Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

seuk

George IV Crown - Chinese fakes

Recommended Posts

Another modern 1822 crown fake. Looks poorly cast and have milled edge. 38.2 mm - 26.0 gr.

post-6657-058097300 1345936370_thumb.jpg

While the Chinese (that I've seen) are smaller 37.4 mm, have plain edge and weights only 21.5 to 22.0 gr.

Many thanks for the update seuk!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks Seuk, they will catch one or two out on eBay (before delivery, at least)! Wouldn't it be great if these kind of 'arrivals' were met with a wall of resistance? Namely, that anytime anyone spotted one of these coins, as identified by your research, they did kindly send a copy-and-paste of the facts for the porentially fooled's judgement. I remember someone doing this for me once (thankyou swissnome [something like that] whomever you are). It would make these things less commercially viable at source if there existed an honourable and reactive/proactive SWAT team! I for myself will use your observations to warn others (should I notice any falling foul)...if you don't mind, that is?

What about, as a start, an eBay account, centrally held by a forum such as this, which provided nothing other than a service to those who are not spotting those individuals who are scamming...maybe even a direct and respected link to eBay central, possibly, that highlights these individuals, without being directly involved, for 'listing extermination'! I think, the message would soon get out there...I presume eBay is where these type of coins would be headed?

Many thanks,

Stuart

Back in 't' old days' ie 10 years ago before ebay got this daft idea about 'security' bidders could be identified from a listing. If there was something dodgy about a seller you could send a message to the bidders, or tell at a glance if the same member kept bidding on someone's items and never winning. I met two collectors who taught me (almost!) all I know through ebay and it worked well as a community.

Then someone started a scam messaging underbidders and offering them the item, which of course the messager didn't have and instead of using paypal and banning those responsible ebay made it impossible for anyone to identify bidders and hence to report the bad guys. It was like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

The problem with ebay is that they are scared of lawsuits from big manufacturers so any hint of fake Gucci or Levis and they will act. But coins .. they have no expertise and as most of the time nothing happens, they do nowt. If buyers started to sue ebay for assisting fraudulent activities, things might change, but ..

And as for warnings, I guess one way would be to copy the technique of an Ameican medal expert. He has a listing on ebay for one of the medals most commonly sold as a copy for a high price as a buy it now. When you read it it isn't a sale listing but a guide to spotting fakes and a warning. Whether his reputation means ebay allows him to do this or it doesn't care but it must be one of the only listings left on ebay.com that says 'fake' in the title!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Thursday, December 01, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Peter said:

If the Chinese tightened their ship and produced products equal to the standards required we would have more of a problem.As it is we still have choices and I will go for UK products whenever possible.

I was aghast when I found out Dr Marten boots/shoes were now made in China.A bit of searching and a company from Northampton (Solovair) makes the same boot (without the DM logo).They used to make the soles for the UK D.M's.

My wife has got me a pair for Xmas....as I relive my youth ;)

My eldest daughter is still after a coloured pair of DM's though...listen Solovair...with proper marketing and advertising you could take this market.

18 holers i presume?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is an idea...maybe not a good one. ...but it may help those of us who buy from ebay from getting ripped off. Why don,t you start a link on here with members reporting fake coins being sold on ebay, on auction, with pictures if possible. Then all us members can bombard the seller with questions about the authenticity of the coin. These enquiries show up on their listing and may make the unsuspecting buyer wary about buying it. Then one of us many members, like a syndicate, can outbid whoever is buying it, then cancel the sale because you realised it was a fake. The seller will have no other option than to cancel the sale as he has already had numerous enquiries stating it was fake. Cannot see him running to ebay complaining. It certainly would clean up ebay. As I said...just an idea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, declan03 said:

Here is an idea...maybe not a good one. ...but it may help those of us who buy from ebay from getting ripped off. Why don,t you start a link on here with members reporting fake coins being sold on ebay, on auction, with pictures if possible. Then all us members can bombard the seller with questions about the authenticity of the coin. These enquiries show up on their listing and may make the unsuspecting buyer wary about buying it. Then one of us many members, like a syndicate, can outbid whoever is buying it, then cancel the sale because you realised it was a fake. The seller will have no other option than to cancel the sale as he has already had numerous enquiries stating it was fake. Cannot see him running to ebay complaining. It certainly would clean up ebay. As I said...just an idea.

Quote

These enquiries show up on their listing and may make the unsuspecting buyer wary about buying it.

Good idea, but a seller has the choice about whether to publish enquiries on their listing or not - it is not automatic, so unfortunately a dodgy seller won't of course pay any attention to such queries.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, declan03 said:

Here is an idea...maybe not a good one. ...but it may help those of us who buy from ebay from getting ripped off. Why don,t you start a link on here with members reporting fake coins being sold on ebay, on auction, with pictures if possible. Then all us members can bombard the seller with questions about the authenticity of the coin. These enquiries show up on their listing and may make the unsuspecting buyer wary about buying it. Then one of us many members, like a syndicate, can outbid whoever is buying it, then cancel the sale because you realised it was a fake. The seller will have no other option than to cancel the sale as he has already had numerous enquiries stating it was fake. Cannot see him running to ebay complaining. It certainly would clean up ebay. As I said...just an idea.

Why not look to buy from places other than eBay? Sure eBay is convenient, but they wash their hands when it comes to dodgy listings, preferring instead to just take their cut and ensure the business is satisfying their shareholders. They are both judge and jury, so any dispute will end in their favour.

If you recognise there is a problem and have an issue with them, it's incumbent on you to alleviate your problems. You can only change your side, you will not change anything within eBay. Part of this is not throwing good money after bad. This forum is regularly asked if a purchase was a good one after the event. The principle of caveat emptor should rule. Do your homework in advance. Virtually nothing for sale is a one-off lifetime changing purchase. There is far too much reliance on others and their opinions, with taking responsibility for one's own action a distant last.

There is little point in 'bombarding' the seller with questions - all he has to do is ignore them. If you know something is wrong, don't buy it and report it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

eBay is OK for cheap pieces, unless the seller is a proper reputable dealer. There is just too much risk buying a coin from photographs, even if you are an expert on a particular series you need to have the coin in hand to tell.

We are all at first obsessed with grabbing 'bargains' but these do not exist - unnoticed and latent defects do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I,ve been a bit lucky then. I buy milled and early milled coins. I purchase about 90% of my coins from ebay for resale and made a profit from most of them, about 80% of them and a small loss on the rest. Some of them over 100% profit, so sorry Leo there are bargains to be had everyday if you know what your looking for.  I,ve only just purchased an 1872 Queen Victoria florin from ebay which cost me £74 in total. I guarantee you i will make money on it. 

I,ve fortunately only inadvertently purchased four fake coins from over 3000 purchases on ebay that i know of. Them being as follows:

1713 Queen Anne crown. 1874 florin. 1935 crown and a Charles 1st shilling.  All of which ebay refunded me for.

My motto was before i found this forum last month, was if it didn't look right don't touch it and its served me well, but we all make mistakes.  But having the forum here its always good to get a 2nd opinion when needed, as when i purchased the Charles 1st shilling, (of which i am new to collecting) which did not feel quite right to me and due to diligent nembers i was told it was a copy and i was able to return it for a refund. Thanks again to all who helped with that.

If it was not for reliance and opinions of other people Rob, what is the point of having a forum? And who mentioned one off lifetime changing purchases. Whats that all about?? I,m only looking to make a couple of quid profit on any purchases to invest in my own collection. I,m sure we all do our homework but if we are not 100% sure its always reassuring to get a 2nd opinion.

Regards. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, declan03 said:

I,ve been a bit lucky then. I buy milled and early milled coins. I purchase about 90% of my coins from ebay for resale and made a profit from most of them, about 80% of them and a small loss on the rest. Some of them over 100% profit, so sorry Leo there are bargains to be had everyday if you know what your looking for.  I,ve only just purchased an 1872 Queen Victoria florin from ebay which cost me £74 in total. I guarantee you i will make money on it. 

I,ve fortunately only inadvertently purchased four fake coins from over 3000 purchases on ebay that i know of. Them being as follows:

1713 Queen Anne crown. 1874 florin. 1935 crown and a Charles 1st shilling.  All of which ebay refunded me for.

My motto was before i found this forum last month, was if it didn't look right don't touch it and its served me well, but we all make mistakes.  But having the forum here its always good to get a 2nd opinion when needed, as when i purchased the Charles 1st shilling, (of which i am new to collecting) which did not feel quite right to me and due to diligent nembers i was told it was a copy and i was able to return it for a refund. Thanks again to all who helped with that.

If it was not for reliance and opinions of other people Rob, what is the point of having a forum? And who mentioned one off lifetime changing purchases. Whats that all about?? I,m only looking to make a couple of quid profit on any purchases to invest in my own collection. I,m sure we all do our homework but if we are not 100% sure its always reassuring to get a 2nd opinion.

Regards. 

 

Rob, like me, will get multiple queries a week from ebayers and other MOP's asking if coins are real and what they're worth. I assume (dangerous as that makes ass out of u and me) that Rob, like me, gets totally pissed off with it. We learnt the hard way and the expensive way. We made mistakes and then we taught ourselves with the help of others and at substantial personal cost by buying more books than coins. My own reference library runs into the Thousands of Pounds, Rob has an even larger library than me! Giving advice on here to fellow collectors is okay but giving advice for other people to profit from is a bit like asking your local plumber to fit your heating for free as you support the same team as him?

One off life changing purchases is obviously a reference to the fact that there are very few purchases you will miss by not being clued up that will not come around again.

You come across as both offended and slightly offensive, chill out, it's supposed to be a hobby and hobbies are supposed to be fun ;-) 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the thing Argentumancoins is, i never asked Rob for advice on any coin for me  to make a profit from. I,m perfectly capable of that myself. I only put forward an idea to help people from being ripped of from ebay, following on from Toms thread.

Yes i am ever so slightly offended. I never came on here to be chastised like some naughty schoolkid who has not done their homework. Trust me, i put a lot of time and effort into online searches about coins i am unsure of, granted there were a couple i came up with nothing and as such i used the forum as a last resort. Sorry we cannot all afford to plough thousands of pounds into coin books, personally i would rather buy coins with my money, but thats why you are the experts and as such you are able to help with any questions. If you feel the need to be "pissed off" at any questions i may have in the future, simple,  please don,t put your tuppence worth in and keep your opinions to yourself.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, declan03 said:

But the thing Argentumancoins is, i never asked Rob for advice on any coin for me  to make a profit from. I,m perfectly capable of that myself. I only put forward an idea to help people from being ripped of from ebay, following on from Toms thread.

Yes i am ever so slightly offended. I never came on here to be chastised like some naughty schoolkid who has not done their homework. Trust me, i put a lot of time and effort into online searches about coins i am unsure of, granted there were a couple i came up with nothing and as such i used the forum as a last resort. Sorry we cannot all afford to plough thousands of pounds into coin books, personally i would rather buy coins with my money, but thats why you are the experts and as such you are able to help with any questions. If you feel the need to be "pissed off" at any questions i may have in the future, simple,  please don,t put your tuppence worth in and keep your opinions to yourself.

 

Do you really need to take everything so personally? I made sweeping comments and you assume they relate to you (they didn't). 

As I said, chill out, it's a hobby. Less stress makes for a longer life.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, declan03 said:

But the thing Argentumancoins is, i never asked Rob for advice on any coin for me  to make a profit from. I,m perfectly capable of that myself. I only put forward an idea to help people from being ripped of from ebay, following on from Toms thread.

Yes i am ever so slightly offended. I never came on here to be chastised like some naughty schoolkid who has not done their homework. Trust me, i put a lot of time and effort into online searches about coins i am unsure of, granted there were a couple i came up with nothing and as such i used the forum as a last resort. Sorry we cannot all afford to plough thousands of pounds into coin books, personally i would rather buy coins with my money, but thats why you are the experts and as such you are able to help with any questions. If you feel the need to be "pissed off" at any questions i may have in the future, simple,  please don,t put your tuppence worth in and keep your opinions to yourself.

 

Books don't cost thousands, but there is an age old adage around coin collecting, buy the book before the coin......Nice post though, for someone who seems to be doing lots of eBay business, you should maybe consider some books........P.s, there is a pinned thread for fakes, there's also a thread on eBay which generally flags up fakes also, you should maybe scour those threads before making another or else the good stuff gets buried away. Seuk is also a go to guy on fakes, he also has a website on the subject matter

Just curious though, how do you know exactly that none of your eBay coins haven't been fakes, do you test them or are you an expert? You could have unwittingly passed more off than you actually realise.

The other thing i took from your post was that you buy to sell to buy (making a "couple of quid profit") not sure but all that work and effort for a "couple of quid profit" wouldn't it be better spent, and your money, just buying the right coin straight off the bat for you collection?

Edited by azda

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would not claim that i am an expert Azda (i wish) or i wouldn't be buying/selling coins for a small profit on ebay, i would be working for one of the larger auction houses instead.

I only started collecting/buying/selling milled coins 3 or 4 years ago and have learned some things through the internet etc, about what coins to stay away from, as i do my homework first, before purchasing a coin. I love reading about the history of coins and of the Kings and Queens who reigned at the time. I never was one for history at school so if nothing else it has piqued my interet in this subject. Granted, i have inadvertently purchased 3 or 4 fakes over the years, but on receiving them i realised this and sent them back, but i,m sure we all make mistakes now and again and trust people too much.

To answer your questions about how do i know a coin is not a fake. First as i said, i will do extensive searches first on the internet if i suspect a coin is a fake or copy  before i purchase it,  although it would be easier to ask an expert on here and save an awful lot of time and effort, but some people  seem to be of the opinion, its my info, i,ve done the homework, buy your own books and check it yourself, which now makes me dubious about asking. Although most of the guys i,ve met have been terrific with their help i may add. On receiving any coin i first have a good look at it. I then weigh it and check the size of it, listen to the noise it makes, even smell it, as circulated coins have a certain smell when held in your hand for a wee bit. Then as a final option i found this site a few weeks ago which was  a great help with my latest venture of collecting  hammered coins, not for resale i may add.  If i am uncertain at all i will return a coin, though this rarely happens, ebay is not as bad as people make out, its just the odd few that give it a bad name. There are other places i find that i find just as bad ir worse. For instance,  one of the biggest auction houses which i,ve bought my coins from, where all their coins  are photoshopped to make them look like they all have the same appearance, these are the ones i,ve been lucky to break even with. But whose going to argue and ask for a return with a big company like that when some of the coins look totally awful in hand? Surely thats as crooked as the few fakes being sold on ebay, amazon etc...

Its possible Azda that i,ve inadvertently sold a fake coin which i,ve purchased for resale . But i can safely say i have never had anyone contacting me saying a coin i have listed, looks like or is a fake, which i hope they would, then i can withdraw it from sale and learn from my mistakes. Out of over 3000 sales i have 100% feedback so i must be doing something right. From any profit from these sales i plough it all back into my collection, which i would now put a value of at least 20k on the milled coins which keep getting better quality . I started off with about a £200 pot and some poor pennies/halfpennies.  This is why i don't  use my own money, its because i enjoy buying/selling and collecting coins at no cost to myself. I enjoy the buzz of the online live auctions and picking up a bargain, of which i will make a profit on about 80% of the coins i purchase. There's not as much work and effort required as you think. Sometimes its a case of in one door and out the other. I,ve no particular choice of coin that i am after for my milled coin collection, even though they're for sale its still a collection, i just buy whatever comes along at the right price.

Seuk has helped me out greatly on a couple of matters. It would be great to look through  his/hers website. Do you know the name of it? Can you recommend any books on fake british milled coins and hammered coins?

Thanks and regards.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I own an awlful lot of books but none about fakes. It seems to be an area that's not written about much apart from contemporary coins like evasion coins. There is websites listing known fakes and showing you what to look out for. 

You just pick it up as you handle and view coins. You can instinctively tell if they are pewter or iffy. I rarely buy expensive coins but if i do they are weighed and measured after purchase. I've been stung a few times with Roman coins (duponduis) but i knew as soon as they where in my hand they were bad.

At the moment this austerity business is driving normal law abiding people to commit frauds especially on eBay. Its not just coins either , i am seeing lots of fresh flint items being sold as prehistoric some have been soaked in drain unblocker to falsely age them even. Shot putts and mill balls being passed off as Cannonball. Again if you handle stuff like that regularly or find it you get a feel for it and instinctively you know if its not right. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As the saying goes "Good Judgement comes from experience. And experience? Well that comes from bad judgment".

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi Ukstu.

Thanks for your valued info. I hope i can at least tell genuine millled coins by now. Its the hammered coins which i started collecting this year that i am not at all sure about. I do like the look of them in my collection, i have only about a dozen so far. Not really expensive coins, ranging from £20 to my most recent and nicest coin at £150 which is a Charles 1st halfcrown and has centre stage in my collection of hammered coins. As for Roman coins. ...that is totally different territory and i would not venture into collecting them. Those coins really look a minefield for forgeries unless perhaps you are dealing directly with a reputable auction house, even then by all accounts the forgeries are that good the auctioneers have been fooled on occasion.  Its sad really as it will put future generations off coin collecting.

Would you believe i have a link to a roman coin forgery discussion page, but i cannot find a milled coin forgery page. Have you a link to the one you mentioned? 

Thanks again and regards.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why i don't bother with Roman coins. It is a minefield agreed. I haven't encountered any fake hammered as such other than the pewter novelty replicas and they are easy to spot even without the copy or WRL stamps just by the way they look. That soapy look as they call it , i can spot them a mile off. Have a look at some here to familiarise yourself with them. I've even bought a few to get a proper look and feel for them then gave them my kids.

http://www.museumreproductions.co.uk/shop/category.php

Here is some links that may be of interest too you. Its also useful to look at some of the coins people list as fake on some forums. There is many documented on previous posts on predecimal. If you have your suspicions that a coin may be fake a simple google search using fake 1855 half crown as an example will pull up lots of results from forums showing images of such examples. Its hit and miss but you can search through most and pick out the useful ones. You find the weights and measurements of most coins online using Google. I find the PAS website useful for getting weights and sizes of hammered coins.  Hope this helps. 

http://www.calgarycoin.com/reference/fakes/fakeswebsites.htm

http://www.psdetecting.com/Forgeries-Page.html

Edited by Ukstu
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks.

These are very interesting links which i will bookmark. Gave me a good browsing session last night. Good to see though that at least one site actually marks on the coin that its a copy. I gather there is no law against producing and selling replica coins without them being stamped. I know there were  a few fake Victoria halfcrowns turning up on ebay. They looked very convincing. I should have purchased one just to familiarise myself with them. As you said, if i am not sure i can put in a search for a coin in the forum.

Thanks again for your time and advice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, declan03 said:

Thanks.

These are very interesting links which i will bookmark. Gave me a good browsing session last night. Good to see though that at least one site actually marks on the coin that its a copy. I gather there is no law against producing and selling replica coins without them being stamped. I know there were  a few fake Victoria halfcrowns turning up on ebay. They looked very convincing. I should have purchased one just to familiarise myself with them. As you said, if i am not sure i can put in a search for a coin in the forum.

Thanks again for your time and advice.

Your welcome. If you need any advice on hammereds just pm me on here. Glad to help out. Stu. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

See my weekly GENUINE contemporary circulating counterfeits from my upcoming book via Amazon Books "Forgotten Coins." EBAY Seller: johnmenc

 

John Lorenzo

United States

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×