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Northumberland Shilling 1763 from Australia

42 posts in this topic

Sold in Australia Ebay 3306 7947 4782, I kept photo of this,

and on reading through the forums, it seems to be the one " Paulus "

wrote about buying on 03/02/2012. I'm concerned as it seems to have

many of the faults the fakes have, though I cannot see the < shape

scratches coming from the Kings mouth ( though they could have been

erased )Hope " Paulus " has not bought a duff one ? Interested in

what others think. It has all the tops of lettering missing in

GEORGIVS like my fake, the DNW fake and the Baldwin fake.. brought up

in previous posts.

post-6970-003946900 1329398666_thumb.jpg

post-6970-059455300 1329398684_thumb.jpg

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Coins 728x90

Run, Forrest, Run!

These are all fakes until PROVEN otherwise...

It does not look bad, but these have been faked ad infinitum.

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Sold in Australia Ebay 3306 7947 4782, I kept photo of this,

and on reading through the forums, it seems to be the one " Paulus "

wrote about buying on 03/02/2012. I'm concerned as it seems to have

many of the faults the fakes have, though I cannot see the < shape

scratches coming from the Kings mouth ( though they could have been

erased )Hope " Paulus " has not bought a duff one ? Interested in

what others think. It has all the tops of lettering missing in

GEORGIVS like my fake, the DNW fake and the Baldwin fake.. brought up

in previous posts.

Although this is not my area I have seen many of these Northumberland 'fakes' and this looks like it may qualify as one, just going by the look of it would put me off. I'm sure the knowing members on here will clarify it. There always seems to be one for sale on the bay!! I think it must have been a mass production at one time for our far east friends!!!

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Just looking at the pucture, it just dies'nt look right, it has a cast look about it. Enlarging the picture it looks very pourous also

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The tops of the letters are often weak on the reverse and not indicative of authenticity per se.

I did say on the acquisition page that the Chinese copies were getting better. I know it was rather flippant but I did not like the look of the coin when I saw it there.

The surface looks "washed out" or "soapy" for want of a better phrase, the toning/discolouration is random without any uniformity (which is a common way for the forger to try to age something) and the whole appearance is weak overall.

Anybody buying a 1763 should be slightly wary of any coin that is not EF or better (most turn up in the higher grades) and should most definitely steer well clear of ebay.

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The tops of the letters are often weak on the reverse and not indicative of authenticity per se.

I did say on the acquisition page that the Chinese copies were getting better. I know it was rather flippant but I did not like the look of the coin when I saw it there.

The surface looks "washed out" or "soapy" for want of a better phrase, the toning/discolouration is random without any uniformity (which is a common way for the forger to try to age something) and the whole appearance is weak overall.

Anybody buying a 1763 should be slightly wary of any coin that is not EF or better (most turn up in the higher grades) and should most definitely steer well clear of ebay.

After reading the forum a while back about Northumberland shillings it is one coin I would leave well alone unless buying from a reputable dealer or a coin slabbed by a top grading company.John is right the Chinese have been doing this one for a while.Ebay...you must be joking. :unsure:

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1763rev.jpg

1763obv.jpg

Here is a genuine one that I sold last year for comparison.

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I took my Northumberland shilling to Downies in Melbourne today, who auctioned it to my seller in October 2011. The auctioneer I saw had 'no doubt' that it was genuine, but worryingly stated that Chinese forgeries would be a much higher grade!! Sounded very naive to me.

Anyway, after I left them he contacted the guy who auctioned it and emailed me as below:

Hello Paul,

I just spoke to the original owner of the Northumberland Shilling. This is his response, for what it’s worth.

He said he has owned it for years. So long, in fact, that he can’t remember exactly how long. I asked him did he purchase it in the last 12 months, and in particular, on the internet? He said definitely not, it was part of his English collection which he has been selling off for several years. The Northumberland has been in his collection for quite a long time and he only sold it through our auction after he managed to acquire a better one.

We’ve been dealing with this man for a number of years and I believe he would have truthfully told us if he had bought it recently from a dubious source. We have always found him to be an honest and genuine client who I know would not want a fellow collector to be deceived by a coin he had sold.

Once again, please seek opinions on the coin from your local dealers and if you have any further concerns please seek to have it authenticated through the IBSCC (International Bureau for the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins) a division of IAPN.

http://www.iapn-coins.org/

Regards,

John Freestone

Australian Coin Auctions

Ph: +61 3 8677-8800

Fx: +61 3 8677-8899

Email: auctions@downies.com

Web: www.downies.com

Has anyone used IBSCC or know much about them?

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Does anyone know where I can find the post that contains the excellent pics/report about Chinese copying, I have searched to no avail? I promised I would get it to Downies ...

AdThanksVance

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Hello Paulus you need to go to bottom of this entire page..

then click on..Click here to show filter options..select "ALL"

I started post 28th October 2011 and Asda last answered 7th

November..Some photos there... i think yours looks wrong and

very close to mine, I got stung on on Ebay. I should try

sending photo of yours to BNTA..or maybe Spink or Baldwin

Ive found them very helpful in the past, but some other " top "

names I've found just ignor any questions about fakes. On another

forum I got warned off and my post removed just because I said

Spinks and Baldwins were very helpful but others just ignored

me ( I did not mention any names !!)To me it seems some want to

hush up things about fakes !!

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" Debbie " beat me to it with the posting details.. Just one other thing. I mentioned

the tops of letters in GEORGIVS being missing and this does happen on genuine ones

BUT, the FAKES I've seen have a missing part on the top of the SECOND "G" and I dont

think I can find a photo anywhere of a known genuine one with the second G problem ?

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" Debbie " beat me to it with the posting details.. Just one other thing. I mentioned

the tops of letters in GEORGIVS being missing and this does happen on genuine ones

BUT, the FAKES I've seen have a missing part on the top of the SECOND "G" and I dont

think I can find a photo anywhere of a known genuine one with the second G problem ?

That's an excellent but worrying post, but the one I am after has pictures and a report about the actual places in China where they mass-produce copies, sell them as copies, and then these get sold on as genuine ... anyone know the post I mean?

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" Debbie " beat me to it with the posting details.. Just one other thing. I mentioned

the tops of letters in GEORGIVS being missing and this does happen on genuine ones

BUT, the FAKES I've seen have a missing part on the top of the SECOND "G" and I dont

think I can find a photo anywhere of a known genuine one with the second G problem ?

That's an excellent but worrying post, but the one I am after has pictures and a report about the actual places in China where they mass-produce copies, sell them as copies, and then these get sold on as genuine ... anyone know the post I mean?

Here is yet another one for sale on eBay, with a broken second "G":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200706252268?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

In this case, Rob I think said it was fine and the seller was sound (correct me if I'm wrong Rob?)

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Here is yet another one for sale on eBay, with a broken second "G":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200706252268?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

In this case, Rob I think said it was fine and the seller was sound (correct me if I'm wrong Rob?)

I can definitely vouch for the seller. Martin's a top gentleman.

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Here is yet another one for sale on eBay, with a broken second "G":

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/200706252268?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2648

In this case, Rob I think said it was fine and the seller was sound (correct me if I'm wrong Rob?)

I can definitely vouch for the seller. Martin's a top gentleman.

The edge knock on the reverse (previously mentioned in a post positioned @ 7 o'clock)above the m (just after the date)is there.So many "experts" are oblivious to fakes which seem to be passed down the line as genuine.

I think there is room in the market for a book on fakes and what to look out for.I understand there is a lot of hammered gold fakes,sovereigns,northumberland 1/-'s,1905 2/6,Ashmore,1822 Crowns,Anne 1/4d's,Charles 1 1/-,Bun head 2/6's etc & many foreign coins.

Contemporary fakes have their place in the hobby.But modern fakes made to scam the collector!!! :angry:

I also have been made aware there is quite an industry in Bulgaria making Roman Coins.

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

Edited by Nick

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear.

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I don't know much about fakes, but one thing that concerns me is the number of genuine coins that will sooner or later over the years come to be classififed as possible fakes and then in order to ensure sellers do not soil their reputations become definite fakes, is it going to become a case of only those currently held in collections of the elite collectors as I call them will become the only genuine coins about at the cost of all others.

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

Thanks Nick

Here are all the pictures I have with me, I may be able to take some alternative/better ones when I return home in a week or so:

1763_Shilling_Rev01.png

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

Thanks Nick

Here is another picture I have with me that no-one else has seen yet, I may be able to take some alternative/better ones when I return home in a week or so:

1763_Shilling_Rev01.png

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear.

This is a bit of a nightmare isn't it ... Downies stated 2 or 3 times that if I obtain a certificate that it is a copy, from IBSCC, within 12 months even, they will refund the seller who should refund me etc etc

So, has anyone tried/heard of IBSCC (see email from Downies above)? To be honest I'm no longer sure that if they passed it as genuine I would be satisfied!

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear.

This is a bit of a nightmare isn't it ... Downies stated 2 or 3 times that if I obtain a certificate that it is a copy, from IBSCC, within 12 months even, they will refund the seller who should refund me etc etc

So, has anyone tried/heard of IBSCC (see email from Downies above)? To be honest I'm no longer sure that if they passed it as genuine I would be satisfied!

International Bureau of the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins

http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223

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Do you have any better pictures of the coin in question? From the lowish grade pictures I've seen, it does appear to share a number of scratches/bagmarks that were identified last time fake Northumberland shillings were discussed.

I agree it looks like a fake which has been accepted into the market and retailed by an honest dealer.Oh dear.

This is a bit of a nightmare isn't it ... Downies stated 2 or 3 times that if I obtain a certificate that it is a copy, from IBSCC, within 12 months even, they will refund the seller who should refund me etc etc

So, has anyone tried/heard of IBSCC (see email from Downies above)? To be honest I'm no longer sure that if they passed it as genuine I would be satisfied!

International Bureau of the Suppression of Counterfeit Coins

http://www.coinscatalog.com/forums/showthread.php?t=223

Thanks Garry

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