Early Milled Coinage

[Guest Eliza]

Merry Xmas, Sylvester! And all Early Milled fanatics!

Sylvester, I'll photocopy what I believe to be the most helpful bits. If Chris has your snailmail address, I'll get that from him (he has mine, too). It may take a week or two -- I'm about to close up shop here at the Library, and we'll be closed down until next Friday.

A happy & auspicious New Year to all! May you find an SSC 6d in your pudding! (As for me, I'm simply hoping to not burn the house down with it.)

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Merry Xmas, Sylvester! And all Early Milled fanatics!

Sylvester, I'll photocopy what I believe to be the most helpful bits. If Chris has your snailmail address, I'll get that from him (he has mine, too). It may take a week or two -- I'm about to close up shop here at the Library, and we'll be closed down until next Friday.

A happy & auspicious New Year to all! May you find an SSC 6d in your pudding! (As for me, I'm simply hoping to not burn the house down with it.)

Eliza

Thanks Eliza, and Chris does have my snail mail somewhere!

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to everyone!

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I am now a proud owner of the 1949 first edition 'The English Silver Coinage' 1649-1949, by B A Seaby ltd.

No mintages in there, instead it gives each coin a rarity scale of about 1-10 and even shows patterns etc where only 2 or 3 examples are known. It's interesting comparing it to the latest 1992 edition. Some coins have actually managed to get more common over the 40+ year gap!

I also have a 1949 Seaby/Spink 'bible' to go with my 1968, 1970, 1974, 1989, 1998 and 2000-2004 editions. I love seeing how certain coins have risen in value and like Sylvester I wish I could go back and buy...For example, a 1937 Sovereign for £12.00 (2004 Cat value £750.00!)

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

No mintages in there, instead it gives each coin a rarity scale of about 1-10 and even shows patterns etc where only 2 or 3 examples are known. It's interesting comparing it to the latest 1992 edition. Some coins have actually managed to get more common over the 40+ year gap!

Chris that time machine would come in handy!

But on a more serious note...

Would you just look up the 1680 sixpence and see if it's down as the rarest of the Charles II stuff?

Going on the recent catalogue prices it does seem to be the key date, not by much though.

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Certainly, my pleasure...

In the 1949 Book is says R2, which means 'Very rare'. It also says the same in the 1992 book.

1682 is also listed as R2 in both books. There are some undated CII milled sixpences that are R5-R6 including one on a thicker (possibly shilling) flan.

The rarity scale in the books are as follows:

R7 Only 1 or 2 examples

R6 3-4 examples

R5 5-10 examples

R4 11-20 examples

R3 Extremely rare

R2 Very rare

R Rare

S Scarce

N Normal

C Common

C2 Very common

C3 Extremely common

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Certainly, my pleasure...

In the 1949 Book is says R2, which means 'Very rare'. It also says the same in the 1992 book.

1682 is also listed as R2 in both books. There are some undated CII milled sixpences that are R5-R6 including one on a thicker (possibly shilling) flan.

The rarity scale in the books are as follows:

R7 Only 1 or 2 examples

R6 3-4 examples

R5 5-10 examples

R4 11-20 examples

R3 Extremely rare

R2 Very rare

R Rare

S Scarce

N Normal

C Common

C2 Very common

C3 Extremely common

Chris

I knew about the 1682 one! I'll have to keep an eye out for that one. I saw about 4 Charles II Sixpences in a coin shop, all but one had that usual beautiful blue/black toning. All but one were very expensive. I'm hoping to go back in Jan to pick on up. One might have been a 1682? It certainly was about £200+

The 1680 in about F give or take was the other one without the beautiful tone, and was the affordable one at a measly £75 (i thought that was quite cheap considering it's the key date and all), although i must admit my current financial situation, being Christmas and all meant that £75 was no small sum for me, but i did manage to scrape the funds together and bought it.

I hope i can find a better one when i have the cash available. (If i have the cash available)

Oh and i also saw a King Stephen penny marked up at £350, it was a decent example, you could make out a portrait and you could make out the S in Stiefne, which for this issue is good!

[Sylvester 15]

Chris i've got a dilemma here...

I've got 2 sixpences (a 1693 and a 1750) that i'm almost certain have been cleaned at some point. Both are VF+ or better. The 1750 i'll be very surprised if it hasn't!

They show all the classic signs the hairlines and everything. BUT...

The more of these coins i'm observing i've noticed that quite a few of the EM sixpences have these hairline scratches heading in varying directions. Sometimes more promenant, sometime not as promenant. Sometime they are still there even if a coin has a genuine tone.

I've noticed it on the half guineas as well. One of mine shows them very well, but the lustre of the coin appears to be the as struck original lustre, not a cleaned lustre.

Therefore what other causes could it be, if not cleaning? Is it because of the high relief of the pre-1816 coins or what?

[Sylvester 15]

Chris what causes haymarking?

(for those that don't know the pitted look on some of the early milled stuff)

Is it a die flaw?

I think it is, but someone else i'm talking to thinks it's because they've been cleaned with acid.

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I suppose the hairlines could have just been where someone rubbed it with something at some early stage, not necessarily 'cleaning'.

I know it's newer than your area but I know that it's difficult to find a 1902 gold proof coin without hairlines because the mint workers tried to buff the matt surface when the coins came off the press.

I always judge by the tone of the coin, and if you are not happy with the way it looks then don't have it!

I suppose it is likely that people at the time just gave them a little rub to make them look nicer.

I thought that haymarking was due to rusted dies. I know that dies were often used beyond what they should have been, and that they sometimes got corroded or generally scummy, causing incuse damage to the coins they struck.

Maybe cleaning with acid would do a similar thing, but i think that's a bit Star Trek really, as the damage always looks contemporary to me!

But then i'm no expert.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

I suppose the hairlines could have just been where someone rubbed it with something at some early stage, not necessarily 'cleaning'.

I know it's newer than your area but I know that it's difficult to find a 1902 gold proof coin without hairlines because the mint workers tried to buff the matt surface when the coins came off the press.

I always judge by the tone of the coin, and if you are not happy with the way it looks then don't have it!

I suppose it is likely that people at the time just gave them a little rub to make them look nicer.

I thought that haymarking was due to rusted dies. I know that dies were often used beyond what they should have been, and that they sometimes got corroded or generally scummy, causing incuse damage to the coins they struck.

Maybe cleaning with acid would do a similar thing, but i think that's a bit Star Trek really, as the damage always looks contemporary to me!

But then i'm no expert.

Chris

Chris what do you think of this coin. (Cleaned or just a bad die?) Either way it's got problems. [if i can figure out how to get the image on here!] otherwise just follow the link, i'm not very computer literate i'm afraid...

http://www.coinpeople.com/forums/album_pag....php?pic_id=301

oh and this...

http://www.coinpeople.com/forums/album_pag....php?pic_id=287

Sylvester.

P.S I agree with you on the haymarking, it sounds very plausible.

[Chris Perkins 223]

The first one looks like something has got trapped between the coin and die, certainly looks contemporary, and a shame it's right on the bust. Does look a bit brighter than perhaps would be natural, but the tone isn't unplesant.

Second one looks cleaned to me, and probably recently, the tone looks too bright.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

The first one looks like something has got trapped between the coin and die, certainly looks contemporary, and a shame it's right on the bust. Does look a bit brighter than perhaps would be natural, but the tone isn't unplesant.

Second one looks cleaned to me, and probably recently, the tone looks too bright.

Chris

Cheers Chris.

That was my thought. There is also some slight die marks on the reverse. But the coin is a tad bright.

Second one does look cleaned. And recent, it's sad when they do that to them, without the cleaning a coin in such high grade there would be very nice.

Oh well

[Chris Perkins 223]

Lindner, SAFE and Lighthouse, the 3 major collecting accessory manufacturers here in Germany (and indeed the world) all produce cleaning/polishing dips for all metals!!!!

It's absolutely criminal, and they should know better!

Everyone in Germany cleans their coins, stupid people.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Lindner, SAFE and Lighthouse, the 3 major collecting accessory manufacturers here in Germany (and indeed the world) all produce cleaning/polishing dips for all metals!!!!

It's absolutely criminal, and they should know better!

Everyone in Germany cleans their coins, stupid people.

Chris

I bet you don't like selling coins to Germans then. I mean you just know they are going to take them home and clean them!

There is nothing as depressing (in my opinion) as seeing something like a beautifully blue toned Gothic Crown/Florin after the silvo/brasso has dealt it a blow.

Can't say i have seen it, but sadly i can imagine it.

I bet there are some morons out there that would clean one of those coins, because afterall bright white is obviously the best by far!

Sometimes you could bang their heads together.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I once heard from a US coin dealer who had travelled some considerable distance (by plane) to see a very nice collection of US coins for private sale....

When he arrived the owner said he had cleaned them up while he was on his way to make them more presentable!!!!

What was a collection worth 1000's of pounds was now worth face/bullion value.

As Tommy Cooper would say....'Just like that'

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

I once heard from a US coin dealer who had travelled some considerable distance (by plane) to see a very nice collection of US coins for private sale....

When he arrived the owner said he had cleaned them up while he was on his way to make them more presentable!!!!

What was a collection worth 1000's of pounds was now worth face/bullion value.

As Tommy Cooper would say....'Just like that'

Chris

I don't think i could repeat what i would have said...!

I think i would have attacked the owner with a pitchfork.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I have just shown Sylvester a picture of a sixpence I may soon have from a GB dealer....

[Sylvester 15]

I have just shown Sylvester a picture of a sixpence I may soon have from a GB dealer....

Having just seen that now!!!

Forget what i said in the post about showing a picture!

Not bad at all.

On my scale of EM Sixpences, Dark Green = easy to get hold of, Red with star = Near impossible. This weighs in at orange. (with a star).

It's the second hardest of the normal (non-proof) George II issue to get. Only being surpassed by the 1728 plain.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Thought you'd like it,

It occured to me that the seller may up her price if she realised that you wanted it so much!

So I removed the picture and edited my post to not say the year.

Would be grateful if you could keep it hush hush in here until I have it in hand

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Thought you'd like it,

It occured to me that the seller may up her price if she realised that you wanted it so much!

So I removed the picture and edited my post to not say the year.

Would be grateful if you could keep it hush hush in here until I have it in hand

Chris

Ah well Chris i've got my eye on those Charles II Sixpences i saw at that coin shop. Hopefully i'll put something aside for at least one of those. I think i'll break the bank if i try to get all three, two maybe if i can swindle it.

If she puts the price too far up!!! She should remember Charles ones are harder to get hold of...especially with such nice toning as those.

Oh and i've got a feeling i'm going to end up buying a Gothic Florin. Gorgeous coins, but i can't collect everything. By far my favourite English coin is that florin series, but doing the calculations it proved more achievable to do a sixpence collection. I always wanted something EM, but those florins are calling me.

I don't think i could take on two major collections!!! Arrgghhhh. Why did William Wyon design such a beautiful coin? There's temptation everywhere.

[Chris Perkins 223]

That's interesting...I just read that during the first 10 years of the reign of George III (1760-1770), £3,810 worth of farthings were struck all from the 1754 George II Dies.

That equates to 3,657,600 1754 farthings on top of the original 1754 farthings.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

That's interesting...I just read that during the first 10 years of the reign of George III (1760-1770), £3,810 worth of farthings were struck all from the 1754 George II Dies.

That equates to 3,657,600 1754 farthings on top of the original 1754 farthings.

Chris

Exactly the same thing happened with the 1758 shillings...

They were still being minted well into George III's reign. Not sure how far in though, but there sure is alot of them out there!

[Chris Perkins 223]

Probably up to 1763 I would have thought, until the £100 worth of Nothumberland's. Who knows??!!

Nobody.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Probably up to 1763 I would have thought, until the £100 worth of Nothumberland's. Who knows??!!

Nobody.

Chris

I'll tell you this for nothing, i have a distinct feeling that there was more than 2000 of those minted.

And why did they supposedly mint £100 worth, and not 100Gns worth?

[Chris Perkins 223]

Yes, good point.

Strange how a relatively modern period of coin production seems to be inaccurately or not at all recorded.

Will the truth ever be revealed, I wonder.

Chris