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I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

Bring back eugenics I say, that'll sort it all out within a few generations and Darwin can be right about the human race too ...

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I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

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lol

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I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

If you know any bankers having a party and you can get me an invite, do send it on. If you fancy a night in some shithole in West Cumbria I can certainly pass on a couple of addresses, all you will need is a bottle of white lightening, 40 Lambert and Butler and a hep B jab before you go.

I know where I'd rather be....

The trouble with "come the revolution, comrades" is that it will be the same hooded verminous scum that carried out last years looting, robbing and murdering during the "riots" that will be your Revolutionaries, but "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

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I think as Brits, living in a largely secular society, we fail to understand the way atheists are marginalised in the States, which is a far more religious society than ours. Hence they get much more aggressive in forums, as they probably feel the world is against them. I've heard them tell it "like it is", and it's jaw-dropping. Much as I love Americans, I could never live in a country where Christian belief is the expected "norm".

I think that's very true. Towards the end of 1981 I was working at Philip Morris in Richmond VA. First day in the lab and doing the introductions when one person expalined where to go in the locality. Shopping mall 3 blocks down, Macdonalds or Burger King there for a meal(sic), cinema complex next door, various bars this way and that and then the church is turn right at the lights. When I explained that I didn't use them it was like being the star attraction in a freak show. "Hey, there's this guy here doesn't go to church". "That's weird". It was most bizarre and like you I find the religious norm (in the parts so inclined) quite a turn-off in a place that is otherwise nice to visit - just couldn't live there. It's not all like that though.

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I think as Brits, living in a largely secular society, we fail to understand the way atheists are marginalised in the States, which is a far more religious society than ours. Hence they get much more aggressive in forums, as they probably feel the world is against them. I've heard them tell it "like it is", and it's jaw-dropping. Much as I love Americans, I could never live in a country where Christian belief is the expected "norm".

I think that's very true. Towards the end of 1981 I was working at Philip Morris in Richmond VA. First day in the lab and doing the introductions when one person expalined where to go in the locality. Shopping mall 3 blocks down, Macdonalds or Burger King there for a meal(sic), cinema complex next door, various bars this way and that and then the church is turn right at the lights. When I explained that I didn't use them it was like being the star attraction in a freak show. "Hey, there's this guy here doesn't go to church". "That's weird". It was most bizarre and like you I find the religious norm (in the parts so inclined) quite a turn-off in a place that is otherwise nice to visit - just couldn't live there. It's not all like that though.

No, I'm guessing that it is much more a phenomenon in the South and Mid-West. The West Coast is too full of weird cults, and I'm guessing the East Coast plus Seattle (based on my viewing of "Frasier" and "The Killing" LOL) are more immune.

I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

If you know any bankers having a party and you can get me an invite, do send it on. If you fancy a night in some shithole in West Cumbria I can certainly pass on a couple of addresses, all you will need is a bottle of white lightening, 40 Lambert and Butler and a hep B jab before you go.

I know where I'd rather be....

The trouble with "come the revolution, comrades" is that it will be the same hooded verminous scum that carried out last years looting, robbing and murdering during the "riots" that will be your Revolutionaries, but "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

When you add into the equation the misselling of pensions scandal, plus the billions now being paid back as part of the "loan insurance" scandal, It's enough to make anyone a communist. My sympathies are 100% with those who peacefully occupied the Square outside St Paul's for months, in protest.

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I think as Brits, living in a largely secular society, we fail to understand the way atheists are marginalised in the States, which is a far more religious society than ours. Hence they get much more aggressive in forums, as they probably feel the world is against them. I've heard them tell it "like it is", and it's jaw-dropping. Much as I love Americans, I could never live in a country where Christian belief is the expected "norm".

I think that's very true. Towards the end of 1981 I was working at Philip Morris in Richmond VA. First day in the lab and doing the introductions when one person expalined where to go in the locality. Shopping mall 3 blocks down, Macdonalds or Burger King there for a meal(sic), cinema complex next door, various bars this way and that and then the church is turn right at the lights. When I explained that I didn't use them it was like being the star attraction in a freak show. "Hey, there's this guy here doesn't go to church". "That's weird". It was most bizarre and like you I find the religious norm (in the parts so inclined) quite a turn-off in a place that is otherwise nice to visit - just couldn't live there. It's not all like that though.

No, I'm guessing that it is much more a phenomenon in the South and Mid-West. The West Coast is too full of weird cults, and I'm guessing the East Coast plus Seattle (based on my viewing of "Frasier" and "The Killing" LOL) are more immune.

I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

If you know any bankers having a party and you can get me an invite, do send it on. If you fancy a night in some shithole in West Cumbria I can certainly pass on a couple of addresses, all you will need is a bottle of white lightening, 40 Lambert and Butler and a hep B jab before you go.

I know where I'd rather be....

The trouble with "come the revolution, comrades" is that it will be the same hooded verminous scum that carried out last years looting, robbing and murdering during the "riots" that will be your Revolutionaries, but "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

When you add into the equation the misselling of pensions scandal, plus the billions now being paid back as part of the "loan insurance" scandal, It's enough to make anyone a communist. My sympathies are 100% with those who peacefully occupied the Square outside St Paul's for months, in protest.

I totally agree Peck, Communism is fantastic, as long as you are a Politburo member of course. I don't think life was a bed of roses for the Russian peasant before or after their Revolution and it certainly got a lot worse under uncle Joe.

There is not a single political system on the planet that creates a totally fair and just society, BUT, the UK's system is up there with the best of them "warts and all"

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I think as Brits, living in a largely secular society, we fail to understand the way atheists are marginalised in the States, which is a far more religious society than ours. Hence they get much more aggressive in forums, as they probably feel the world is against them. I've heard them tell it "like it is", and it's jaw-dropping. Much as I love Americans, I could never live in a country where Christian belief is the expected "norm".

I think that's very true. Towards the end of 1981 I was working at Philip Morris in Richmond VA. First day in the lab and doing the introductions when one person expalined where to go in the locality. Shopping mall 3 blocks down, Macdonalds or Burger King there for a meal(sic), cinema complex next door, various bars this way and that and then the church is turn right at the lights. When I explained that I didn't use them it was like being the star attraction in a freak show. "Hey, there's this guy here doesn't go to church". "That's weird". It was most bizarre and like you I find the religious norm (in the parts so inclined) quite a turn-off in a place that is otherwise nice to visit - just couldn't live there. It's not all like that though.

No, I'm guessing that it is much more a phenomenon in the South and Mid-West. The West Coast is too full of weird cults, and I'm guessing the East Coast plus Seattle (based on my viewing of "Frasier" and "The Killing" LOL) are more immune.

I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

If you know any bankers having a party and you can get me an invite, do send it on. If you fancy a night in some shithole in West Cumbria I can certainly pass on a couple of addresses, all you will need is a bottle of white lightening, 40 Lambert and Butler and a hep B jab before you go.

I know where I'd rather be....

The trouble with "come the revolution, comrades" is that it will be the same hooded verminous scum that carried out last years looting, robbing and murdering during the "riots" that will be your Revolutionaries, but "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

When you add into the equation the misselling of pensions scandal, plus the billions now being paid back as part of the "loan insurance" scandal, It's enough to make anyone a communist. My sympathies are 100% with those who peacefully occupied the Square outside St Paul's for months, in protest.

I totally agree Peck, Communism is fantastic, as long as you are a Politburo member of course. I don't think life was a bed of roses for the Russian peasant before or after their Revolution and it certainly got a lot worse under uncle Joe.

There is not a single political system on the planet that creates a totally fair and just society, BUT, the UK's system is up there with the best of them "warts and all"

Tell that to the disabled person being found "fit for work" and having their benefits stopped, when they are housebound and incontinent, just because of screaming tabloid headlines determining Government policy (oh, and the fact that the disabled are often too ill to stand up for themselves).

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I think as Brits, living in a largely secular society, we fail to understand the way atheists are marginalised in the States, which is a far more religious society than ours. Hence they get much more aggressive in forums, as they probably feel the world is against them. I've heard them tell it "like it is", and it's jaw-dropping. Much as I love Americans, I could never live in a country where Christian belief is the expected "norm".

I think that's very true. Towards the end of 1981 I was working at Philip Morris in Richmond VA. First day in the lab and doing the introductions when one person expalined where to go in the locality. Shopping mall 3 blocks down, Macdonalds or Burger King there for a meal(sic), cinema complex next door, various bars this way and that and then the church is turn right at the lights. When I explained that I didn't use them it was like being the star attraction in a freak show. "Hey, there's this guy here doesn't go to church". "That's weird". It was most bizarre and like you I find the religious norm (in the parts so inclined) quite a turn-off in a place that is otherwise nice to visit - just couldn't live there. It's not all like that though.

No, I'm guessing that it is much more a phenomenon in the South and Mid-West. The West Coast is too full of weird cults, and I'm guessing the East Coast plus Seattle (based on my viewing of "Frasier" and "The Killing" LOL) are more immune.

I have belief because I don't understand the universe.Someone please explain.

I look after my family and just get on with other people.It isn't difficult.

Unfortunately Peter, you, I (and I would hazard a guess everybody else on this forum) are the same, but we are the 10% minority in this country.

The underclass (pondlife if you will) believe in copious amounts of alcohol, Ciggies, drugs, social handouts, free housing and a lack of soap. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. As for getting on with people, well the only "getting on" they can manage is getting on top of the opposite sex to spawn more of the same.

As opposed to the banking class who believe in copious amounts of champagne, cigars, cocaine, state bail-outs, multiple housing, and a lack of ethics. They believe that the god of take what you want, when you want was the creator of all things. Come the revolution, comrades ...

If you know any bankers having a party and you can get me an invite, do send it on. If you fancy a night in some shithole in West Cumbria I can certainly pass on a couple of addresses, all you will need is a bottle of white lightening, 40 Lambert and Butler and a hep B jab before you go.

I know where I'd rather be....

The trouble with "come the revolution, comrades" is that it will be the same hooded verminous scum that carried out last years looting, robbing and murdering during the "riots" that will be your Revolutionaries, but "one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

When you add into the equation the misselling of pensions scandal, plus the billions now being paid back as part of the "loan insurance" scandal, It's enough to make anyone a communist. My sympathies are 100% with those who peacefully occupied the Square outside St Paul's for months, in protest.

I totally agree Peck, Communism is fantastic, as long as you are a Politburo member of course. I don't think life was a bed of roses for the Russian peasant before or after their Revolution and it certainly got a lot worse under uncle Joe.

There is not a single political system on the planet that creates a totally fair and just society, BUT, the UK's system is up there with the best of them "warts and all"

Tell that to the disabled person being found "fit for work" and having their benefits stopped, when they are housebound and incontinent, just because of screaming tabloid headlines determining Government policy (oh, and the fact that the disabled are often too ill to stand up for themselves).

I shouldn't have to tell it to anybody. The disabled person in the most enlightened and technically advanced country in the world (The States in case you are wondering) gets bugger all health care if they haven't paid their private medical insurance, as for benefits I will leave our US members to share that with us but again I suspect they get Billy goats bedding!

We all take far too much for granted in this country, while moaning and whinging about those that have.

I sympathise with anybody that loses out due to new legislation (just like my former colleagues are now getting shafted big style by Ms May) but to think we would be better off with any other political system in place is naive in the extreme. Those in power, be it political power or positions of power in commerce, will always fill their own boots whilst taking the soles from the shoes of the lesser people. People are greedy, selfish and jealous in equal measure. They are in those positions for their own personal benefit, not the benefit of the population as a whole.

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Industry that pays huge bonuses is riddled with worms to the core.

I trained and qualified as a QS being responsible for getting the money in and progressing claims.I'm now self employed but it is difficult.In all walks of life we look over our shoulders at the better off family with the smarter car and prettier wife.

Just get on with it and realise you are not the bottom of the pile with a crack addiction & needles hanging out of your veins.

A buddy of mine is retired on 2/3rds salary does a bit of pottering,paints the house,lunches with his Misses.

I'm frigging not jealous :angry:

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Peck

I realise you may have a few mobility problems...Hang in there Buddy and get your benefits sorted.You are obviously smart enough.

It is always a pleasure to read your comments and gain knowledge.

I have type 2 diabetes and I will live to 110 on a diet of quality food,Cuban cigars and a whiff of falling down juice.

I should be able to sort out a decent annuity :) Plus Mrs Peter is a fox :P

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My wife is from the Philippines so we spend a bit of time there. We don't know we are born in this country compared to how real poor people live. There's no benefits at all and the local hospitals are just somewhere you go to die. Healthcare in general is set up on the US model and can be very good if you can afford it, but on $2 a day you don't get a lot of care. We are lucky because we will live very well there even on just our state pension, somewhere in the top 20%. Just 7 years away unless gov moves it all again :angry:

Anyway only six week until our hols, out there for 4 weeks B)

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Peck

I realise you may have a few mobility problems...Hang in there Buddy and get your benefits sorted.You are obviously smart enough.

It is always a pleasure to read your comments and gain knowledge.

I have type 2 diabetes and I will live to 110 on a diet of quality food,Cuban cigars and a whiff of falling down juice.

I should be able to sort out a decent annuity :)Plus Mrs Peter is a fox :P

Thank you Peter - actually I haven't (yet) lost my benefits as I haven't been "migrated" to the new benefit. However, I do live in a fair amount of anxiety worrying about whether I will receive justice or be one of the many unlucky ones.

Samantha? ;)

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Peck

I realise you may have a few mobility problems...Hang in there Buddy and get your benefits sorted.You are obviously smart enough.

It is always a pleasure to read your comments and gain knowledge.

I have type 2 diabetes and I will live to 110 on a diet of quality food,Cuban cigars and a whiff of falling down juice.

I should be able to sort out a decent annuity :)Plus Mrs Peter is a fox :P

Thank you Peter - actually I haven't (yet) lost my benefits as I haven't been "migrated" to the new benefit. However, I do live in a fair amount of anxiety worrying about whether I will receive justice or be one of the many unlucky ones.

Samantha? ;)

My concern is the changes to the 2nd pension. Having paid into it for the last 40 years I was expecting about another £100 per week. Looks is if that will be cut back to about £40 and the rest given to those who didn't pay into it.

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Peck

I realise you may have a few mobility problems...Hang in there Buddy and get your benefits sorted.You are obviously smart enough.

It is always a pleasure to read your comments and gain knowledge.

I have type 2 diabetes and I will live to 110 on a diet of quality food,Cuban cigars and a whiff of falling down juice.

I should be able to sort out a decent annuity :)Plus Mrs Peter is a fox :P

Thank you Peter - actually I haven't (yet) lost my benefits as I haven't been "migrated" to the new benefit. However, I do live in a fair amount of anxiety worrying about whether I will receive justice or be one of the many unlucky ones.

Samantha? ;)

I have put over 100k in an annuity no more.After seeing those twats reducing payments it is all going on fine wine,champers and a liver transplant(maybe a few farthings). :)

My concern is the changes to the 2nd pension. Having paid into it for the last 40 years I was expecting about another £100 per week. Looks is if that will be cut back to about £40 and the rest given to those who didn't pay into it.

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Peck

I realise you may have a few mobility problems...Hang in there Buddy and get your benefits sorted.You are obviously smart enough.

It is always a pleasure to read your comments and gain knowledge.

I have type 2 diabetes and I will live to 110 on a diet of quality food,Cuban cigars and a whiff of falling down juice.

I should be able to sort out a decent annuity :)Plus Mrs Peter is a fox :P

Thank you Peter - actually I haven't (yet) lost my benefits as I haven't been "migrated" to the new benefit. However, I do live in a fair amount of anxiety worrying about whether I will receive justice or be one of the many unlucky ones.

Samantha? ;)

and I always thought you were Christopher...I've got 3 women in my life but luckily got a tom cat and a male springer(we often pile up on the sofa)with a bag of cheese and onion hula hoops..we also like monster munch.

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Well I'll put my hands up at being an atheist but I do respect others rights to believe in whatever they want, just as long as its not forced onto anyone else, especially the weak and vulnerable. I believe the best road regarding belief or non belief is that whichever path you choose, it should be your own choice and hopefully one you have researched and "learned", as opposed to one that you have been "taught" and never questioned.

In a bit of a contrast to how most atheists are perceived, I do believe you should treat others as you would like to be treated yourself and although I believe I only have one life and when I'm dead that's it, I am not scared of dying. I don't go out partying all the time or robbing or killing other people for my pleasure with the view that I only have one life so I have to "live it to the full".

I would say I am a family man first and foremost, I would stop to help anyone including my neighbors that may need it and believe you shouldn't just take or milk the system, you should work, have goals and strive for what you want and to better yourself. I still have a conscience and would say I am mindful of other peoples feelings.

Epicurus (341–270 B.C.) the Greek philosopher probably best summed up my own thoughts on life centuries ago.

The physical world, he held, was all there was and was composed of differently shaped atoms whose various combinations formed all matter; there were no divine laws or divine rewards or punishments for human actions, and hence no moral codes that human beings were obliged to obey. The only rational goal was to live life as pleasurably as possible.

And yet, Epicurus wrote: “When we say that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice or willful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of revelry, not sexual lust, not the enjoyment of the delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life…

We cannot live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly, nor live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly.”

Edited by Hussulo

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Huss

Come and live next door.

I already keep our postie busy.He signs for me and leaves parcels hidden.I also cause uproar in the village PO...actually my neighbour sells scale trucks and we can close it for a couple of hours :ph34r:

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Huss

Come and live next door.

I already keep our postie busy.He signs for me and leaves parcels hidden.I also cause uproar in the village PO...actually my neighbour sells scale trucks and we can close it for a couple of hours :ph34r:

Sounds good Peter but a couldny leave bonnie Scotland. My postie signs for my stuff too but he nothing has ever gone astray yet, touch wood.

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Well I'll put my hands up at being an atheist but I do respect others rights to believe in whatever they want, just as long as its not forced onto anyone else, especially the weak and vulnerable. I believe the best road regarding belief or non belief is that whichever path you choose, it should be your own choice and hopefully one you have researched and "learned", as opposed to one that you have been "taught" and never questioned.

In a bit of a contrast to how most atheists are perceived, I do believe you should treat others as you would like to be treated yourself and although I believe I only have one life and when I'm dead that's it, I am not scared of dying. I don't go out partying all the time or robbing or killing other people for my pleasure with the view that I only have one life so I have to "live it to the full".

I would say I am a family man first and foremost, I would stop to help anyone including my neighbors that may need it and believe you shouldn't just take or milk the system, you should work, have goals and strive for what you want and to better yourself. I still have a conscience and would say I am mindful of other peoples feelings.

Epicurus (341–270 B.C.) the Greek philosopher probably best summed up my own thoughts on life centuries ago.

The physical world, he held, was all there was and was composed of differently shaped atoms whose various combinations formed all matter; there were no divine laws or divine rewards or punishments for human actions, and hence no moral codes that human beings were obliged to obey. The only rational goal was to live life as pleasurably as possible.

And yet, Epicurus wrote: “When we say that pleasure is the end and aim, we do not mean the pleasures of the prodigal or the pleasures of sensuality, as we are understood to do by some through ignorance, prejudice or willful misrepresentation. By pleasure we mean the absence of pain in the body and of trouble in the soul. It is not an unbroken succession of drinking bouts and of revelry, not sexual lust, not the enjoyment of the delicacies of a luxurious table, which produce a pleasant life…

We cannot live pleasantly without living wisely, honorably, and justly, nor live wisely, honorably, and justly without living pleasantly.â€

Sounds like the Epicureans had more in common with the Stoics than I've thought up till now.

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Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

Absolutely spot on, Peck. The problem with the shooting of Mark Duggan is that the entire proceedings is shrouded in mystery. Was he a gun toting low life chav on his way to despatch a rival gang member, or was he, as you say, an unarmed man who was the victim of a planned police execution ? Who knows ~ in fact we don't know and will have to wait for the inquest conducted by the (apparently) unbiased IPCC.

We do know the police can be trigger happy on occasions and have "accidentally" shot dead innocent men. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de-Menezes spring readily to mind.

You're also right about the banks. I daren't use all the adjectives I'd like to use about them, because Chris would probably (and rightly) ban me. The current austerity is down totally to their greed and profligacy. Nothing to do with Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, everything to do with them. They are the reason the rest of us are suffering from a decreased standard of living, and seeing our incomes squeezed. What's more, as I said a week or two back, not a single word about them paying back what they've shafted the public purse for. I would so like to put Cameron on the spot over the banks and what they owe the British people.

My concern is the changes to the 2nd pension. Having paid into it for the last 40 years I was expecting about another £100 per week. Looks is if that will be cut back to about £40 and the rest given to those who didn't pay into it.

As far as I can tell, those who have paid into the state second pension and its predecessor, SERPS, will not lose out on what they have contributed ~ so they could still end up with quite a bit more than £140 per week. The real winners will be those who are already in a solid occupational pension, who have been contracted out, and who are set to reach state pension age after 2016. They will cream their works pension, and the full £140 per week in one go, having paid nothing into the increase. The ultimate winners will be guys born in most of 1951, all of 1952 and the greater part of 1953, who will be the last to benefit from drawing their (noe enhanced) state pension at age 65.

I know about this because I'm currently engaged in a project about it at work. This is organising a pre-retirement course for older workers. Not sure why they've given it to me, but although slightly incredulous at first, I've actually found the entire subject, extremely interesting and productive of a lot of useful knowledge.

Useful link here

Edited by 1949threepence

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Don't forget that the "riots" began with a family justifiably and peacefully confronting the police over the shooting of an unarmed man. Also don't forget that - horrible though some of the things that happened in the riots were - the bankers before 2008 looted every single one of us with impunity, by creating financial "instruments" designed to profit only a few, and built upon foundations as shaky as the mortgages that underwrote those same instruments. For a more detailed insight into exactly what their game was, you should read Sebastian Faulks' "A Week In December".

Absolutely spot on, Peck. The problem with the shooting of Mark Duggan is that the entire proceedings is shrouded in mystery. Was he a gun toting low life chav on his way to despatch a rival gang member, or was he, as you say, an unarmed man who was the victim of a planned police execution ? Who knows ~ in fact we don't know and will have to wait for the inquest conducted by the (apparently) unbiased IPCC.

We do know the police can be trigger happy on occasions and have "accidentally" shot dead innocent men. Harry Stanley and Jean Charles de-Menezes spring readily to mind.

You're also right about the banks. I daren't use all the adjectives I'd like to use about them, because Chris would probably (and rightly) ban me. The current austerity is down totally to their greed and profligacy. Nothing to do with Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, everything to do with them. They are the reason the rest of us are suffering from a decreased standard of living, and seeing our incomes squeezed. What's more, as I said a week or two back, not a single word about them paying back what they've shafted the public purse for. I would so like to put Cameron on the spot over the banks and what they owe the British people.

My concern is the changes to the 2nd pension. Having paid into it for the last 40 years I was expecting about another £100 per week. Looks is if that will be cut back to about £40 and the rest given to those who didn't pay into it.

As far as I can tell, those who have paid into the state second pension and its predecessor, SERPS, will not lose out on what they have contributed ~ so they could still end up with quite a bit more than £140 per week. The real winners will be those who are already in a solid occupational pension, who have been contracted out, and who are set to reach state pension age after 2016. They will cream their works pension, and the full £140 per week in one go, having paid nothing into the increase. The ultimate winners will be guys born in most of 1951, all of 1952 and the greater part of 1953, who will be the last to benefit from drawing their (noe enhanced) state pension at age 65.

I know about this because I'm currently engaged in a project about it at work. This is organising a pre-retirement course for older workers. Not sure why they've given it to me, but although slightly incredulous at first, I've actually found the entire subject, extremely interesting and productive of a lot of useful knowledge.

Useful link here

Having worked as an armed response officer for 8 years I'll just stop you there.

The former was "bigged up" by witnesses to sound like an IRA terrorist. The mainland was getting hammered at the time. He was challenged by armed officers in the street and reacted by raising the table leg (which was in a bag and reported to police as a sawn off shotgun). I would have dropped him stone cold.

The latter was the subject of a bungled surveillance op and was believed to be a suicide bomber on a packed train with a primed device. The strike team were ORDERED to shoot. I would have taken the shot(s) also because 1 life is definitely worth less than dozens of innocents.

As for Mr Duggan I have no inside knowledge as I am out of the loop now, but "executed"? You need to have a word with yourself Mike. A police firearms officer is faced with split second decisions, life or death ones. I worked on the ethos that the priority was 1) my life, because if I get dropped I cannot protect anybody 2) my colleagues 3) the public and 4) the subject. For a firearms officer to pull the trigger there has to be a genuine or perceived immediate threat to life. There is no shoot to kill, as an AFO you shoot to "stop or incapacitate" the subject. An AFO is also subject to the laws of the land and you always ran the risk of being charged with murder if the wheels came off. Pulling the trigger is the very last thing that any of us wanted to do and it was the very last thing that our training primed us to do.

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You're also right about the banks. I daren't use all the adjectives I'd like to use about them, because Chris would probably (and rightly) ban me. The current austerity is down totally to their greed and profligacy. Nothing to do with Tony Blair or Gordon Brown, everything to do with them. They are the reason the rest of us are suffering from a decreased standard of living, and seeing our incomes squeezed. What's more, as I said a week or two back, not a single word about them paying back what they've shafted the public purse for. I would so like to put Cameron on the spot over the banks and what they owe the British people.

Oh that it was so simple.

The current cutback on public spending is b****r all to do with the banks, but a rebalancing of the state's expenditure. When Brown was Chancellor, he presided over a state spending plan that raised 44% less in tax than he spent over a five year period. This he called prudence. Heaven knows what he would have done had he decided to be imprudent in his eyes, but I suggest the lights would already have gone out. Any Chancellor has to balance the books over the period of a parliament or at least have a plan to do so if the policies are to have any credibility. Failure to do so without a rigged voting system ensuring 5 more years in advance means the government of the day can spend as much as it likes giving lots of freebies to the voter without being held to account and having to rectify the s**t it leaves for the next election victor. Politicians being self-congratulatory animals only want public endorsement of their policies. Playing Father Christmas is the easiest way to win the appoval of Mr Average UK who is on the whole pretty thick when it comes to the wider picture.

Rhetorical question, but why do people who are rational and live within their means as far as their own household is concerned suddenly throw financial common sense out of the window when it comes to public expenditure. The clarion calls of "Tax the rich" will always appeal to the have nots and many of those on the left, but sequesting the assets of those who on the whole are the main generators of business wealth is not the right way to go about it. Until the left learns to back business and the creation of private wealth generated through exporting this country's products to foreigners, this country is on a hiding to nothing. Yes, that means acknowledging that profit must not be a dirty word. There is no such thing as a free lunch and so if you want benefits for the citizens of this country, then come up with a sustainable plan for them whereby funding is supplied by taxing the profits of ongoing trade surplusses with A, B & C. If this country is in the s**t, then s**t we need to export until the level is low enough to keep our heads above water.

The banks may have lent irresponsibly to developers and whatever, but the biggest problems are going to be sovereign loans. Countries borrow on many multiples of the loans even to large multi-nationals. The only problem is that politicians spend most of their time and government income bribing their electorates to ensure a further ride on the gravy train. This is typically presented as "investment", but is rarely is applied to projects involving private enterprises exporting goods to others, rather it is a way of ensuring that your mates are looked after at the expense of the taxpayer. You can build roads, railways, runways and other infrastructure projects all you like, but none of these will generate income from exports. We need to make the pots and pans that are currently imported. Replace imports with home produced goods. Export the same if you can. When governments are forced to take steps to balance the books they introduce unpopular plans by removing the free lunch, get voted out, and the whole unhappy cycle starts all over again. We've seen it year-in, year-out in Europe. Maximum deficit levels which are broken year after year on the grounds that this year, last year and every year for the forseeable future is/was/will be an exceptional year meaning the rules can be broken ad-infinitum. Until the west gets a real bloody nose to awaken it from the cozy existence it has embraced for the last 60 years, the penny won't drop. If people want social benefits, then set up an industrial and fiscal structure that will deliver year on year rather than introducing things by popular demand without giving due thought to funding. You cannot have a balanced economy based on spending money you neither have, nor are willing to generate. Unless Johnny Foreigner buys the goods and services of this country, people had better scale back their visions of the ongoing free lunch. The biggest danger in the current setup are the politicans who would rarely put country before party re-election - not the banks.

Rant over.

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Whilst we are all bearing our souls, I am also an atheist, and as Huss says I also offer no ill feelings to those who hold religious beliefs. For me the problem comes when an individuals religious beliefs affect the lives of others.

In relation to the riots, whilst the initial trigger may have been the shooting, if you think the vast majority of those involved in the riots that followed, were even remotely interested in that incident you would be sadly mistaken. Opportunistic theives running amongst the community was the case for the vast majority. The shooting certainly gave them an excuse when caught, similar to the excuse that they were taking from the capitalistic companies who had made their lives misery.

Peck I am involved in building control as my day career, and have seen countless changes to buildings and their management to accommodate disabled persons and make buildings and their facilities more accessible. Whilst I appreciate that this is an emotive subject, and there will inevitably be those who may not be able to work due to their individual disabilities and requirements, there are now certainly opportunities out there in accessible buildings which may have not been present even 5 years ago, and therefore claimants should be tested on a regular basis to determine whether they can join the working population. There will always be those genuine people who lose out in any benefits system, and those who get away with entitlements to which they should not be eligible. I just would not advocate an individuals rights to life long benefits without routine re-assessment in what is an ever changing society.

As for the shootings, I completely agree with John on this, a very tough split decision has to be made, and I have no doubt if someone I knew was on the receiving end of a wrongful shooting I would be outraged and upset. With the Jean Charles de-Menezes incident if officers had not decided to act and the threat would have been real they would have been subject to public outrage for not acting in the same situation. Damned if they do, damend if they don't!! There is no simple solution to violent crime and by arming police officers mistakes will be made, the same as they will in all other aspects of life, but they should be kept to a minimum and investigated to ensure "lessons are learnt"....my most hated phrase at the moment, spouted by every politician when they cock something else up :angry::D

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