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I can't off the top of my head think of a single coin that couldn't potentially be bought with a history! It will make them even more of a rarity, but great, makes for an exciting new challenge, I'd certainly be looking at it if I was buying certain types for a long-standing collection, the Godless now being one of them!

I think that's fine if you have deep pockets. There's one occasionally posting member here who buys nothing but the very best examples of everything and of course, as such, they all have amazing provenances. But for the average collector on a budget, if you have the choice between a handful of provenanced coins or five or ten times as many, albeit in most cases slightly lesser coins, it's going to be difficult to resist buying the cheaper coins without the history.

The additional problems as I see them are that there are many uninspiring coins that have nevertheless been part of a major collection. Is it better to buy a coin lacking eye appeal for the provenance over one without history but clearly nicer? Plus, although nowadays most coins tend to be illustrated in catalogues, more than 20 years ago, that wasn't the case. It's my experience that grading companies (and even some dealers) have not been good at retaining old tickets with coins. Without either a photograph or some other support, such as a ticket, it's very difficult to be certain about an individual coin's history. The vast majority of coins now on the market probably have little or no evidence of where they were before their last sale. Buying only coins with history will compound the challenge of finding an example for most collectors.

What the answer might be, I'm not sure. I quite agree that the best answer is to only buy coins that can be trusted, which is those that have a history prior to any known fakes, from reputable sources. But modern (post 1800s or so) machine made coins are by their very nature much more alike than the earlier, cruder, efforts. Making distinguishing between one made in 1869 and 2009 very difficult.

And of course, it's not just milled. Most of us here know of the run of replica coins that were on ebay a little while back. I myself nearly bought two of them, one believing it was the coin from Rob's website until it dawned on me that I'd seen that particular coin too many times for it to be true. Fakes are a real pain. :angry:

I'm not suggesting for a second that everyone should go out and buy only provenanced coins. I do however think, for example, that if you wanted to collect Victorian silver, you could do far worse than to 'cover' yourself with a bit of provenance on a Gothic Florin, given the recent discussions.

I've got an example that I'm totally happy is genuine, but I would now consider it a valid upgrade to have one sat on provenance, if only to get the best value out of it in the future, when either I or my family come to rehome it.

So, I guess I'd look at it as an upgrade, and probably a financially astute move should the trust fall out of the G.Florin market, as it could very well do! :(

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I don't profess to be an expert on coins, but I sat in a saleroom last week and pulled a 1933 crown and an 1893 £5 that were both fakes. I even managed to ID the £5 purely from the auction house website pictures. Dave is sort of right, handle coins as regularly as you can and in as many states of preservation as you can. Peck mentioned weights earlier in this post and that is one of the very best methods of determining fakes.

Another top tip (that nobody other than a zombie should need) DO NOT BUY ANYTHING FROM CHINA, CHINESE SOUNDING SELLERS, CHINESE SELLERS REGISTERED IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD or any ebay seller that you cannot get a decent feel for via feedback.

The China thing isn't rocket science, high grade, cheap and relatively common (Gothic Crowns included) = BLOODY FAKE

I have said it over and over again, lack of knowledge and greed (the thought of getting a £200 coin for £20) will lead to financial ruin for many.

There was no response at all from the ebayer (squirry I think) when I pointed out that the high grade coins he had bought on ebay from China were all fakes. Draw any conclusion you like from that but the obvious ones are 1) he did not want to admit a mistake or 2) he is going to pass them on to some sap on ebay UK at a huge profit.....

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"2) he is going to pass them on to some sap on ebay UK at a huge profit....."

A distinct possibility, so protecting yourself from China will not be easy, and I think they will get the weights right eventually, and then...

If we take the Northumberland XII, for example, a really high-profile fake, i wonder how many of those are now sat in expensive collections around the world! I would think there are very few people today who would comfortable hand over the big money without either some big-guns pawing over it or, perhaps, dare I say, a credible paper trail to go with it!

I guess it's to each his own, but I'd say it's near-damned impossible to be an expert in all areas and, as I say, my florin's genuine enough but, if I was taking the big Victorian silver thing seriously, I would definitely look to upgrade it to a provenanced coin, and would likely do the same thing for any of the high-class fakes that broached my collection area (if I had one!)!

On a slightly different, but related point, the florin discussed at the start of the thread was 0.5g underweight. It would be a very interesting thing to see the range of weights for theses fakes, as I guess they fluctuate (presumeably if they had the technology to achieve a consistent 10.8, they could achieve a consistent weight more in keeping with the genuine article), so are there random heavier coins too? Half a gram extra, spread over the disc-area of a florin, would barely make a decimal change on even the best micrometers!

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We may be getting towards the situation where Chinese fakes become so technically perfect that it will be near impossible to tell them from the real thing, especially if the dies are 'corrected'. In which case we would need some way of dating the production of coins, for example some future equivalent of Carbon-14 dating.

In numismatics, unlike record collecting or books, 'first issues' are of no importance in themselves, only that 'first strikes' can be of higher quality; if a second strike was of higher quality then they would attract the premium instead. What we may have to come to accept some day is that 'originals' are regarded as 'first issues' and command a price X times higher than a 'second issue' (a later fake).

Thank goodness we haven't reached that stage yet, but I fear it may happen. After all, the number of potential collectors per original coin will grow and grow. Technically perfect fakes could be regarded in the same way as - for example - those Gothic Crown repros of a few years ago, and which went for around one tenth of the price of an original. And if that day comes, China may become the world leader in 'reproduction' coins and sell them openly for a profitable fraction of an original.

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We may be getting towards the situation where Chinese fakes become so technically perfect that it will be near impossible to tell them from the real thing, especially if the dies are 'corrected'. In which case we would need some way of dating the production of coins, for example some future equivalent of Carbon-14 dating.

In numismatics, unlike record collecting or books, 'first issues' are of no importance in themselves, only that 'first strikes' can be of higher quality; if a second strike was of higher quality then they would attract the premium instead. What we may have to come to accept some day is that 'originals' are regarded as 'first issues' and command a price X times higher than a 'second issue' (a later fake).

Thank goodness we haven't reached that stage yet, but I fear it may happen. After all, the number of potential collectors per original coin will grow and grow. Technically perfect fakes could be regarded in the same way as - for example - those Gothic Crown repros of a few years ago, and which went for around one tenth of the price of an original. And if that day comes, China may become the world leader in 'reproduction' coins and sell them openly for a profitable fraction of an original.

Deja voo, Peck! ;)

I can hardly believe people actually knowingly paid for a repro crowns just so they could have one, I'd rather not bother!

I think if the fake industry one day becomes a legitimate reproduction industry, then it will be supplying a totally different market to those that are the true collectors of historic coins! It would be akin to going to a superstore to buy a repro Tudor four-poster, in the hope you'd get anything like the experience of sleeping by candle-light in the genuine thing (you can spend 3X as much and get the genuine article, worth it I'd say!).

Give the Chinese a spot-on planchet of .925 silver at a competitive price, then it's game over!

I think we all have our own strategies to minimise the impact of the Chinese on our own areas of interest, and to each their own! ;):)

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We may be getting towards the situation where Chinese fakes become so technically perfect that it will be near impossible to tell them from the real thing, especially if the dies are 'corrected'. In which case we would need some way of dating the production of coins, for example some future equivalent of Carbon-14 dating.

In numismatics, unlike record collecting or books, 'first issues' are of no importance in themselves, only that 'first strikes' can be of higher quality; if a second strike was of higher quality then they would attract the premium instead. What we may have to come to accept some day is that 'originals' are regarded as 'first issues' and command a price X times higher than a 'second issue' (a later fake).

Thank goodness we haven't reached that stage yet, but I fear it may happen. After all, the number of potential collectors per original coin will grow and grow. Technically perfect fakes could be regarded in the same way as - for example - those Gothic Crown repros of a few years ago, and which went for around one tenth of the price of an original. And if that day comes, China may become the world leader in 'reproduction' coins and sell them openly for a profitable fraction of an original.

Deja voo, Peck! ;)

I can hardly believe people actually knowingly paid for a repro crowns just so they could have one, I'd rather not bother!

I think if the fake industry one day becomes a legitimate reproduction industry, then it will be supplying a totally different market to those that are the true collectors of historic coins! It would be akin to going to a superstore to buy a repro Tudor four-poster, in the hope you'd get anything like the experience of sleeping by candle-light in the genuine thing (you can spend 3X as much and get the genuine article, worth it I'd say!).

Give the Chinese a spot-on planchet of .925 silver at a competitive price, then it's game over!

I think we all have our own strategies to minimise the impact of the Chinese on our own areas of interest, and to each their own! ;):)

I tend to agree, but there are a few exceptions : those repro Gothic crowns were staggeringly beautiful, and I've had happily paid out for one. And also for a faked 1933 penny. The crowns were never issued for currency anyway, and no-one will be in a position to buy a genuine 1933 thisside of a blue moon. So I have my weak points. I even paid a tenner for one of those fantasy proof pattern 1798 halfpennies. It was a satisfyingly chunky and handsome piece, and while some would probably turn their noses up at it, I've never regretted buying it.

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

Be grateful, you might suffer undue stress trying to decipher the reply.

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

Will get the laptop out in the morning to access my pictures, I'm pretty sure the H8 groat's a duffer too, but will have to check! Mine was a pretty good copy, about the right thickness and also had a rose privy mark, just can't remember if it was muled or not?

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Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react

dream on........

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Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react

dream on........

You never know, though, he hasn't got over 5000 good feedback like the Elizabeth pewter 3D seller, who eBay did NOT deal with, despite at least two separate reports!

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Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react

dream on........

You never know, though, he hasn't got over 5000 good feedback like the Elizabeth pewter 3D seller, who eBay did NOT deal with, despite at least two separate reports!

Well - obvious ebay won't react to a single report or two since they don't have the knowledge to judge what's true or not. However there's a possibility that they will react to a large number of reports. It would be interesting to see if anything happens if fx ten of us makes a report.

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Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react

dream on........

I agree ski, eBay do f all when fakes are reported, maybe because they know f all about coins

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He's also had a neg for selling a fake watch

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

Will get the laptop out in the morning to access my pictures, I'm pretty sure the H8 groat's a duffer too, but will have to check! Mine was a pretty good copy, about the right thickness and also had a rose privy mark, just can't remember if it was muled or not?

Exact match, the groat's a duffer too!

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

Will get the laptop out in the morning to access my pictures, I'm pretty sure the H8 groat's a duffer too, but will have to check! Mine was a pretty good copy, about the right thickness and also had a rose privy mark, just can't remember if it was muled or not?

Exact match, the groat's a duffer too!

All gone :D

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Another fake on ebay

He also has a fake 1818 halfcrown and a few other doubtful products. He doesn't reply to questions. Perhaps if many of us report him ebay will react :rolleyes:

Will get the laptop out in the morning to access my pictures, I'm pretty sure the H8 groat's a duffer too, but will have to check! Mine was a pretty good copy, about the right thickness and also had a rose privy mark, just can't remember if it was muled or not?

Exact match, the groat's a duffer too!

All gone :D

Dah, dah! ;)

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This is my latest 1849 florin. She looks OK and is bang on weight and dimensions.

20200721_102946.jpg

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I love a great Victorian  florin as you may guess, but with all due respect that one looks a bit off. The surfaces, especially in the fields not quite right, nor are the decorations at the neck and shoulder margins of the gown. Hair detail also not quite correct IMO. The usual caveats apply, and we sorry viewers do not have the coin in hand. I. am quite suspect despite the weight. I would have it checked in hand by a local expert.

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I sg

18 hours ago, Coin#addict said:

This is my latest 1849 florin. She looks OK and is bang on weight and dimensions.

20200721_102946.jpg

I just don't like the look of this coin, not quite right and looks too clean imo.

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Posted (edited)

I don't like it either .  The gown detail just looks mushy and indistinct .Possibly cleaned with something that hasn't done it any favours .

 

Edited by mick1271
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On 7/21/2020 at 10:26 PM, Coin#addict said:

This is my latest 1849 florin. She looks OK and is bang on weight and dimensions.

20200721_102946.jpg

 Here's my 1849 florin for comparison

Obverse GEF.jpg

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On 7/21/2020 at 1:26 PM, Coin#addict said:

This is my latest 1849 florin. She looks OK and is bang on weight and dimensions.

20200721_102946.jpg

This might sound odd, but that sort of surface, cheek and forehead, I normally see on cast metal...how very strange....

It's almost like someone 'cleaned' it with a very fine sandblaster....

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I think coin is not right as well - it does not look at all genuine - I really would not like to own that

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At this point, i'd grab a magnet to slide down it, but I suppose forgers used old coin silver to pass that test...

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