Written to make your blood boil

[petitioncrown 4]

Realistically nobody likes change; in most cases people resist change. The slabbing, putting in plastic, grading whatever raises many individual blood pressure! Why should this bother you?

The move to the sale of coins from the dealer to the auction house, why should this concern us?

In the US and Europe the dealer works in harmony with the auction houses, dealers support the hobby by investing into stocks, is this missing in the UK? Is this a weak link in the UK?

Outside the UK the internet is embraced and used as an information tool, updating of prices, knowledge transfer, a dealer transparency tool, the internet assisted Heritage have an auction company that grows from strength to strength. Every few months new marketing and creative offers keep being created.

What do we gain by hiding collections? There have been many emails and advice that if you show your collection either on the internet or in a catalogue you will sell your collection for less money.

Oooooops what happened? I thought it was a hobby; maybe there I a growing number who are investors or why should it concern you if a coin fetched less because it was seen publicly?

I hope I boil your blood!

[Peter 615]

I collect for me...is that wrong?

I love a bargain like anyone else but who will give me £90 for nvf 2 pronged 1840 1/4d when Spink don't acknowledge it.I get my pleasure from a rummage at the Midland coin fair...a look at my collection(of which I try to improve)and my reference books and internet.I would love a 150k coin but would have to put it under my pillow.I'm content with my dog at my feet.A steak and glass of red on a Saturday and a browse of the internet.My hobby isn't expensive and when I go up in flames I will leave a few trays with references that only a few will understand.

[Gary D 76]

Realistically nobody likes change; in most cases people resist change. The slabbing, putting in plastic, grading whatever raises many individual blood pressure! Why should this bother you?

The move to the sale of coins from the dealer to the auction house, why should this concern us?

In the US and Europe the dealer works in harmony with the auction houses, dealers support the hobby by investing into stocks, is this missing in the UK? Is this a weak link in the UK?

Outside the UK the internet is embraced and used as an information tool, updating of prices, knowledge transfer, a dealer transparency tool, the internet assisted Heritage have an auction company that grows from strength to strength. Every few months new marketing and creative offers keep being created.

What do we gain by hiding collections? There have been many emails and advice that if you show your collection either on the internet or in a catalogue you will sell your collection for less money.

Oooooops what happened? I thought it was a hobby; maybe there I a growing number who are investors or why should it concern you if a coin fetched less because it was seen publicly?

I hope I boil your blood!

Sorry missing the point here.

Why would showing you collection on the internet and who said it would reduce it's value if you, surely the opposite. When I sell my collectin in about 7 years time I want everyone to know about it as the well known collections attract more attension. Look at Workman, Crooker, Freeman, Cooke, Peck etc. Of course touting your collection around may also attract the wrong type.

[TomGoodheart 373]

LOL OK, let's (or rather let me) look at this dispassionately. Slabs. Inherently ... I have little objection to slabs! When I first started collecting I bought some Hartberger plastic flips, which are really just fancy versions of card flips; a fold-over piece of card with a hole for the coin and plastic film to protect. And I thought my coins looked quite fine in them! Plus they were protected when daughter wanted to look at a coin I didn't have to worry about it being dropped or sticky fingers ruining it.

My main gripe with slabs is actually the associated grading, which I worry makes collectors lazier. Instead of coming to their own decision about grade, buyers tend to accept the slab. But we've all heard of re-slabbing in the hope of a grade improvement. Plus with US grading I do wonder if the average collector can tell the difference between a 62 and 63, despite the price differential, but that's perhaps another matter. The question is, are they buying the coin or the slab? For that reason I wonder if buying slabbed coins is a .. different experience from buying unslabbed?

I also find that slabs can hide defects (particularly on edges) and make it difficult to really see the coin. A fairly big negative I think. I've only bought one coin that had been slabbed (but 'freed' by the time I saw it) and was pleased to find the nasty scratch it originally featured on the reverse had gone. It must have been on the slab!

(Slabbed on the left. Unslabbed right. Both from dealer's pics!)

But my real reason? I just prefer my coins in a nice felt lined tray and the fact that I can pick them up and re-examine them with a lens any time without a piece of plastic between us!

Auction houses? That's fine and in the past many big collectors have used auction houses as their dealers and have formed useful relationships and magnificent collections. But for the medium collector like me, the buyer fees add a significant hike to the price and no auction house is likely to phone me and tell me about their latest offerings in the hope of securing my interest. Whereas dealers hopefully remember me!

The internet? I kinda thought that we use the internet the same as everywhere else! However the only 'dealer transparency' I've found is from sites that list auction data. In order to get access to the historical data which I need I'd have to pay a (to me) significant amount and I'm not prepared to do that (I could buy a very decent coin with $600/£375!) As for other aspects of the internet, well, I simply could not have assembled my collection without the internet. I have bought from delaers and action houses as far flung as Australia, Germany, the USA from the comfort of my living room. The internet? I like!

As for the final bit about hiding collections, like Gary, I don't think that's the case, surely Geoff? Yes, I am not going to advertise to all and sundry that I have a coin collection because people have distorted ideas about the value of such things and I don't want to be burgled (again)!

But if people like you or my other contacts know that I have one of the (now 8) known examples of the Sharp G3/2 Charles I shilling, that to me seems to be a good thing on balance. Firstly it gives everyone the opportunity to compare dies and examples, so scholarship benefits. Secondly, if ever I did want to sell then I'd have thought people knowing that there are only x of such coins would help the price, not hinder it. I'm sure I could find a buyer with little difficulty and the fact that I can include such coins in my collection, and people know that, I'd have thought would give my overall collection a little bit more .. kudos, perhaps?

[scott 129]

idont mind slabs, they protect the coin, the only issue i have is they add insane ammouns to the cost of buying coins.

[azda 973]

What makes my blood boil is this scenario...........

I was selling a Queen Anne Guinea a while back, an obvious dealer asked me what i wanted for it, so i said how about Spink book which was quite a chunk, so he basically said to me i was being unrealistic (obviously as he was a dealer).

He said he'd placed a bid at what he thought it was worth, needless to say he got outbid at 250 quid.

I know dealers have to make a living and have overheads etc, but why do some think they SHOULD have that coin at 1/4 or even less of it's value, that sort of thing really gets on my nipples.

I can't remember what date it exactly was now, but it was in GVF and booked at well over 1500 quid. That is what makes my blood boil

[Peckris 579]

I was selling a Queen Anne Guinea a while back, an obvious dealer asked me what i wanted for it, so i said how about Spink book which was quite a chunk, so he basically said to me i was being unrealistic (obviously as he was a dealer).

He said he'd placed a bid at what he thought it was worth, needless to say he got outbid at 250 quid.

I know dealers have to make a living and have overheads etc, but why do some think they SHOULD have that coin at 1/4 or even less of it's value, that sort of thing really gets on my nipples.

I can't remember what date it exactly was now, but it was in GVF and booked at well over 1500 quid. That is what makes my blood boil

A dealer who expects to pay 1/6 book price for a highly saleable coin like Anne gold, is living in cloudcuckooland. When I dealt I tried to work on an average of half book, but that included the kind of dross that would hang around for ages and for which you wouldn't pay more than 1/3 book, often much less. Good items I might pay 2/3 book knowing I could sell them on. Your dealer was just a cheapskate chancer, would make my blood boil too.

[azda 973]

Needless to say peck it did sell for over 1k, but that was just pathetic from him. Obviously he was looking at making a 4 figure profit from me

[Accumulator 52]

I honestly don't see how publicising a collection during its creation could reduce the subsequent sale potential? If anything I would have expected it to enhance provenance, particularly where the collection had been used to support the writing of a reference work or been owned by a recognised authority. I can't imagine that ex Freeman or Peck coins would not realise full value.

For those of us with lesser collections I think that the internet still provides an opportunity to contribute to the body of knowledge which exists about our hobby. Sites like Tony Clayton's and others, I'm sure, are regularly referred to by many of us. How often have we Googled a coin to find other examples with which to compare one of our own? Over time I imagine that several first and second tier collections will be permanently exhibited on line and become references, like the auction catalogues of the past. When these collections are broken up and sold it, such provenance surely can't reduce their saleability.

Its a long term project for me to display my coins on-line (pennies to start with). I just need a few spare sunny days to get the photography done and a few dozen spare winter's evenings to build the site! Spare time being at a premium, it could take quite a while!

[coin watch 1]

Realistically nobody likes change; in most cases people resist change. The slabbing, putting in plastic, grading whatever raises many individual blood pressure! Why should this bother you?

The move to the sale of coins from the dealer to the auction house, why should this concern us?

In the US and Europe the dealer works in harmony with the auction houses, dealers support the hobby by investing into stocks, is this missing in the UK? Is this a weak link in the UK?

Outside the UK the internet is embraced and used as an information tool, updating of prices, knowledge transfer, a dealer transparency tool, the internet assisted Heritage have an auction company that grows from strength to strength. Every few months new marketing and creative offers keep being created.

What do we gain by hiding collections? There have been many emails and advice that if you show your collection either on the internet or in a catalogue you will sell your collection for less money.

Oooooops what happened? I thought it was a hobby; maybe there I a growing number who are investors or why should it concern you if a coin fetched less because it was seen publicly?

I hope I boil your blood!

I too really dont understand the comment about a coin fetching less because it was seen publicly? do you mean whilst a coin is still in a collection but shown regularly? like on a museum site or something then later if sold on it might well sell for less?? confused?! I would say a coin that is well known from say an old collection and which has been photographed many times would stand a greater chance of a good sale.

As for the internet, well I like to think we Brits are pretty much ok with the progress of the net, if our good old British reserve is holding us back then I like to think it is also protecting us as it has always done, those who hesitate loose out but also fools rush in!!!

BTW....no blood boiled, just confused!

[Colin G. 147]

I think the issue of the "publicly seen" aspect, is that a coin which has been tucked away in a collection for years attracts attention when it sells because it is a fresh example. Whereas a coin that has been on display on a website is "known" and seen daily so it loses its mystique.

I would think that this could work either way, having a coin that has been featured somewhere must also attract some interest.

[coin watch 1]

I think the issue of the "publicly seen" aspect, is that a coin which has been tucked away in a collection for years attracts attention when it sells because it is a fresh example. Whereas a coin that has been on display on a website is "known" and seen daily so it loses its mystique.

I would think that this could work either way, having a coin that has been featured somewhere must also attract some interest.

"Mystique" yes I agree a new coin to the market has made the interest greater in the past but I feel this mystigue can become weaker and replaced with doubt when thinking on the ever increasing amount of modern fakes entering the market lately. With this in mind you can't beat a well known provenance to add that final premium.

[Colin G. 147]

The slabbing, putting in plastic, grading whatever raises many individual blood pressure! Why should this bother you?

Doesn't really bother me, I think it will save a few coins from mis-handling which really does annoy me, especially by dealers at fairs etc. who should know better! Grading will always be subjective and slabbing will not change that, but I already feel better about slabbing than I used to be.

The move to the sale of coins from the dealer to the auction house, why should this concern us?

Is this really happening, there may be a few more auction houses about, but there also seem to be a lot more "dealers" about. I have never really thought this to be an issue.

In the US and Europe the dealer works in harmony with the auction houses, dealers support the hobby by investing into stocks, is this missing in the UK? Is this a weak link in the UK?

I have never really thought this to be an issue either.

Outside the UK the internet is embraced and used as an information tool, updating of prices, knowledge transfer, a dealer transparency tool, the internet assisted Heritage have an auction company that grows from strength to strength. Every few months new marketing and creative offers keep being created.

I think the trouble is we are always resistant to change over here (especially coin collectors & dealers) we are an old school bunch, so we will always drag behind slightly. However I should think the way coin prices are in the USA the auction houses must do a lot better than the UK auction houses financially, and therefore more cash to invest in development.

What do we gain by hiding collections? There have been many emails and advice that if you show your collection either on the internet or in a catalogue you will sell your collection for less money.

I think this could work either way depending on the coin and where it is "publicly visable". Surely it adds to the provenance in some respects

[VickySilver 774]

You know I think there are coins so tucked away that they have become forgotten (ie I can think of the 1952E "other" shilling mentioned in Norweb or its possible 1952S mate, or even an unloved but incredibly rare 1930 VIP Record proof halfcrown of which only one is in private hands). I for one, would like to see pictures or word of them now and again...Perhaps there is an happy medium to exposure?

[moneyer12 0]

a coin is a beautiful work of art, why entomb it in a plastic coffin? i will never have a slabbed coin in my collection as i find them abhorrent......

[numismatist 2]

Think what a slab does to the superb edge inscriptions on early milled silver and gold,

with the many rare varieties of that early period. The edge like others say , may be worn

damaged , soldered, or have a rare mistake in the inscriptionn and all is hidden from view

My motto is " smash the slab " and see the true coin in the hand rather than just hope

all is well with what cannot be seen.

[VickySilver 774]

This slab controversy will go on and on, and there are many aspects to it: I think one thing to keep on account is that it IS a reversable process. Also, for higher state preserved pieces or "red" copper/bronze it will keep them that way much better than raw. Also, there are now the new generation holders that have three tines of inert plastic to hold the coin so that the edge is well visualized.

I think that edge obstruction, although a valid critique of holders, is therefore now not so much of an issue.

On more recent milled pieces this is an excellent alternative for storage and on "sight unseen" purchases, and not as clearly beneficial on older or ancient bits, where IMO raw is preferable.

Value is also quite critical with slabbing by the more reputable TPGs, and I will quote the following example using an unnamed friend's purchase: he bought a nice looking 1841 half sov that looked good on the 'bay but was not in hand. This went for, by recall, 600 pounds plus shipping. He then had it "slabbed" by NGC which IMO rightly gave him a conservative grade of "65" . Based on auction sales such as Terner and more recent Heritage and Superior Sales in the US, this coin would have a very good shot at 2,000 pounds.

Now it is the same coin, but has an extra "cache" of convertability in that the buyer would have a somewhat better idea of what the coin actually IS in terms of preservation, strike and surfaces. Now some of the extra value may be in venue, but at these same venues slabbed pieces seem to consistently bring higher prices so I would argue it is the slab that has assisted. What the ultimate buyer then does with the slab after purchase is then his/her perogative...

Well, just a few more thoughts...

Edited November 8, 2011 by VickySilver

[Generic Lad 25]

For the slabs, I have a few problems not in the slabs themselves (well, not the NGC/PCGs ones because they are well designed so you can see the edge, some self-slabbers will put it in a slab where you can't see the edge at all...) but in the mentality of the slab. Rather than mintage rarities, collecting now has far too many "condition rarities" where a single point on a scale makes a huge price difference when it has no difference in eye appeal. Too many US collectors have focused on the plastic holding the coin than the coin itself.

As for the internet, I think that the more (free!) information on the internet there is, the better it is for the hobby. Without the internet, I would not be collecting British coins, because, quite frankly, there are no good coin shops near me that sell world coins. Sure, now and then I can pick up a Silver Britannia for about bullion, get a silver sixpence here and a Victoria penny there, but they are sold as curiosities, not as serious collector items. With the internet, I can go to eBay or a myriad of dealer's websites and find coins that I'd never be able to find through my local dealers. Similarly, it is nice to have the convenience that the internet has in researching coins and collaboration.

[VickySilver 774]

Yes, true about the grading companies and the increase in "value" for a point or two on the numerical scale of presentation, however I think my point about convertibility at time of sale remains true as do those regarding preservation.