2 curious questions for my inquisitive mind

[TomGoodheart 373]

Well, I did edit it to 'pretty much' nobody .. LOL

I think if you want to collect hammered then Charles' is a good reign. Coins were produced in (for the most part) considerable numbers and so are readily available on sites like ebay and there are enough papers and books around to serve as a catalogue for what's available and so to draw up a wants list. Plus you have a decent choice of denominations.

Unfortunately as Peter says, quality costs. Yes, I've read comparisons with the US market which say how relatively cheap our coins (even 350 year old ones) are, but even so prices have and (at the better end) continue to rise.

I've recently cast a critical eye over my small collection and there are quite a few coins for which I'd be very happy to get back what I paid for them so I can reinvest in better examples, but I guess, 'twas ever thus. The more coins you see, the longer you collect, the more you get a feel for what's 'average' and what is rather better than. So, if anyone has any specific Chas shilling wants .. pm me!

[Peter 615]

Well, I did edit it to 'pretty much' nobody .. LOL

I think if you want to collect hammered then Charles' is a good reign. Coins were produced in (for the most part) considerable numbers and so are readily available on sites like ebay and there are enough papers and books around to serve as a catalogue for what's available and so to draw up a wants list. Plus you have a decent choice of denominations.

Unfortunately as Peter says, quality costs. Yes, I've read comparisons with the US market which say how relatively cheap our coins (even 350 year old ones) are, but even so prices have and (at the better end) continue to rise.

I've recently cast a critical eye over my small collection and there are quite a few coins for which I'd be very happy to get back what I paid for them so I can reinvest in better examples, but I guess, 'twas ever thus. The more coins you see, the longer you collect, the more you get a feel for what's 'average' and what is rather better than. So, if anyone has any specific Chas shilling wants .. pm me!

On count back I have 8 albums,6 linder trays,2 aluminium cases with 6 trays in each,8 trays,6 small numis albums and 5 boxes to sort/catalogue.

My plan is to down size big time and put everything into 1 cabinet....It may take a while as coins coming in are about the same as going out.The coming in are a tad more expensive.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Sounds like you'll need a big cabinet Peter!

And returning to Dave's original question, my eyes were drawn to this amongst Lloyd Bennett's latest offerings. I was especially interested to see that while NGC had graded the coin XF45 (which is a decent EF if memory serves me) Lloyd is more conservative in his estimate. Lloyd Bennett

Which I suppose goes to show that yes, you do get EF coins. But that when it comes to hammered there's a degree of subjectivity, depending on personal experience and expertise, to any grading.

[Rob 3,002]

Allow me to disabuse you of the idea that hammered are VF or worse.

Fresh from today's sale at DNW is this William I sword penny from Dorchester. The most adequate description of today's sale is carnage. The first part was a parcel of Saxon and early Norman pennies in top grade, mostly EF or better. Estimates in total of about £85K for the 39 lots; cost to the buyers, just over £197K. Lot 1012 was the worst offender with someone paying £31K for the very nice Edward the Elder portrait penny with a Saxon church on the reverse, though some were reasonably priced. The attention paid to this small collection was justified as there hasn't been a group of such high grade pieces for a very long time. Or as someone said to me today, 'Now Brian Grover will be able to afford a new set of flip-flops!' Wonderful coins, every one of them. Jim Sazama's hammered pennies contained a lot of indifferent material, though the really nice Edward I 1b made £10500 against the £8200 he paid in 2008. Things didn't get any better afterwards either.

[azda 973]

Now thats a helluva portrait

[Peter 615]

Allow me to disabuse you of the idea that hammered are VF or worse.

Fresh from today's sale at DNW is this William I sword penny from Dorchester. The most adequate description of today's sale is carnage. The first part was a parcel of Saxon and early Norman pennies in top grade, mostly EF or better. Estimates in total of about £85K for the 39 lots; cost to the buyers, just over £197K. Lot 1012 was the worst offender with someone paying £31K for the very nice Edward the Elder portrait penny with a Saxon church on the reverse, though some were reasonably priced. The attention paid to this small collection was justified as there hasn't been a group of such high grade pieces for a very long time. Or as someone said to me today, 'Now Brian Grover will be able to afford a new set of flip-flops!' Wonderful coins, every one of them. Jim Sazama's hammered pennies contained a lot of indifferent material, though the really nice Edward I 1b made £10500 against the £8200 he paid in 2008. Things didn't get any better afterwards either.

I take it that you had a successful day Is the William for your collection or sale?

It really is stunning.

[Rob 3,002]

I take it that you had a successful day Is the William for your collection or sale?

It really is stunning.

That's for me. Apart from lots 16 & 17 in the Symonds sale of 1973 (both VF and collected by him in the early years of the last century), this is the only other example to come to market in the last 50 years or more. It is also vastly superior to the other two. I came second on a couple others, but really wanted a Dorchester as the mint is less than common.

There were 5 Dorchesters in the sale; a CRVX and a PAXS which are both common as types, a superb William I profile right which ticked all the boxes but was always going to be too expensive, an Edward the Confessor Pointed Helmet which had wonderful multi-hued toning and was arguably the most attractive of the 5 and this one. I opted for the latter as it provided an example from a difficult mint for the type where there are relatively few other difficult mints as alternatives - no more than a dozen. The Pointed Helmet issue is infested with at least two dozen hard to get mints. I have set myself the task of getting as many minting locations as possible without duplication of coin type where possible. I'm starting with the difficult mints first and when these are mostly complete I can fill in the gaps with the easy ones. A relatively rare type gives the opportunity to acquire a difficult mint to boot at a relatively small premium to the price paid for any example of the type, whereas a rare mint of a common type will always be multiples of the cheapest.

[azda 973]

Common type? Lol, i can find these to

[Rob 3,002]

Common type? Lol, i can find these to

Not satisfied with winking at the wife, you're now winking at a Cnut pointed helmet type penny. You either need to send your iPhone to language school, or to Room 101 for re-education.

Cnut's pointed helmet type is even more common than Edward the Confessor's. But that demonstrates the thinking behind my collecting rules. 50% of all hammered Saxon & Norman pennies comes from the main centres of London, York, Canterbury, Lincoln and Winchester. Individual types may on occasions be rare for a particular mint, but the mint as a whole is invariably common. There are a lot of mints for which only a few dozen coins are known in total (including museums). When you see one for sale, you tend not to pass up the opportunity.

[Peter 615]

Common type? Lol, i can find these to

Cnut...The veiled head penny of the pre 12C series.

Nice coins and 10 years ago £60 each at Colin Cookes in VF/VF+

Not quite in a Williams league.

[Red Riley 2]

Did I ever mention how much I like the fact that pretty much nobody else here has the least interest in the shillings of Charles I?

Or at least, those that do are in the minority! LOL

Er... hold on a second.

[Rob 3,002]

There were 5 Dorchesters in the sale; a CRVX and a PAXS which are both common as types, a superb William I profile right which ticked all the boxes but was always going to be too expensive, an Edward the Confessor Pointed Helmet which had wonderful multi-hued toning and was arguably the most attractive of the 5 and this one.

Sorry, correction. There was also a Harthacnut from Dorchester (lot 1028) which was struck off-centre on the reverse, but with an excellent provenance.

[Peckris 579]

Common type? Lol, i can find these to

Cnut...The veiled head penny of the pre 12C series.

Nice coins and 10 years ago £60 each at Colin Cookes in VF/VF+

Not quite in a Williams league.

I remember that offer. I now wish I'd got one. As it is, I did get one of those UNC-with-bags-of-lustre 1873 farthings he had for £9

[Peter 615]

Common type? Lol, i can find these to

Cnut...The veiled head penny of the pre 12C series.

Nice coins and 10 years ago £60 each at Colin Cookes in VF/VF+

Not quite in a Williams league.

I remember that offer. I now wish I'd got one. As it is, I did get one of those UNC-with-bags-of-lustre 1873 farthings he had for £9

I was buying a few hammered at the time.I can remember a list or the latest coin mag arriving and getting on the phone 1st thing to reserve a coin.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Did I ever mention how much I like the fact that pretty much nobody else here has the least interest in the shillings of Charles I?

Or at least, those that do are in the minority! LOL

Er... hold on a second.

LOL Sorry. Just sometimes I forget it's 'Predecimal' not 'Farthing variations unlimited'

Nice to see members showing enthusiasm for getting hammered now and again.

[Colin G. 147]

Rob good to see you got one of the coins you wanted from DNW. The prices seemed to be quite strong throughout the sale.

Tom just to show I dangle my toe in both camps, a hammered farthing I recently acquired

[TomGoodheart 373]

Rob good to see you got one of the coins you wanted from DNW. The prices seemed to be quite strong throughout the sale.

Tom just to show I dangle my toe in both camps, a hammered farthing I recently acquired

Nice portrait. He looks very happy!

[Rob 3,002]

Rob good to see you got one of the coins you wanted from DNW. The prices seemed to be quite strong throughout the sale.

Following today's prices at Baldwins, it appears that those on Monday weren't as bad as they could have been.

Oh, the benefits of a good library. Checking Carlyon-Britton's article on the Saxon and Norman mints in the 1908 BNJ, it lists the various legend readings for the known Dorchester pennies at the time. My coin's reading has a footnote saying Mrs Mary Willett's collection has an example which is illustrated in vol.2 (1905). A quick check and there is my coin, illustrated on plate 3. I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll. It could be the only one known of this reading too which would be a bonus, because Symonds aside, Dorchester sword pennies are notable for their absence in any catalogues that I have. Period.

[TomGoodheart 373]

I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

[Rob 3,002]

I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

There are copies in the BM, the Fitzwilliam, the Ashmolean and the Warburg Institute according to M & R. Whether they have buyers' names though is another matter. Spink will have a copy of the catalogue and Baldwins may possibly have one, though their library is a little disorganised.

[Peter 615]

I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

There are copies in the BM, the Fitzwilliam, the Ashmolean and the Warburg Institute according to M & R. Whether they have buyers' names though is another matter. Spink will have a copy of the catalogue and Baldwins may possibly have one, though their library is a little disorganised.

Peters business idea's patent...RPcoins-ancestorycoin.co.uk

[Rob 3,002]

I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

There are copies in the BM, the Fitzwilliam, the Ashmolean and the Warburg Institute according to M & R. Whether they have buyers' names though is another matter. Spink will have a copy of the catalogue and Baldwins may possibly have one, though their library is a little disorganised.

Peters business idea's patent...RPcoins-ancestorycoin.co.uk

Ah, but would you be willing to pay for the info?

[TomGoodheart 373]

I don't have the catalogue of her sale though which was at Glendinings 23/11/1920. Find that info and we could be on a roll.

Maybe a trip to Cambridge? Fitzwilliam catalogues

There are copies in the BM, the Fitzwilliam, the Ashmolean and the Warburg Institute according to M & R. Whether they have buyers' names though is another matter. Spink will have a copy of the catalogue and Baldwins may possibly have one, though their library is a little disorganised.

Peters business idea's patent...RPcoins-ancestorycoin.co.uk

Ah, but would you be willing to pay for the info?

I think that's a bit like the slabbing question. For a valuble coin that you might be interested in selling, then the provenance will add interest if not value and (to me at least) might be an asset. A small cost could be justified.

But the idea might not take off if places start to scan their documents and post them online. The Fitzwilliam copy for example it says 'some prices handwritten', but obviously we don't know what details that might include. A (even low res) scanned copy could answer that.

Of course, I quite like looking to find out where my coins might have come from - not to the extent of Rob's library - but many people won't have the time or inclination ... I guess the main problem is that it'll likely only be the private collectors. Auction houses and museums will have their own resources they can refer to, or judging by some auction listings, just won't bother.

Edited September 29, 2011 by TomGoodheart

[Rob 3,002]

Peters business idea's patent...RPcoins-ancestorycoin.co.uk

Ah, but would you be willing to pay for the info?

I think that's a bit like the slabbing question. For a valuble coin that you might be interested in selling, then the provenance will add interest if not value and (to me at least) might be an asset. A small cost could be justified.

Bit the idea might not take off if places start to scan their documents and post them online. The Fitzwilliam copy for example it says 'some prices handwritten', but obviously we don't know what details that might include. A (even low res) scanned copy could answer that.

Of course, I quite like looking to find out where my coins might have come from - not to the extent of Rob's library - but many people won't have the time or inclination ... I guess the main problem is that it'll likely only be the private collectors. Auction houses and museums will have their own resources they can refer to, or judging by some auction listings, just won't bother.

A decent provenance will unquestionably add value. The pledge halfpenny that I wanted in Spink's June sale had a provenance given of Parsons only, but a bit of judicious research extended that to 10 names starting with the Earl of Pembroke (d.1733). Without the provenance it was a £3K coin, with the added info a £4000-4500 coin. Unfortunately it went to Geoff Cope (as I knew it would) and is now on his website, but that is a good example of the uplift in prices you can get. Once you can get a traceable history of ownership, the chances of rejection on the grounds it is a copy is very much reduced. With illustrations this is enhanced, like the penny above.

Prices are ok up to a point, but the important info is the name of the buyer as that gives the provenance. The auction houses will all have their own copies of the sales with prices and buyers, though Seabys threw a lot of the info away when they were taken over by CNG. Baldwins are a bit disorganised and may have lost some info. A problem you will encounter is that where book bids are knocked down to a common name e.g. Glens used Graham, Spink used Goddard and today DNW use Wood for book bids. There is no way of knowing the ultimate winner without the auction house divulging the info - which they won't.

Edited September 29, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

I won't liken it exactly but a car or motorbikes history helps.

When I sold a motorbike to a dealer the eventual new owner got in touch with me and I could add a bit of history(the dealer had lost!!! a load of receipts for replacement small end bearings of which it ate)...I believe he moved it on.

If I was buying an Unc common 1853 1/4d for £50 I wouldn't give a monkies where it came from, but a unique rare quality piece from Montaque/Peck/Johnson/Cooke for several hundred £'s I would love their observations on it/how much they paid etc etc.

Rob..I'm sure the TPG's would love the info on provenance and pay you well.