Early Milled Coinage

[Sylvester 15]

This is a bit of a long shot, but does anyone have access to any mintage figures for Early Milled coins (1662-1815) especially sixpences (also half guineas, especially James II ones) because i have been unable to find any at all. Most mintage figures that i have come across have been either for Elephant and Castle Guineas (unfortunately not much good to me because i don't collect them!), and post 1816 mintage figures, but i've shifted away from these coins over the last few years to the earlier stuff, so they aren't much good to me either.

Any help (even mintage figures for any date from 1674-1787 not a comprehensive list of them all, would be a start)

Thanks in advance

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Sylvester,

In the book I offer on the site: 'Collectors George III coins' it does have some mintage data for the coins of George III, although some of it is patchy:

http://www.predecimal.com/george3rd_coin_book.htm

The author R J Marles must have found it out somehow!

I don't own the Krause 1701-1800 book, but I would imagine if it's anything like the 1801-1900 and 1901-2003 book then it will have lots of mintage numbers in it. Quite a lot of money though when you just want UK stuff and not all the countries in the world!

For some reason the likes of Spink/Seaby and other British publishers seem to be shy when it comes to publishing mintage numbers.

Stick around,

Chris

www.predecimal.com

[Guest Eliza]

Hi Sylvester and Chris,

(I'll transfer the conversation we had going in the new topics thread to Early Milled, where it properly belongs.)

I didn't get much "studying" done over the weekend: small matter of a football game played on Saturday of interest to many, many people in the state of Michigan.

I'm still not finding mintage numbers but rather how much is coined *by weight*. It's very frustrating because I'd like to know the mintage numbers for the small denominations, especially shillings and sixpence, the "working coins" of common transactions.

You raised an interesting point about the 1964 Kennedy half dollar. It's odd that the Franklin half dollars, also silver, do not seem to have been hoarded in the same way -- no doubt because Ben Franklin has far less cachet in the States than the Kennedy 'Camelot' White House.

Also, silver, not gold, is traditionally the 'peoples' metal'. (Bi-metallism was a HUGE political consideration in the 19th century in the US.) The shilling in the 17th-19th centuries in GB parallels the AR denarius in the Roman world, I gather.

Eliza

[Guest Eliza]

Btw ...

What explains the "heat" of the early milled coin market these last couple of years? I mean, I'm not much affected, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

Eliza

[Chris Perkins 223]

Good question.

From personal experience the people that buy most of the early milled coins are dealers. I once bought a James II Guinea from a US dealer and sold it to another dealer, so by the time it gets to a collector 3 dealers have all made a profit on it!

I think the steady rise in internet auctions and sites like mine have fuelled it a bit, the easy availabilty has grown. Also there have been rumours abound that investors are getting a sniff of coins in there 'portfolios'.

The buzz creates an extra demand and an extra demand sees higher prices and therfore more people wanting to sell I suppose.

maybe also the realisation that these mini works of art have been under valued for year.

Those are my thoughts.

Chris

www.predecimal.com

[Sylvester 15]

Btw ...

What explains the "heat" of the early milled coin market these last couple of years? I mean, I'm not much affected, but it's an interesting phenomenon.

Eliza

Luckily i seem to have avoided most of this sudden interest in the early milled phase, for one basic reason. That reason is that most people that get into the early stuff predictably go for the following coins; Guineas (if they're well to do of course), Crowns (likewise not cheap), and the biggest by far that i've noticed Halfcrowns...those three denominations seem to be by far the most collected of the range. Shillings are not too far behind i shouldn't think neither.

The thing is though i went into sixpences because there are fewer of them to get to obtain a full set, they are cheaper and the small size of them actually does most of the designs credit, notice how stunning a high condition sixpence (say EF) can look next to a lower conditioned crown of the same price (say VF). Size doesn't matter!

However there are some other under collected areas in this series, the half guineas, although in many instances far rarer than the guinea for some dates, they often go for the same price as demand for the larger coin is higher, as people like to collect the 'full thing' so to speak (it's also why early sovereigns go for the same price as early half sovereigns, despite the latter being rarer it's not as well collected).

By far the most under researched coins of this period, it should come as no surprise is the five guinea and the two guinea coins, but very few collectors have that kind of money, hence the lack of research done on them.

The 1703 VIGO Five Guinea piece is fascinating as out of the few that have survived (very few were struck in the first place), at least two or three different obverses are thought to exist, maybe more, but this is still under going research.

Personally i still think that the sixpence is under appreciated because as i often set foot in the York coin shop and ask for early milled sixpences, the usual reply is either none are available, or if they are they turn out to be 1696, 1697, 1698, 1711, 1723SSC, 1745 LIMA, 1746 LIMA, 1757, 1758 and of course 1787.

Now if they aren't the most common dates out there i'll eat my hat.

Then you look at the Halfcrown selection and there's a whole plethora of dates and obverse/reverse combinations, not to mention edge lettering varieties available!

Although i once saw a GVF James II 1686? sixpence i think it was 1686, might have been an 87 though, but i didn't have the cash on me at the time or i would have snapped it up.

Now there's a coin you just don't see. Oh and likewise i also missed out on the 1694 (and it was a very good one too!) due to not having £350 on my person. That actually came from a whole collection of early milled sixpences that he had just purchased, but i didn't have the cash, next time i went in the whole lot had gone. Pity that, it really was.

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Chris,

I agree that these coins are "mini works of art" and have been undervalued. My impression (completely unscientific) is that indeed, the early milled coins are relatively available, especially in grades that are just at the basic "investing level" of, say, F-VF. I look through World Coin News and there are FDC specimens for thousands US$ and just untouchable. But you can purchase a Chas II shilling in VF-XF and it's not an arm & leg.

I also think it's partly because the US coins market is bloated. When I came back to collecting as an adult, everything was "slabbed." I had to ask my local dealer what a "slab" was! IMHO, too many people are trying to make money off the market after the stock market binge & bust in the US. NOW people want something hard and tangible for their "investment $" and this is their harbour of refuge.

I've been monitoring how items appear and disappear at a dealer in Chicago. Two-three weeks ago there were half a dozen Chas II-Geo I items for offer. Only an SSC 1723 6d in XF for $165 is left today. Other hammered coins in investment condition are hanging around, as also the Victorian items. Two Eliz I shillings have been there for a month or two.

I wouldn't have noticed these trends a year ago ...

Eliza

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester,

Dude! You are SO right about the mintage statistics being unavailable! I was looking at a 1800-1900 Krause, sixpences ... Geo III etc ... NO INFORMATION before 1816. I know where there's an old 1700-1800 Krause I can steal a peek at. NOW I'm intrigued.

I recall from one of the books I've been reading -- possibly a history of the mint and the Bank of England -- that shillings & sixpences were minted in great volume in 1757 and 1758 for Xmas giving. I ask myself, *what* consitites "great volume"? Where *are* these statistics?

I absolutely agree with regarding size -- it's condition and intricacy that catch *my* eye. I bought an Eliz I shilling, common date, Fine, just to have (my namesake). When I got it, I was devastated! The reverse is o.k. but the portrait weak (probably why I got it for what I did). BIG flan. But the "little" Victoria shilling of 1900 I have, very common, in XF -- just gorgeous! Ditto my Geo II 6d from Monticello, really only a curio.

Shillings and sixpences are the heavy horses of common transactions, much like -- in the States -- quarter dollars are now. The half crowns and crowns are more likely to get stashed away as heirlooms, I think, and come out in better condition relative to their numbers (where they don't get melted down).

As for gold coins ... isn't it the 1703 VIGO 5 G. on the 2003 Spink cover?

Oh Sylvester, I hope we're not in a bidding war for the shillings and 6ds!

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Don't worry, i'm not into Shillings (yet) too many dates/varieties for my budget and the prices in the higher grades are far higher.

I'd rather have a go at collecting something that will be a challenge, take some years to do, but i think the shillings will take a bit too long and at too much cost. Thinking here of such specimens as that (1666?...i can't quite remember whether this is the date or not), shilling with the obverse from the die of a guinea. (It's thought the original shilling die got destroyed in the Great Fire of London in 1666).

And if i recall it might well be the five guinea piece on the front of that coin catalogue!

One book i do recommend if you haven't already got it, is "Coincraft's 2000 Standard Catalogue of English and UK Coins, 1066 to date" There's plenty of info in there about shillings and sixpences. (No early modern mintage figures though, except for the elephant and castle guineas).

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester, I very much appreciate the tip. I do not have that book, and wouldn't have known to get it. My State numismatic society is having its fall convention this weekend, and it's not too far away, so I may drop by and look specifically for reference works like the one you described.

Are you familiar with "The Splendid Shilling," by James O. Mays? It's not an academic work but a popular narrative history of "an engaging coin" (says the subtitle). We have it in our library. Alas, no mintage figures ...

So WHERE are the mintage figures? The Krauses and a work by Craig covering 1750-1850 were not forthcoming. Was no one keeping a record by coin, but only by weight?

Hmmm ...

Eliza

[Chris Perkins 223]

Well it's looking increasingly like no one knows the mintage figures!

I have a copy of 'English Silver coinage' and it just gives silver coins a rarity scale, no mintages as far as I can see.

Perhaps the only figures are by weight or face value.

Chris

[Sylvester 15]

Well it's looking increasingly like no one knows the mintage figures!

I have a copy of 'English Silver coinage' and it just gives silver coins a rarity scale, no mintages as far as I can see.

Perhaps the only figures are by weight or face value.

Chris

I have the first edition of Edward Hawkin's 'Silver Coins of England' (published 1841) , and there is no mention of mintage figures in their either.

Although the most interesting thing in this book is the annotations in the margin by a previous owner (looks to be Victorian handwriting...definately written with a quill...actually it looks a bit like my handwriting which is scary!)

One intersting footnote/annotation is that the book stated that in 1650 there were no halfcrowns minted, (no anything minted actually), and the date 1650 has a small star penned in beside it refering to his? comments at the bottom, which states "I bought one in Birmingham, query, Is it genuine?...if so very rare-"

It's things like this that makes numismatics even more fascinating. Seeing what people in the past have had, and i often wonder where these coins are now, and is it possible that i might own one of them?

I've yet to find the First Edition to Kenyon's gold coins of England [published 1887?]...but i'm keeping an eye out for it.

No mintage figures yet though.

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Kenyon ... I'll take a look. One of the joys of a library career is that you get very, very good at finding books. And, most of the time, information ... or explanations of why you can't get certain information. I'm wondering if the mintage figures for 1662 or so through 1816 aren't buried in economic history somewhere, but you'd think people would still find them and print them!

Sylvester, indeed -- it's the opportunity to be involved with one's collecting at so many levels that really distinguishes numismatics. Something for everyone!

Eliza

[Guest Eliza]

Oh dear.

Sylvester, we have a copy of Kenyon's 1884 "The Gold Coins of England" printed by B. Quaritch. Is that the edition you had in mind? It's in our library system, in storage.

I can have a look at it, and it *might* be available for Inter-Library Loan. Just FYI.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Kenyon ... I'll take a look. One of the joys of a library career is that you get very, very good at finding books. And, most of the time, information ... or explanations of why you can't get certain information. I'm wondering if the mintage figures for 1662 or so through 1816 aren't buried in economic history somewhere, but you'd think people would still find them and print them!

Sylvester, indeed -- it's the opportunity to be involved with one's collecting at so many levels that really distinguishes numismatics. Something for everyone!

Eliza

Actually Eliza i have had a brain wave of sorts, you say that the total number of coins issued for any one year are given in weight rather than numbers minted.

Well if you could find the figures for say, all the shillings minted in 1697 (as a pure example), then taking the weight of the average shilling, you could figure out roughly how many were minted. Perhaps exactly how many were minted because coins of this period were still based on their weight, rather than their size (notice how the size varies by a few 32nds of an inch on these older coins, some are also rounder than others).

Failing that i think you are spot on with your assumption that the mintage figures are lost within the depths of economic history. I bet for instance you could find (in the sixpences at least, since this is my area of speciality, so i know the dates...hopefully!), 1674 (the first issue), and even more so i bet you'd have a very good chance of finding out the 1696/7/8 mintage figures as it was this mass coinage that saw the ousting of the hammered silver coins. Other dates possibly the VIGO stuff, the SSC stuff (Shillings also have the WCC, I've often wondered why a copper company would supply silver?), and dates 1757, 1758. And there must be figures for 1787.

I'm just going to consult a book about a shilling...

Sylvester.

[Sylvester 15]

Eliza i've got a few mintage figures, one definate...

1798 shillings, there was £30,000 minted which equates to £30,000 x 20, or 600,000 actual coins. Of which many got melted as they were deemed an illegal issue.

I think that's right, i was having a problem there for a minute trying to figure out whether it needed multiplying or dividing.

Also in 1787 my book states that £55,549 silver coins were minted. That includes sixpences and shillings presumably, so it's probably fair to say that the mintage of 1787 shilling is some way below 600,000 a piece. If it was this is IF (which i doubt), a mintage of half each, i.e £27,774 of shillings and £27,775 of sixpences, then you'd be looking at about, 555,480 shillings and about 1, 111,000 sixpences. Although i think that sixpence figure is somewhat high.

There was also a rumour that the 1763 issue of shillings was limited to an issue of £100 face value, but the Coincraft book states that this is probably not true and i agree, because the mintage figure would be only about 2000 specimens. And going on the current prices one of these coins sell for about £180 in F condition, so i doubt that's true because if it was i'd expect that price to be considerably higher.

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester, I think we're onto something here. You've gone further and done the math! I'm putting the puzzle together this way:

My two main references are "A History of Modern English Coinage," James Mackay (London : Longman, 1984); and

"The Great Recoinage of 1696 to 1699" by Ming-Hsun Li (London : Weidenfeld and Nicolson, 1963).

For example:

Li: "After 1663 only milled coins were struck ... The standard of both the milled and hammered coins was the same, which had not been altered since the 43rd year of Queen Elizabeth's reign (1601), i.e. for every pound troy weight of silver *three pounds and two shillings sterling were coined*, with a fineness of eleven ounces and two pennyweight of fine silver and eighteen pennyweight of alloy, and with an allowance of two pence in weight or in fineness." (p.47)

Mackay: "Shillings were struck in considerable quantites in 1663, using at least two obverse dies. So many shillings were struck that year that no more were needed until 1666. A second and more flattering profile was adopted in 1666, but only a *handful* of shillings were struck from this die and it was not generally used until 1668 ....

The sixpence was not introduced until 1674 and was quite straightforward. Only one bust was used, without mintmarks or die variants. Sixpences were struck every year until 1684, those of 1678 and 1682 being overstrikes on the previous dates." (pgs. 92-93).

(Emphases mine.)

I have a history of the royal mint at home, and it has charts of all the weights of gold and silver output from about 1326 right up until its printing date, 1955 or so. As you've done, it's a matter of doing the math and getting the "ballpark" figure. Mckay's book is excellent for its anecdotal narrative of variants and scarcities. When combined, all three give a fairly good composite picture of, if nothing else, the common and scarce dates of shillings and sixpence.

I very much appreciate this opportunity to do such research! If you'd like me to post the weights of silver coined for the years 1662-1787, I can very easily, but it'll need to wait a day or two. The Thanksgiving holiday begins tomorrow.

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Eliza, i would be very grateful of those weights of silver and gold, and i've waited for some time now for them so another few weeks isn't going to be a problem. Then i think i better get good at adding up/dividing and converting imperial into metric (since all the figures i have access to are in grams...)

I take it they are Troy Pounds and ounces that have been used? If so then it should make it easier as these can be converted to grains and i'm sure i had figure to convert grains into grammes.

Sylvester.

[Chris Perkins 223]

When you two have done your sums I'd be only too pleased to publish your findings on the site.

Chris

[Guest Eliza]

Chris, what a generous offer!

Sylvester: I recall very hazily from the mint history book that it *might* be Troy for gold and Avoirdupois for silver (and copper/tin). I'll be able to state specifically what is published there with full bibliographic details -- alas, just now, I have to finish out the work day (since I came in late after taking my cat to the Vet for a check-up).

I was thumbing through the Mackay book on work break. I can't emphasize enough what a fabulous reference it is.

Back soon I hope!

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

Eliza

If you email me the dates/weights then i'll have a go at tackling them.

Are they weights per denomination each year, or are they weights of all silver (or gold) coins for that year? Cos if it's the latter it's going to be very tricky...very!

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Hi Sylvester!

Alas, it's weight per *all metal coined* that year and not at all by denomination. I'll give you an example:

Reference: John Craig, "The Mint: A History of the London Mint from A.D. 287 to 1948." Cambridge : The University Press, 1953. Pages 410-422.

year // 22 carat gold L44 10s. pound troy (L3. 17s. 10 1/2d. an oz.) // silver 62s. to lb. troy (L)

1662 // 4 , 439 // 243 , 640

1663 // 31 , 305 // 364 , 391

1664 // 9 , 649 // 216 , 490

1665 // 69 , 321 // 75 , 365

1666 // 92 , 530 // 32 , 804

to 21 Dec. 1666 // 42 , 284 // 34 , 751

to 21 Dec. 1667 // 117 , 344 // 53 , 386

1668 // 222 , 444 // 122 , 708

1669 // 120 , 667 // 46 , 398

1670 // 117 , 576 // 132 , 580

1671 // 194 , 078 // 124 , 171

1672 // 86 , 887 // 273 , 990

1673 // 127 , 150 // 304 , 930

1674 // 87 , 540 // 41 , 185

This is where one needs additional sources to outline the picture, i.e. the tables in Spink that show that 6d. weren't minted until 1674, so silver from 1662-1673 WON'T include 6ds., etc. Furthermore, no groats, 3d-1ds were struck until 1670 (although there are undated groats, apparently).

I don't know if I'll be online again today, but hopefully I've given you a bit to have fun with for the time being. If you can, find the mint history in your library. It's better to see the data & sources first-hand, IMO.

Good luck!

Eliza

[Sylvester 15]

I'll give it a shot but it might take a few weeks, probably next weekend if i get the time i'll dash off to my local library and sift through some books and see what i can find out! That is; see if i can clarify the issue further by quoting other sources to see if it states any where; e.g. how many halfcrowns were minted in weight during any of these years. Without doing that though it's pure speculation until we can break those weights up into denominations.

Sylvester.

[Guest Eliza]

Sylvester, now that campus is back in session after the holiday I can retrieve a few books out of storage. I'm looking at silver coinage specifically, but can also keep an eye open for gold mintages. I know the Kenyon work on gold coins is in storage but I've requested his book on silver just now.

Knowing a bit about the cultural and intellectual milieu of the times, Locke & Smith & Newton, I cannot imagine that reason and scientific method wouldn't have been applied to coining. Somewhere SOMEONE must have scribbled down how many shillings, how many sixpence pieces, and so on, were minted. The Craig book has a wonderful bibliography, the Mackay book not so much.

I'm also going to look into histories of the Pound Sterling and various other economic treatises. My question is ... how do Spink & Coincraft know to adjust their values, if they don't have the mintage figures?

Hmmmm!

Good hunting,

Eliza

PS At the show over the weekend I saw *very little* early-early milled stuff, but found a VF-EF 1758 shilling for a VERY agreeable price. I think it was graded in a hurry: there was still violet-blue toning in the devices on the reverse and hardly any wear. A common year but a fairly uncommon condition. My souvenir of the show!

[Chris Perkins 223]

how do Spink & Coincraft know to adjust their values, if they don't have the mintage figures?

They base their prices quoted on what they and other dealers are selling those coins for. The demand for any particular coins, auction results past and present, inflation etc.

In short, they are based on what is available now, nothing to do with how many were minted. I suppose the quanitity of a particular coin available now is in most cases relative to the numbers produced

I have noticed that American price catalogues religiously show mintage numbers for everything. Spink have never done that, apart from recently they have started to show issue numbers for certain proof coins.

Sometimes I think that it would be a good idea if Spink did likewise but perhaps this would lead to frenzy like up and downs in prices that US coin collecting seems to see often.

Chris