes down to how common or not they are, and how many accumulators there are out there with big black circles in the middle of their very fine cabinets who want one!

Edited August 14, 2012 by Coinery

[azda 973]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

It's all about being a completist. As soon as a variety is found, everyone has a gap in their collection to be filled. As Peck says, they're not that rare (VR Court estimates 6:1 in favour of the more common variety) so can be picked up by the eagle-eyed at a very reasonable price. There's always a good feeling from paying standard money for a rarer variety.

In that case i have an 1863 open 3 variety for sale 5-7 known

[davidrj 194]

In that case i have an 1863 open 3 variety for sale 5-7 known

I paid a fiver for mine!

Probably the worst example known.

[azda 973]

I doubt it, mine was rather more expensive and clear date only

[azda 973]

Not sure it would command any premium though.

I guess that would depend on the comparative rarity of the one 1940 against the other! I think the modern micro-collector is a growing animal, and books like David's can only fuel the fire!

For example, if you HAD one, and I didn't...well, you could still keep it anyways!

It would only command a premium from someone who knew what they had, and advertised it as such. I've found a few but it took a while to get one in the condition I've pictured above. It's not for sale unless I find a better example

1863 open 3 Penny (described as such) offered on ebay, will it command a premium being that there is 5-7 known? Against a 1944 penny with a nats hair width in date from another 1944 regular penny, bets anyone?

[davidrj 194]

1863 open 3 Penny (described as such) offered on ebay, will it command a premium being that there is 5-7 known?

Suspect it won't go for much as it's not in Freeman, Gouby's book probably has not had a high enough circulation for the variety to be well known

Against a 1944 penny with a nats hair width in date from another 1944 regular penny, bets anyone?

20th century penny varieties don't ever seem to get listed as such on Ebay (except 1902 LT and 1926 ME) , how often are die varieties of 1905, 1908, 1913, 1915, 1916, 1921, 1937 listed let alone 1940 or 1944?

1903 - open 3, and 1911 Gouby X are both relatively unknown, so you just need to look carefully at sellers' photos, I'm still keeping a watch on 1908, 1909, 1913, & 1922!

anyone got a 1967 "tidal wave" ?

David

Edited August 15, 2012 by davidrj

[scott 129]

I wish people would stop knowing they had those 1903 opens.. i want one cheap >.>

i look at 1908 and 1909 as well.

but really, we have the 1870 wide and narrow which is what? 1 tooth? and we got the the OH viccies that dont count, the few differant 1902's (isn't there 2 versions of LT )

[Gary D 76]

I wish people would stop knowing they had those 1903 opens.. i want one cheap >.>

i look at 1908 and 1909 as well.

but really, we have the 1870 wide and narrow which is what? 1 tooth? and we got the the OH viccies that dont count, the few differant 1902's (isn't there 2 versions of LT )

I think it's nearer a dozen

[Peckris 579]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

I'd go along with that. Anything you have to look that close at, and is not rare, doesn't float my boat in any way whatever. But then, I stopped being a completist some years back (though I would like a 1903 open 3).

20th century penny varieties don't ever seem to get listed as such on Ebay (except 1902 LT and 1926 ME) , how often are die varieties of 1905, 1908, 1913, 1915, 1916, 1921, 1937 listed let alone 1940 or 1944?

1903 - open 3, and 1911 Gouby X are both relatively unknown, so you just need to look carefully at sellers' photos, I'm still keeping a watch on 1908, 1909, 1913, & 1922!

anyone got a 1967 "tidal wave" ?

The 1913 varieties are worth having (the two mules, anyway) but it needs some experience and expertise to spot them. The 1905, 1921, and 1937 variants are equally common and equally minor so are probably ignored. The 1940 is a recognised variety though you have to look quite close, and so is the 1946 die flaw. The 1908 and 1909 rare varieties are probably too rare for eBay, while the 1915/16 recessed ear varieties are obvious when you know about them, but probably not to the casual observer.

It's 1966 for the 'tidal wave', and yes I've got one, but I probably wouldn't have bothered except I was at a fair and one just happened to be there! 1965 or 1967 Britannia helmet 'stalk', anyone?

I wish people would stop knowing they had those 1903 opens.. i want one cheap >.>

i look at 1908 and 1909 as well.

but really, we have the 1870 wide and narrow which is what? 1 tooth? and we got the the OH viccies that dont count, the few differant 1902's (isn't there 2 versions of LT )

Me too

I wish people would stop knowing they had those 1903 opens.. i want one cheap >.>

i look at 1908 and 1909 as well.

but really, we have the 1870 wide and narrow which is what? 1 tooth? and we got the the OH viccies that dont count, the few differant 1902's (isn't there 2 versions of LT )

I think it's nearer a dozen

And don't forget the 4 sub-varieties of 1957 'calm sea' halfpenny!!

[Accumulator 52]

I'm not sure what sort of of Premiums People might think it would gain with a few microns wider in width, but for me its not worthy of anything other than a 1944 prices penny.

I would'nt lose sleep at night if i did'nt have one in my collection, sorry, but each to their own i suppose. A missing colon maybe, but not a few microns in a date width on a 1944 penny.

I'd go along with that. Anything you have to look that close at, and is not rare, doesn't float my boat in any way whatever. But then, I stopped being a completist some years back (though I would like a 1903 open 3).

The well-known 'big' varieties, especially those listed by Freeman, tend to go for big prices so it's nice that the micro-varieties can still be found lurking on eBay, or with dealers, at rock bottom prices. The eagle-eyed can pick up the rarer 1944 for about £25 in UNC on eBay, for instance. Whatever floats your boat, of course, but it does allow the collector with a lower budget to get in on the action, which is great.

Peckris - Ages ago I said I'd send you my 'open 3' as soon as I find a decent upgrade (VF or better - if anyone knows of one?). I haven't forgotten!

20th century penny varieties don't ever seem to get listed as such on Ebay (except 1902 LT and 1926 ME) , how often are die varieties of 1905, 1908, 1913, 1915, 1916, 1921, 1937 listed let alone 1940 or 1944?

1903 - open 3, and 1911 Gouby X are both relatively unknown, so you just need to look carefully at sellers' photos, I'm still keeping a watch on 1908, 1909, 1913, & 1922!

anyone got a 1967 "tidal wave" ?

The 1913 varieties are worth having (the two mules, anyway) but it needs some experience and expertise to spot them. The 1905, 1921, and 1937 variants are equally common and equally minor so are probably ignored. The 1940 is a recognised variety though you have to look quite close, and so is the 1946 die flaw. The 1908 and 1909 rare varieties are probably too rare for eBay, while the 1915/16 recessed ear varieties are obvious when you know about them, but probably not to the casual observer.

It's 1966 for the 'tidal wave', and yes I've got one, but I probably wouldn't have bothered except I was at a fair and one just happened to be there! 1965 or 1967 Britannia helmet 'stalk', anyone?

Do you have a photo of the 1966 tidal wave? I still need to look through the hundreds of 66's that I must have. A job for a long winter's evening methinks!

Having already admitted to being something of a completist, I'm collecting all the Freeman varieties plus more and more of the Gouby varieties too. I still have a few gaps but, like many others, keep scanning the never ending lists of eBay coins just in case! Often there's more satisfaction from a 'find' than there is from paying top dollar for an admittedly beautiful coin at auction. The 1909 and Gouby X still elude me though.

[Peckris 579]

The well-known 'big' varieties, especially those listed by Freeman, tend to go for big prices so it's nice that the micro-varieties can still be found lurking on eBay, or with dealers, at rock bottom prices. The eagle-eyed can pick up the rarer 1944 for about £25 in UNC on eBay, for instance. Whatever floats your boat, of course, but it does allow the collector with a lower budget to get in on the action, which is great.

Peckris - Ages ago I said I'd send you my 'open 3' as soon as I find a decent upgrade (VF or better - if anyone knows of one?). I haven't forgotten!

The finest known isn't much better than Fine! But I wish you joy on your search especially now you've reminded me there's a selfish motive to your finding an upgrade.. (I bow to you).

Do you have a photo of the 1966 tidal wave? I still need to look through the hundreds of 66's that I must have. A job for a long winter's evening methinks!

Having already admitted to being something of a completist, I'm collecting all the Freeman varieties plus more and more of the Gouby varieties too. I still have a few gaps but, like many others, keep scanning the never ending lists of eBay coins just in case! Often there's more satisfaction from a 'find' than there is from paying top dollar for an admittedly beautiful coin at auction. The 1909 and Gouby X still elude me though.

I will try to get a photo of the '66 tidal wave, but it's such a slender sliver (could easily be mistaken for a fragment of hair on the coin) it may be a challenge getting the light just right. Maybe a scan would work better though I think I already tried that without success?

I'd love to help you out with a spare Gouby X but my own copy is the only one I've ever seen.

[Accumulator 52]

I will try to get a photo of the '66 tidal wave, but it's such a slender sliver (could easily be mistaken for a fragment of hair on the coin) it may be a challenge getting the light just right. Maybe a scan would work better though I think I already tried that without success?

I'd love to help you out with a spare Gouby X but my own copy is the only one I've ever seen.

I vaguely recall a previous discussion on your 1966, so just did a search and found a line drawing with the wave marked in red. I suggested going through my 1966's at that time, but never did!

Michael Coins listed a Gouby X for several months but I note he has now sold it. I had a look at the coin but just couldn't live with the grade. I'll probably live to regret that decision if I can't find another! VR Court found 37 out of 4,542 checked by him, so far from common.

[Peckris 579]

I will try to get a photo of the '66 tidal wave, but it's such a slender sliver (could easily be mistaken for a fragment of hair on the coin) it may be a challenge getting the light just right. Maybe a scan would work better though I think I already tried that without success?

I'd love to help you out with a spare Gouby X but my own copy is the only one I've ever seen.

I vaguely recall a previous discussion on your 1966, so just did a search and found a line drawing with the wave marked in red. I suggested going through my 1966's at that time, but never did!

Michael Coins listed a Gouby X for several months but I note he has now sold it. I had a look at the coin but just couldn't live with the grade. I'll probably live to regret that decision if I can't find another! VR Court found 37 out of 4,542 checked by him, so far from common.

Mine probably isn't even quite Fine. They're not common at all, and I don't know what the "best known" is. Just out of interest, what was Gouby asking for his Gouby?

[Accumulator 52]

I will try to get a photo of the '66 tidal wave, but it's such a slender sliver (could easily be mistaken for a fragment of hair on the coin) it may be a challenge getting the light just right. Maybe a scan would work better though I think I already tried that without success?

I'd love to help you out with a spare Gouby X but my own copy is the only one I've ever seen.

I vaguely recall a previous discussion on your 1966, so just did a search and found a line drawing with the wave marked in red. I suggested going through my 1966's at that time, but never did!

Michael Coins listed a Gouby X for several months but I note he has now sold it. I had a look at the coin but just couldn't live with the grade. I'll probably live to regret that decision if I can't find another! VR Court found 37 out of 4,542 checked by him, so far from common.

Mine probably isn't even quite Fine. They're not common at all, and I don't know what the "best known" is. Just out of interest, what was Gouby asking for his Gouby?

£80-90 I believe. His was more like Fair.