Will fake coins become harded to detect?

[coin watch 1]

Rob just out of interest I can see the signature 'DROZ' to the left in exergue but it looks like something is also under the date, looks like maybe another signature? just interested to know if this should be there?

[Rob 2,998]

Rob just out of interest I can see the signature 'DROZ' to the left in exergue but it looks like something is also under the date, looks like maybe another signature? just interested to know if this should be there?

The date 1791 is a Taylor concoction. No Droz pattern with this date is known. The type is a Peck R66 which is struck from the reverse die of type R17 which in turn was derived from type R8. Due to Taylor having to remove the original date of 1790 in order to insert 1791, he also removed most of the signature below the date. Originally this read DROZ.INV.. There was also an F in the top right of the exergue of which only the top bar remains.

[TomGoodheart 373]

A reasonable suggestion would be that a provenance might add say 0-50% to an unprovenanced example in comparable grade. But these coins typically turn up in proper auctions and not on places like eBay which means that you are more likely to be an experienced collector in the first place. I believe it is unquestionably money well spent and will always choose a provenanced coin over a comparable unprovenanced one. That is why it is also important to keep any tickets that may come with a coin. You might not know who wrote them now, but in the future they might be identified. Ebay on the whole is not a good source of provenanced coins - the number I have bought over the past 8-10 years off ebay is only a dozen at the most. Actually, make that two thinking about it.

How about 100%??! Henry VI Groat

[Rob 2,998]

A reasonable suggestion would be that a provenance might add say 0-50% to an unprovenanced example in comparable grade. But these coins typically turn up in proper auctions and not on places like eBay which means that you are more likely to be an experienced collector in the first place. I believe it is unquestionably money well spent and will always choose a provenanced coin over a comparable unprovenanced one. That is why it is also important to keep any tickets that may come with a coin. You might not know who wrote them now, but in the future they might be identified. Ebay on the whole is not a good source of provenanced coins - the number I have bought over the past 8-10 years off ebay is only a dozen at the most. Actually, make that two thinking about it.

How about 100%??! Henry VI Groat

ooooooh. loverly. I don't need one but, £100 less or a bit more and I'd start to get interested. It's a £300 coin, but worth paying a bit extra for. As common as the type is, that is a splendid example. If it is ex-RCB and has a Seaby ticket/envelope, it should be possible to establish wherever it was listed. It might even have a few more tickets because RCB noted provenances.

Edited July 22, 2011 by Rob

[TomGoodheart 373]

Tomgoodhart lists all the forgeries he encounters on the Forgery Network.

Two more modern replica Charles I shillings added there today. Nos 11541 and 11542. The former is a current ebay listing.

Edited July 29, 2011 by TomGoodheart

[TomGoodheart 373]

And 11544:

[Colin G. 147]

A good percentage of today's hammered coins must be found as a result of metal detecting, I know I have purchased a couple of farthings and have been able to pair them up with records on the UKDFD where some finds get recorded, and the same with the PAS database (but much slower and harder to search!!)

At least it gives you a finder's provenance that can be kept with the coin, I know this could still be abused, but when you have a few minutes to spare it is worth a shot!!

[wybrit 2]

I would say the answer to the question is "it is inevitable." The Chinese and greater east Asian cultures excel at continuous process improvement, and coin forgery (and slab forgery, for that matter) will only get better - especially when the government there does little or nothing about it.

The recent rash and subsequent prolifertion of fake copper Victorian halfpennies with scarce and rare dates (all with the exact same worn reverse) should be a warning to everyone.

[Peter 615]

I would say the answer to the question is "it is inevitable." The Chinese and greater east Asian cultures excel at continuous process improvement, and coin forgery (and slab forgery, for that matter) will only get better - especially when the government there does little or nothing about it.

The recent rash and subsequent prolifertion of fake copper Victorian halfpennies with scarce and rare dates (all with the exact same worn reverse) should be a warning to everyone.

Hi Wybrit

Have you a link for the counterfeiting?

Thanks

[wybrit 2]

I would say the answer to the question is "it is inevitable." The Chinese and greater east Asian cultures excel at continuous process improvement, and coin forgery (and slab forgery, for that matter) will only get better - especially when the government there does little or nothing about it.

The recent rash and subsequent prolifertion of fake copper Victorian halfpennies with scarce and rare dates (all with the exact same worn reverse) should be a warning to everyone.

Hi Wybrit

Have you a link for the counterfeiting?

Thanks

Hi Peter, no, unfortunately. The coins in question were sold on ebay first by UK sellers as copies (at least they didn't mislead). Pretty soon they migrated over to other sellers, including in the US, many times ignorantly portrayed as real. I have not seen any offered in a while, but the dates that have been faked are 1848, 1851 and, of course, 1860. All of them were obvious fakes, luckily.

[Seb Delcampe 0]

And 11544:

Hello,

I can confirm that Delcampe.net is fighting fraudsters and fake items (as well coins as stamps, etc) for a long time, and will continue.

As visitors of the site, you always have the possibility to use the link "Report this item" located top right of each sale. And if you want to better contribute, because you are an expert or a specialized collector, we have a Moderator program where between 30 and 50 moderators are watching the site.

Kind regards, Seb Delcampe

[azda 973]

And 11544:

Hello,

I can confirm that Delcampe.net is fighting fraudsters and fake items (as well coins as stamps, etc) for a long time, and will continue.

As visitors of the site, you always have the possibility to use the link "Report this item" located top right of each sale. And if you want to better contribute, because you are an expert or a specialized collector, we have a Moderator program where between 30 and 50 moderators are watching the site.

Kind regards, Seb Delcampe

Thats good to hear Seb, its a pity ebay does'nt take the same stance as you, all they are interested in at the end of the day is their cash and don't give a toss if a coin is a fake or not. Keep up the work. Have you found many coins to date, can you list by Country what's been found. What action do you also take against those who are selling fakes?

[Gollum 2]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

[azda 973]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

Nice, just wonder what they're going to do with coins that are not marked as COPY, IE: the fakes made to look like the real thing, herein lies the problem and Ebays more than difficult way to report such items.

[Peter 615]

Considerable amounts of copper especially late 18C are evasions and collected.What about sterlings that were imitations of English silver 1d's and produced in Europe?

I love to see a well made 1933 1d and recently we had a thread on some 2/6's 1860,61 etc these are all historical and part of the currency history.I actually like Ashmore coins of which many sit in a collectors tray today with the collector being oblivious.

If people are prepared to risk considerable sums on Ebay that is up to them.Ebay should leave it as it is and let us punters self police.All Ebay have to do is open chanels of dialogue and act on the obvious spivs and shillers.

[seuk 85]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

Looks like another totally crappy ebay decision! I guess we'll be seeing more 'patterns' or 'I don't know anything about coins' on ebay in the future - after a possible replica stamp has been removed to comply with ebay rules.

And sad news for collectors of US contemporary counterfeits and for the genuine collectors of replica coins!

[Peckris 579]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

Looks like another totally crappy ebay decision! I guess we'll be seeing more 'patterns' or 'I don't know anything about coins' on ebay in the future - after a possible replica stamp has been removed to comply with ebay rules.

And sad news for collectors of US contemporary counterfeits and for the genuine collectors of replica coins!

What counts as a 'replica', I wonder? A 1933 penny is obviously a replica, but no-one is going to be fooled by a listing claiming it to be genuine. I'd mourn the loss of those good fakes, as Peter says. I can only assume that an 18th Century evasion halfpenny won't count, as they are 1) collected in their own right (as are seuk's favourite series from 1816) and 2) who will rule that a genuinely 250-year-old forged or evasion coin is a "replica"?

If the ruling is that items marked COPY aren't allowed, will we then see such items listed as genuine??

I come back to the crucial question - who will rule?

[seuk 85]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

Looks like another totally crappy ebay decision! I guess we'll be seeing more 'patterns' or 'I don't know anything about coins' on ebay in the future - after a possible replica stamp has been removed to comply with ebay rules.

And sad news for collectors of US contemporary counterfeits and for the genuine collectors of replica coins!

What counts as a 'replica', I wonder? A 1933 penny is obviously a replica, but no-one is going to be fooled by a listing claiming it to be genuine. I'd mourn the loss of those good fakes, as Peter says. I can only assume that an 18th Century evasion halfpenny won't count, as they are 1) collected in their own right (as are seuk's favourite series from 1816) and 2) who will rule that a genuinely 250-year-old forged or evasion coin is a "replica"?

If the ruling is that items marked COPY aren't allowed, will we then see such items listed as genuine??

I come back to the crucial question - who will rule?

As I read it; they will close the replica & reproduction sections. If coins are listed in other sections and openly described as replicas/copies/etc. the listing will be ended if reported or discovered(?) by ebay.

It will be interesting to see if there's any new action from ebay with regard to the real problem of fakes sold as genuine coins. At the present moment ebay don't seem to react on fake reports likely because they don't have any expertice in the field.

So will they acquire the necessary expertice? Or start to cancel anything reported or just keep ignoring reports as usual?

Only US contemporary counterfeits are mentioned - this can hardly include evasions or foreign coins whichs at some point have circulated in the US. However there may be a risk that the new policy will be exported to the other ebay branches and then all contemporary counterfeits could end up being banned!

[Seb Delcampe 0]

Thats good to hear Seb, its a pity ebay does'nt take the same stance as you, all they are interested in at the end of the day is their cash and don't give a toss if a coin is a fake or not. Keep up the work. Have you found many coins to date, can you list by Country what's been found. What action do you also take against those who are selling fakes?

Hello Azda,

Fake coins are reported daily and we close the sales. Also our moderators do a fantastic job by also removing fakes without the need to wait our team's action.

We understand that a mistake by a seller is always possible... but if we notice a certain seller is doing such "mistake" too often, then we take steps to warn him, then suspend / close his account.

Sebastien

[Gollum 2]

Seb, sorry, I took a look at the site just now, and I find it very unhelpfull and clunky, not to say that some if not a lot of the coins I looked at are way to high in price compared to the same item on ebay, 1877 shilling for over 108 euros !. The format is, I don't know, chunky is the only way I can explain it, and I also do not like the fact that if I want to see a price in sterling I have to run and convert it. If I just happen to log in and find a coin I like that has seconds or so to go, I don't want to lose it because I have to do a conversion, i would rather see it in front of me in my currency and click buy fast.

Having said that I registered out of decency for your posts and the fact I spotted a nice 1898 shilling after I said the above !.

Next criticism. Why would I want to credit my account with £4 to become verified, my paypal account is already verified to me and my home address and that is how I pay, if it's good enough for them it should be goood enough for you.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Gollum

[Seb Delcampe 0]

Hello Gollum,

Seb, sorry, I took a look at the site just now, and I find it very unhelpfull and clunky, not to say that some if not a lot of the coins I looked at are way to high in price compared to the same item on ebay, 1877 shilling for over 108 euros !. The format is, I don't know, chunky is the only way I can explain it,

Thank you to be honest in your message. We are well aware that we are still nowhere in British Coins... as we are just starting now. We are really the #1 specialized site for collectibles like stamps and postcards, worldwide... but we are giving more strength to our coin community for only a little more than one year. We started in France, and now we are slowly spreading the word around. If you look into our French coins, for instance, you will find better material.

and I also do not like the fact that if I want to see a price in sterling I have to run and convert it. If I just happen to log in and find a coin I like that has seconds or so to go, I don't want to lose it because I have to do a conversion, i would rather see it in front of me in my currency and click buy fast.

The only reason is that you are not yet connected. When you have an account, you have a setting "Preferred currency", set it to GBP, and all prices on the site will be immediately converted. We introduced this before eBay did, a long time ago (Note: we started in year 2000)

Having said that I registered out of decency for your posts and the fact I spotted a nice 1898 shilling after I said the above !.

Next criticism. Why would I want to credit my account with £4 to become verified, my paypal account is already verified to me and my home address and that is how I pay, if it's good enough for them it should be goood enough for you.

Postal verification is not mandatory, it is better if you are a seller for instance. Probably we will accept PayPal identification in the future, but it is not yet the case (we are working on other important things presently)

Thanks again for your message.

Sebastien

[Gollum 2]

Seb, I noted all the above and will do as instructed regarding the settings, after posting I went and had a good in depth look around, I am glad to see that many of the sellers are selling their run of the mill circulated stuff for peanuts ( well lot lower than the 99p ebay minimum ! ) so that pleases me immensely, however I have one further criticsim, there is no shopping basket, I went into one sellers shop, saw a lot of coins I liked at 20-50p and decided that I might like to buy them as fillers, but it means clicking on each coin and then clicking buy, I find that a little annoying, can you put a shopping basket on the site please.

So far contrary to my initial post, it seems a nice site apart from feeling clunky to me, that may be down to being used to the ebay format, I don't know yet, but if you can promise to keep the forgeries out or at least declared as such in their own section then we can have a happy partnership as venue and buyer.

[TomGoodheart 373]

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/ban-on-sales-of-replicas-starts-on-ebay-feb-2/

I think the problem is ebay don't understand the difference between replicas, counterfeits and contemporary copies and have lumped everything in together. I'm not sure who this Professional Numismatists Guild is either and whether they understand that a counterfeit coin produced 200 years ago is of historical interest and a very different thing to one made yesterday to fool collectors into parting with their cash. Similarly things like the Dutch restrikes of the Cromwell crown or museum electrotypes of rare coins.

Sounds like they have used a very big hammer to crack a nut that would have been better tackled by ebay taking more notice when experienced numismatists report dodgy items.

Plus the major headache of very well made (Chinese?) copies is unlikely to go away because such things are almost never listed as copies or replicas. So the likely outcome is that those like seuk who collect contemporary counterfeits will find it harder to source historically interesting coins, while people will continue to be ripped off by the unscrupulous selling tat.

As for "As part of its collaboration with PNG, eBay officials anticipate establishing a program to better educate collectors about the PNG and its trusted member-dealers, and to ensure the coin experience on eBay meets industry standards." I read that as

As part of its collaboration with PNG, eBay officials anticipate making lots of money from plugging PNG member-dealers, and will ensure the coin experience on eBay meets industry standards ... set by members of PNG.

Bravo PNG! A commercial coup indeed!

Edited January 22, 2012 by TomGoodheart

[Gollum 2]

snip..

As for "As part of its collaboration with PNG, eBay officials anticipate establishing a program to better educate collectors about the PNG and its trusted member-dealers, and to ensure the coin experience on eBay meets industry standards." I read that as

As part of its collaboration with PNG, eBay officials anticipate making lots of money from plugging PNG member-dealers, and will ensure the coin experience on eBay meets industry standards ... set by members of PNG.

Bravo PNG! A commercial coup indeed!

Hit the nail on the head.

[Nick 325]

Sounds like they have used a very big hammer to crack a nut that would have been better tackled by ebay taking more notice when experienced numismatists report dodgy items.

The next time a fake appears on eBay, one of us should put in a large bid to secure the item and a few others should report the item as fake. eBay will take no action and allow the buyer to become the proud owner of a worthless item. We could then sue eBay having incontrovertible proof that eBay allowed a fake to be sold.

It seems that litigation and bad publicity are the only things eBay listen to.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Nick