1694 Farthing - Unbarred A's in Maria

[Coinery 926]

Continuing from the beginnings of a discussion about apparent rarity, here is an unbarred A's in Maria 1694 farthing, on the usual poor cast flan, added to which is a more than acceptable level of reverse corrosion.

The question is: Spink catalogues this unbarred 'A' coin at nearly 3 times the value of the regular barred 'A' issue in Fine. All these unbarred A 'rarities,' William III copper included, seem to be turning up with regularity on the Bay, are they overpriced, are they as rare as thought?

[Peter 615]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

[Peter 615]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

[Coinery 926]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Thanks, Peter! Any ideas where I'd get a list 51? Do similar studies exist for the William III copper?

[Coinery 926]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

Yes, come along Colin, I can't continue poking around in the dark forever!

[azda 973]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Thanks, Peter! Any ideas where I'd get a list 51? Do similar studies exist for the William III copper?

Try the Colin Cooke website

[Peter 615]

Colin Cooke was doing various write ups for different dates.I have a large proportion of his catalogues which are all well thumbed.

Give me a PM and I will try and help.I won't put a link onto the net.

CC was producing a farthing encyclopedia until his untimely demise

I would dismiss Spink.

[Colin G. 147]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

the rate I am going, you may have another 20 years of darkness before I get around to that period in time I have my hands full as it is, come on Peter take up the challenge

[Colin G. 147]

I would dismiss Spink.

I agree!!

[Rob 3,002]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

Why wait? Sorted

1672

1673

1674

1675

1676

1677

1678

1679

1680

1681

1682

1683

1684

1685

1686

1687

1688

1689

1690

1691

1692

1693

1694

1695

1696

1697

1698

1699

1700

1701

1702

1703

1704

1705

1706

1707

1708

1709

1710

1711

1712

1713

1714

1715

1716

1717

1718

1719

1720

1721

1722

1723

1724

[Peter 615]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

[Peter 615]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

Why wait? Sorted

1672

1673

1674

1675

1676

1677

1678

1679

1680

1681

1682

1683

1684

1685

1686

1687

1688

1689

1690

1691

1692

1693

1694

1695

1696

1697

1698

1699

1700

1701

1702

1703

1704

1705

1706

1707

1708

1709

1710

1711

1712

1713

1714

1715

1716

1717

1718

1719

1720

1721

1722

1723

1724

Please forward by return the 1676,1693 & 1718....there is a crisp £10 waiting for you.

Hurry up with your book too

[Coinery 926]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

[Coinery 926]

No one seems to have a handle on this series.I bet if you collected 100 coins the majority will differ from worn dies to missing stops double exergue lines and clogging.

As mentioned before Colin Cooke did a detailed research on 1694.List 51.

There is no easy answer.Buy a copy of list 51.

Colin Goode (Aboutfarthings) has promised a definitive list of 1672-1724

Why wait? Sorted

1672

1673

1674

1675

1676

1677

1678

1679

1680

1681

1682

1683

1684

1685

1686

1687

1688

1689

1690

1691

1692

1693

1694

1695

1696

1697

1698

1699

1700

1701

1702

1703

1704

1705

1706

1707

1708

1709

1710

1711

1712

1713

1714

1715

1716

1717

1718

1719

1720

1721

1722

1723

1724

[Rob 3,002]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Generally speaking the prices will reflect past sales, but if there isn't a major sale for a while you can get a mismatch between history and reality. Some prices have plummeted in Spink following the realisation that things aren't as rare as previously assumed. If there is no major farthing sale in a London auction, then prices are either going to drift upwards in a percentage increase across the board, or not get revised at all. If there were a couple sales realising below Spink book, the price would probably be revised down, assuming they reviewed it at all. People that know a specific field won't bother with prices anyway. Rarities are instantly recognised for what they are and appropriate bids made.

[Peter 615]

Rob

Too much time spent on that Unite

I would also like

1677,78,82,83,88,1701-1712,1715,16.

I have another crisp tenner for each one.

[Coinery 926]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Generally speaking the prices will reflect past sales, but if there isn't a major sale for a while you can get a mismatch between history and reality. Some prices have plummeted in Spink following the realisation that things aren't as rare as previously assumed. If there is no major farthing sale in a London auction, then prices are either going to drift upwards in a percentage increase across the board, or not get revised at all. If there were a couple sales realising below Spink book, the price would probably be revised down, assuming they reviewed it at all. People that know a specific field won't bother with prices anyway. Rarities are instantly recognised for what they are and appropriate bids made.

Thanks, Rob! I always assumed they collated figures from a broad auction circuit, rather than just from the specialised sales!

The triple quoted figures for unbarred A's in Fine did surprise me, especially when, for other types and varieties, and I use Elizabeth as an example, there appear to be no significant price differences, even for quite obvious variations (busts being an easy one)! It seems to make little difference with an Elizabeth Sixpence whether Liz has a ribbon in her hair, a bowler hat instead of a crown, or even smoking a pipe etc., etc!

I just find it odd to see the 17/18C farthings so specifically valued!

[Rob 3,002]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Generally speaking the prices will reflect past sales, but if there isn't a major sale for a while you can get a mismatch between history and reality. Some prices have plummeted in Spink following the realisation that things aren't as rare as previously assumed. If there is no major farthing sale in a London auction, then prices are either going to drift upwards in a percentage increase across the board, or not get revised at all. If there were a couple sales realising below Spink book, the price would probably be revised down, assuming they reviewed it at all. People that know a specific field won't bother with prices anyway. Rarities are instantly recognised for what they are and appropriate bids made.

Thanks, Rob! I always assumed they collated figures from a broad auction circuit, rather than just from the specialised sales!

The triple quoted figures for unbarred A's in Fine did surprise me, especially when, for other types and varieties, and I use Elizabeth as an example, there appear to be no significant price differences, even for quite obvious variations (busts being an easy one)! It seems to make little difference with an Elizabeth Sixpence whether Liz has a ribbon in her hair, a bowler hat instead of a crown, or even smoking a pipe etc., etc!

I just find it odd to see the 17/18C farthings so specifically valued!

Not everything is revalued every year. The September sales are a good indicator of what is going to be revised as the next year's edition is only a couple months away from release. Last September was the Brady groats, so groats as a whole were revalued. For the last few years the prices had crept up annually by £25 or £50 in VF, however, a sale with such a comprehensive selection of a single denomination enabled a wholesale revision of prices with the ability to vary them relative to each other as it became obvious what was in demand amongst specific groups. When coins sell for below estimate, either there is something wrong, or it is common and not worth chasing. If one coin goes ballistic, either two people refused to give up, but also it is likely to mean that the coin in question was an unusually good example or rare variety.

What you also have to bear in mind is that when a number of varieties are grouped under a single heading, the price is for the commonest variety. Hidden within a nominal price of £50 might be a £1K variety, but unless it is widely collected would not necessarily warrant its own reference.

[Rob 3,002]

Rob

Too much time spent on that Unite

I would also like

1677,78,82,83,88,1701-1712,1715,16.

I have another crisp tenner for each one.

Take Mrs. Peter's advice and buy yourself one. Most varieties are reasonably affordable in gVF or EF.

[Colin G. 147]

I agree with Peter, Spink is way behind on farthing varieties (and I am not including the smaller "micro" varieties). I am talking about known published varieties and undisputable die combinations included in Peck and Freeman, for example 1881 4 berries, 1880 3 and 4 berries, which are not even included.

There are numerous discrepancies in the pricing of the series, that should have corrected themselves if based on recent auction data, but they still lag behind. However these are the areas where knowledge in a field gives an individual a clear advantage, it is what results in coins being underpriced and overpriced by dealers (who realistically could not be experts in each individual time period/denomination. I would argue that it is impossible for any price guide to be accurate, and that they should only be used as a safety net of sorts for areas where expertise is limited.

Don't get me wrong, I use price guides for areas outside of my field of collecting as an indicative guide of varieties and rarities, but I would always double check that data where time allows against actual sale figures from several sources.

As Rob says I can not really remember the last time I looked at a price guide for farthings, I tend to rely on knowledge of prices I see, and now know instinctively what I would snap up if offered at book price!!

Also bear in mind all of the above is caveated by the fact that I am still using the 2009 Spink they might have put it right by now

[Coinery 926]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Generally speaking the prices will reflect past sales, but if there isn't a major sale for a while you can get a mismatch between history and reality. Some prices have plummeted in Spink following the realisation that things aren't as rare as previously assumed. If there is no major farthing sale in a London auction, then prices are either going to drift upwards in a percentage increase across the board, or not get revised at all. If there were a couple sales realising below Spink book, the price would probably be revised down, assuming they reviewed it at all. People that know a specific field won't bother with prices anyway. Rarities are instantly recognised for what they are and appropriate bids made.

Thanks, Rob! I always assumed they collated figures from a broad auction circuit, rather than just from the specialised sales!

The triple quoted figures for unbarred A's in Fine did surprise me, especially when, for other types and varieties, and I use Elizabeth as an example, there appear to be no significant price differences, even for quite obvious variations (busts being an easy one)! It seems to make little difference with an Elizabeth Sixpence whether Liz has a ribbon in her hair, a bowler hat instead of a crown, or even smoking a pipe etc., etc!

I just find it odd to see the 17/18C farthings so specifically valued!

Not everything is revalued every year. The September sales are a good indicator of what is going to be revised as the next year's edition is only a couple months away from release. Last September was the Brady groats, so groats as a whole were revalued. For the last few years the prices had crept up annually by £25 or £50 in VF, however, a sale with such a comprehensive selection of a single denomination enabled a wholesale revision of prices with the ability to vary them relative to each other as it became obvious what was in demand amongst specific groups. When coins sell for below estimate, either there is something wrong, or it is common and not worth chasing. If one coin goes ballistic, either two people refused to give up, but also it is likely to mean that the coin in question was an unusually good example or rare variety.

What you also have to bear in mind is that when a number of varieties are grouped under a single heading, the price is for the commonest variety. Hidden within a nominal price of £50 might be a £1K variety, but unless it is widely collected would not necessarily warrant its own reference.

I'm really glad I pursued this thread! Reminds me of moments in education, where a particularly patient and/or persistent teacher would present something a slightly alternative way, and suddenly the penny would drop!

[Coinery 926]

I agree with Peter, Spink is way behind on farthing varieties (and I am not including the smaller "micro" varieties). I am talking about known published varieties and undisputable die combinations included in Peck and Freeman, for example 1881 4 berries, 1880 3 and 4 berries, which are not even included.

There are numerous discrepancies in the pricing of the series, that should have corrected themselves if based on recent auction data, but they still lag behind. However these are the areas where knowledge in a field gives an individual a clear advantage, it is what results in coins being underpriced and overpriced by dealers (who realistically could not be experts in each individual time period/denomination. I would argue that it is impossible for any price guide to be accurate, and that they should only be used as a safety net of sorts for areas where expertise is limited.

Don't get me wrong, I use price guides for areas outside of my field of collecting as an indicative guide of varieties and rarities, but I would always double check that data where time allows against actual sale figures from several sources.

As Rob says I can not really remember the last time I looked at a price guide for farthings, I tend to rely on knowledge of prices I see, and now know instinctively what I would snap up if offered at book price!!

Also bear in mind all of the above is caveated by the fact that I am still using the 2009 Spink they might have put it right by now

Thanks, Colin, that very much clears the issue up for me!

[Peckris 579]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Ouija board, I'd heard?

[Rob 3,002]

It took Spink an age to get up to date on 1d's (25 years post Freeman at least)Spink is a general catalogue which in itself is fine.But you don't buy a Mondeo manual to service your Porsche.Get a Peck Freeman and Gouby if you are a copperman.Plus Dave's latest book on 20C copper.

Rotographics book is also good and takes you into far more detail than Spink.

Now use Aboutfarthings and Colin Cooke catalogues and you will be getting there.

I've got Peck and Freeman on the shelf! It's the Spink pricing, rather than the ID that intrigued me as, presumeably, these prices have come from actual auction sales of type?

I'm always up for viewing die and punch information at a deeper level, so will certainly try and dig out the 51

Will PM later, thanks again!

Ouija board, I'd heard?

Not quite. A rule of thumb is see what prices have been and knock off 10-20% because in the past couple of years in the saleroom, many prices have been inflated above what you can buy from dealers' lists or less well publicised sales. Too many people chasing too little stock and the internet has made the saleroom a global marketplace.

Many sales have had coins realising prices that if you bought in the room and marked them up in the trays, people would just laugh at you and walk away, so I think there has been more than a little buying at any price to spend money that may or may not be in the bank tomorrow.