Early Milled Coinage

[Guest Eliza]

Chris, growing up as a nascent collector of US coins, I *always* saw that price was a function of mintage plus demand. It's been challenging and fun to figure out mintages and *existence* of the early milled coins, because their numbers are unknown! We "know" that relatively many shillings were minted in 1663, but 6d's not until 1674; but as of 1696, all bets are off, as many (most?) silver coins are rounded up and re-coined. How many were originally minted? How many melted and recoined? It's a mystery.

I talked to a dealer over the weekend who had three of the 1797 two pence "Cartwheels" with him. They were all EF and about $250 per. There it's not just mintage but the survival rate of the metal, too.

I found one other person looking for early British milled, but he was after farthings and half-pennies from Wm & Mary to Geo I. He seemed uttlerly shocked that someone else shared his specialty ...

Everyone else is trying to elbow his way into the slab market, IMO.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Everyone else is trying to elbow his way into the slab market, IMO.

Eliza

Which is of course, (in my opinion at least), a total rip off. I can understand the different grades and the eye appeal, like differences between MS63 and MS64, i can understand why that effects prices, but it's often the case that there is a ridiculous gap between the two prices.

Of course slabbing creates its own supply and demand, prices for MS64s will be higher than MS63s because the grading companies actually report how many they've graded in those grades, and it's obvious that there will be fewer 64s than 63s, so it's like a whole new set of mintage figures, but perhaps i should say condition figures.

The thing i think is really ridiculous though is the price difference for the same grade coin between say, PCGS and say the ACGS or the NGC. I won't go into ACG...

I must admit Early Milled isn't as popular in Britain as you might expect, most people stick with the post 1816 stuff...probably cos there's more designs to choose from and they change regularly...all that lovely Victorian stuff!

But in my opinion it takes one hell of a coin to beat the reverse of a George II sixpence with Roses or Plumes...the plain ones aren't as eyecatching though.

Sylvester.

Personally i think slabbing is a phase, maybe a long one, but eventually i think people will see sense and start buying coins again rather than plastic containers with a flash logo...that just happens to contain a coin.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Absolutly right, might as well call it slagging, because it's just coin prostitution!

Making money out of packing a coin into a plastic thingy, those huge differences in price between grades are laughable and manufactured by the industry. To a degree they take the actual learning and knowledge of grading aspect away from the coin collector for profit.

It should be about how much you are willing to pay for a coin based on how much you want it and how much other people have paid for it on the open market. Creating miniscule varities of Uncirculated inflates prices beyond real worth.

It is about feeding the needs of the people that are perhaps unsure and need 'official' aknowledgement of what they have. Preying on uncertainty. Take a coin to any dealer and he (she) will usually grade it well and for free!

Learn about your coins, study the differences between types, strikes etc. Appreciate the history, the designs, the building a collection. Organise and love your coins and they will always have a much higher value than being sealed in a plastic thing! All my coins are graded CP and that's the way they will stay.

Have you ever tried to get one of the coins out of those slags? I got a George V Half Crown from my good friend the late Mark Rosner once, graded by one of them as AU......It was scraping a GVF! It took so much smashing carefully with heavy items to crack and completely remove the coin to be properly graded, it was untrue!

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Have you ever tried to get one of the coins out of those slags? I got a George V Half Crown from my good friend the late Mark Rosner once, graded by one of them as AU......It was scraping a GVF! It took so much smashing carefully with heavy items to crack and completely remove the coin to be properly graded, it was untrue!

Chris

Ah Chris, this is a topic that has been discussed on RCC before!

If i remember rightly Reid Goldsborough stated many interesting ways of liberating these coins...anything from a sledgehammer to a chisel...(knowing Reid he's probably not joking about that either).

Someone also suggested heating up one of the edges to make it more flexable to ease getting the coin out.

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I live in an isolted mountainous region between Saxony and Bohemia, and I don't get out much at the moment.

What is RCC?

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

I live in an isolted mountainous region between Saxony and Bohemia, and I don't get out much at the moment.

What is RCC?

Chris

Chris; RCC, is an internet group for discussing coins. Unfortunately heavily biased towards US coins at the moment, but myself and others have recently been making waves on there and upsetting the US applecart...

World coins are becoming discussed a little more than they were. However we need more people to talk about World coins (actually US coins are World coins from my point of view...but i'll not get into that!).

Here's a link to the RCC. The group has also had a small number of it's own tokens made, and sometimes swaps coins, or rather (if you want to be involved), they have a host coin (did until it disappeared!) that gets passed around the group, (that's basically posted around the world) one member keeps it for a few weeks and then posts it on to the next person on the list...very fascinating, i don't think they've done that in a while though. (Since it disappeared)...if i follow it correctly? I wasn't a member when they were doing that though.

http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?hl=en&lr...ollecting.coins

tell me if it doesn't work...you might have to copy and paste it into your address bar...

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Suggestion for new topic: "Slabs -- more hype, less coin."

First off, a UNC coin is one that's shirked its duty. Coins are medium of exchange tools. An uncirculated coin has never had the joy of being slapped down on a counter somewhere to buy someone a beer in triumph after a Rugby match.

Sylvester mentions a Geo II 6d: I'll trump that with the Geo III 1787 6d. But we know what we mean.

I was on hand for a slab-breaking at the local coin shop I mentioned in another thread. It took two grown men a lot of heaving and groaning to get the thing prised (sp?) open. One wonders WHY so much time and expense is spent getting the item into the slabs in the first place.

The Victorian coins are lovely in their varieties, absolutely. But I love the history of the 1662-1816 coinage, and follow that as I would a sports team.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Suggestion for new topic: "Slabs -- more hype, less coin."

First off, a UNC coin is one that's shirked its duty. Coins are medium of exchange tools. An uncirculated coin has never had the joy of being slapped down on a counter somewhere to buy someone a beer in triumph after a Rugby match.

Sylvester mentions a Geo II 6d: I'll trump that with the Geo III 1787 6d. But we know what we mean.

I was on hand for a slab-breaking at the local coin shop I mentioned in another thread. It took two grown men a lot of heaving and groaning to get the thing prised (sp?) open. One wonders WHY so much time and expense is spent getting the item into the slabs in the first place.

The Victorian coins are lovely in their varieties, absolutely. But I love the history of the 1662-1816 coinage, and follow that as I would a sports team.

Eliza

You hit the nail right on the head there Eliza!

An uncirculated coin is indeed less interesting than one that has seen moderate circulation (alright we don't want to go raving mad with praising FAIR condition coins over EF since so much detail is missing).

I have stood by this argument through thick and thin and have often been flamed for it, (And i've also defended graffitied coins as an important piece of history, detracts from the investment value of a piece [that wasn't under dispute] but it adds to the numismatic history (and value to someone studying coins and history). Anyhow one collector didn't agree with me and he stated that; *quote*- "real collectors care about grade", as if i wasn't a real collector! And the person that said tat was Scottish, not American so it's nothing to do with slab-fans...

Sylvester.

I like the George III stuff too...and Gothic Florins.

[Chris Perkins 223]

I think there is a case for collecting perfect coins, but there certainly is also a case for collecting coins with advertising slogans on them or anything else contemporary.

They are different spheres, both interesting, and both have a place.

I like my PEARS SOAP 1855 10 Franc coin!

Chris

[Guest Eliza]

Now, to be sure, coins in EF/UNC are fine as exemplars. But the slabbing phenomenon has gotten waaaay out of hand. Being able to grade is good intellectual discipline (Sylvester, you're owed an apology for that crack about 'real' collectors, etc.), but as long as demand is hyped for higher-grade coins, the market will respond accordingly.

That *should* mean that those of us who prefer the VF grades might have a better chance of "competing." (I do NOT like to think of my hobby as competitive.)

And, frankly, sometimes you need a VF-EF coin to show its detail. The sixpence pieces, for example, are really best above F. There's still a 1723 SSC 6d in EF for $165, and I know it's a glorious coin, but far above my budget. I bet I can find one in F-VF for less than half, with as much detail.

Eliza

PS Pears Soap 10 Franc? Please describe!

[Sylvester 15]

And, frankly, sometimes you need a VF-EF coin to show its detail. The sixpence pieces, for example, are really best above F. There's still a 1723 SSC 6d in EF for $165, and I know it's a glorious coin, but far above my budget. I bet I can find one in F-VF for less than half, with as much detail.

Eliza

PS Pears Soap 10 Franc? Please describe!

Eliza, just on the topic of Early Milled stuff, do you find the prices higher in the US than what we pay over here? (or lower?)

The reason why i ask is because i'm thinking about starting with my Morgan Dollar collection (and expanding my Type III $20 Double Eagle collection, alright i have one so far...but we've all got to start somewhere). The thing is; the prices i see US citizens paying for these coin in the States is some way below the prices that they are going on Ebay for over here! (Supply and demand and all).

Common date Morgans tend to go for about $40 in EF-UNC (MS60) grades, and Double Eagles are by far the worst, the prices i see quoted for VF examples go for about $450 in the US, which equates to about £274.50, although i often find them going for about £330 over here, so that's about $540. YOU END UP PAYING WELL OVER THE CATALOGUE PRICE.

I think supply and demand must have something to do with it, i saw a F+ conditioned 1904 $20 go for about £275 the other day, which is what an MS60 example should go for! I kept well clear of that one, as i knew they'd paid over the odds there.

Regarding Early milled sixpences i tend to prefer them in VF+, preferably EF+, the only reason is; they were struck in such high relief that below VF much detail is missing, and in coins of this period i like to see as much detail as possible so that i can appreciate the workmanship and labour that went into carving the die. A nice blue tone also makes coins of this period look fantastic.

Regarding that 1723 sixpence, i personally think that coin is important for so many reasons. One it was the only year of SSC minted sixpences ever! Two it's the most common of the George I sixpences. Three it's a very nice coin and Fourthly...

It's SSC! The South Sea Company, of bubble fame, there is a piece of history engraved on a coin. (Just like VIGO, for the victory at Vigo Bay...no-one's sure what LIMA's all about though!).

When did the South Sea Bubble burst, was it about 1721? All i really know about it is that it was in essence the first stock market crash, very much like 1929...

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester, "LIMA" as I understand it was a sort of journey of exploration. As if people had sailed to Disney World and then commemorated it by stamping "DW" under the bust. I know it's more complicated than that: any expedition into South America at the time, the mid-18th century, is going to bring you nose-to-nose with the Empire of Spain. It's my impression that "Lima" is as much a nose-thumb as "Vigo" is. "Ha ha, here we are in your backyard, nyah nyah." I grossly over-simplify, of course. The South Sea Company was not only a stock market crash but an entire investment scheme into which the government entered with high hopes to get out from under considerable debt after the latest round of wars in the time of Queen Anne.

Oh, one of these days I'll encounter an SSC 6d that will call out to me. But it's Xmas time ... !

As for Morgan dollars, I bought one for a friend, AU/UNC, common date (like, 1883 or something) and it was about $15 (8 GBP). I am GREATLY SUSPICIOUS of Ebay, doing most of my business with GBC Coins and Harlan J. Berk. Chris's US associate who holds the early milled coins via this URL also has a listing of US coins and quite a run of Morgan dollars. I know that typically, I can get any one of them, slabbed or "naked," at my local coin shop.

As for gold ... I am ashamed to say that Americans just have no sanity or sense of proportion when it comes to gold. Gold is a poison in my culture, as bad as crack or heroin. People can't get enough and so the prices reflect it. All the survivalism humbug of years ago during the Cold War expresses itself in gold hoarding. I imagine that if the slab market is bad, the gold market is worse by a factor of 10, totally ruinous to an innocent and enthusiastic numismatist.

Eliza

[Guest Eliza]

So, to answer your question ...

(Please excuse the interruptions! I sign on about 8am our time, at the beginning of my workday, but post only as I have an odd moment to do so. I realize that it's about 2pm "forum time".)

The 2d cartwheels I saw at this show I'm going on and on about (the first coin show I'd attended in 30 years!) were about $100 more in the same grade than what I see online at my dealers-of-choice. HOWEVER, it's what's available, of course. The early hammered coins available at GBC tend to be reasonable but have "problems," while the York or CNG offerings are gorgeous and untouchable.

I would like to say that I think Chris's prices here are eminently reasonable and certainly in line with the US offerings of Victorian coins in the same grade. On the whole, despite the "heat," the US prices for early milled British coins are very reasonable for the grade BUT you have to shop around.

The US stuff over here, the Morgans for example, is really very affordable (I'm not talking slabbed or key dates or gold). And if you KNOW your local dealer, it's someone who *sees you* from time to time, you can "wheel and deal." I typically get 10% off what I buy (which is increasing little) at my local shop. (Which shows you the mark-up in the first place!)

I'll mention again that I am DEEPLY distrustful of Ebay.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

I'll mention again that I am DEEPLY distrustful of Ebay.

Eliza

Aren't we all!

I don't buy that much off of there, only the really low grade stuff, like US scrap silver, helps me to poke around in it and see what i can learn, especially with quarters, i enjoy searching through loads of scrap coins looking for dates/mintmarks i haven't got. And i really like Mercury Dimes, so i've accumulated quite a few low grade ones this way, and more 1941/2s than ever!... I think i now know which dates the most common, learning through fieldwork there...and if anyone tries to rip you off the loss is marginal in such low grades with low prices.

One thing i saw on Ebay which made me laugh...was someone that was selling a George III Half guinea, with the beautiful line...

'this coin is in need of a clean and it still retains the original hole so that blind people could tell what denomination it was'

I'm still trying to get over that one...

Otherwise i stick to reputable dealers.

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

That is very funny! As if they cared about blind people back then, and as if a bind person was ever likely to hold such a high denomination.

I once saw a George III Guinea being advertised as a Gold Roman coin with an emperor on the front. It was worn almost beyond recognition, but certainly wasn't Roman.

My mate Richard at www.coinsforsale.co.uk was out on a buying trip yesterday and encountered 3 Churchill crowns prices a very fair £8.50 each! I will be so rick with the 500 I have!

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

My mate Richard at www.coinsforsale.co.uk was out on a buying trip yesterday and encountered 3 Churchill crowns prices a very fair £8.50 each! I will be so rick with the 500 I have!

Chris

If anyone is willing to pay that much for one of those then they are mad!

I got one in a bag of coins that i bought off of Ebay, of course i didn't buy it, it just came free with everything else in the bag that i did buy!

Sylvester.

Churchill Crowns are the epitome of evil.

[Emperor Oli 0]

Churchill Crowns are the epitome of evil.

Christians would probably say Godless Florins are

[Guest Eliza]

No no no. The double florin. When I got one by mail, it fell out of the packaging and nearly broke my toe. There's still a dent in the flooring ... Pure spite. I'm glad they were withdrawn.

Sylvester! I've found a better history of the mint book! I'll post details tomorrow -- I have to check it out tonight. And don't look now, but a LIMA 6d and half-crown have turned up on a URL I mentioned, for $165 for the sixpence in EF.

So close to Xmas this is all very vexing. And now I have to go buy a cd ...

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Churchill Crowns are the epitome of evil.

Christians would probably say Godless Florins are

True but not being a Christian...

i must admit i like em alot, now there is a coin i would love to specialise in, i make that 4 varieties, 1848 proof, 1849 w.w., 1849 w.w. partially obliterated, 1849 w.w. totally obliterated. But i'll not continue this conver further since it belongs on the late milled section. I know i'm bad...

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester, I was not able to haul in this new book I referred to. The brief bib is this: "A New History of the Royal Mint." Cambridge UK & New York : Cambridge U. Press, 1992.

Same data for early milled by weight, but I suspect it may be organized more efficiently. I hope to get time to take a better look tonight.

Eliza's week at work has been a month too long ...

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Sylvester, I was not able to haul in this new book I referred to. The brief bib is this: "A New History of the Royal Mint." Cambridge UK & New York : Cambridge U. Press, 1992.

Same data for early milled by weight, but I suspect it may be organized more efficiently. I hope to get time to take a better look tonight.

Eliza's week at work has been a month too long ...

Eliza

Eliza keep me posted on what you find! (if anything!). I went to my library today as i promised i would but i found nothing much except general books that just showed you the odd picture, but no real info for advanced collectors.

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

That's no good. Hmmm. Okay: let me tell you that I've had good luck via abebooks.com for finding out-of-print stuff. I know for a fact (searched it this week) that there are copies of Mackay's "History of Modern British Coinage" availble *in the UK* through dealers linked to abebooks.com. I think our library copy was marked L8 95p, but that was in 1984. I found a copy for US$20, so you should find comparable prices there.

This is a GREAT reference and I'd strongly encourage you to either 1) get it yourself; or 2) hint broadly that Mr. S. Claus would be highly thought-of for delivering a copy on the appropriate day.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

That's no good. Hmmm. Okay: let me tell you that I've had good luck via abebooks.com for finding out-of-print stuff. I know for a fact (searched it this week) that there are copies of Mackay's "History of Modern British Coinage" availble *in the UK* through dealers linked to abebooks.com. I think our library copy was marked L8 95p, but that was in 1984. I found a copy for US$20, so you should find comparable prices there.

This is a GREAT reference and I'd strongly encourage you to either 1) get it yourself; or 2) hint broadly that Mr. S. Claus would be highly thought-of for delivering a copy on the appropriate day.

Eliza

I just ended up at ABE too searching for the book you mentionned no luck as you said...i got there entirely by accident, so don't think that i didn't believe you, cos i did.

There is one book on there entitled;

'A Start to Coin Collecting. English Coins Elizabeth II To Charles II'

...never heard of it so i couldn't say whether it's any good or not. But the reason why i picked it out is because it was written by one Margaret Amstell, and that name looked very familiar to me...

Then i realised that she was the one that was mentionned in my 1985 coin price guide as setting a new all time record for a British Coin, when she bought one of the few surviving Henry III Gold Pennies for £65, 000.

In 1985 money that was a phenominal amount, (still is from where i'm sitting) bearing in mind that you could buy 1694 sixpences for £110 in VF. Now they go for £250 in VF.

If only i could go back to 1985 for a day with the money i have now...well i'd write out a cheque so that they wouldn't look at me gone out when i hand them a few Fry fivers rather than Wellington fivers, or conversly ridiculously small 5ps, rather than ones that are considerably bigger and harder to lose.

Oh if only...

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

As if Eliza will have a clue about your Fry fivers or tiddly 5p's! Don't forget she's a colonial

I imagine your cheque book having a date starting with 20-- would probably put any sellers off in 1985 too!

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

As if Eliza will have a clue about your Fry fivers or tiddly 5p's! Don't forget she's a colonial

I imagine your cheque book having a date starting with 20-- would probably put any sellers off in 1985 too!

Chris

Well you never know she might have seen a picture of one!

Grrr i didn't think about the date on the cheque book. I could just tell em it was an error, or perhaps, perhaps i could just redated it '84...

Might work... might...

Sylvester.