Is normal service resuming?

[Colin G. 147]

Went to Warwick & Warwick today, and actually came away with four lots, the prices seemed a lot more realistic, with silver still going a bit crazy!! There will always be the odd exception but some lots were going well below estimate.

Fingers crossed that the madness is starting to fade away.....at least until I have bought up a load more coins

[argentumandcoins 70]

Went to Warwick & Warwick today, and actually came away with four lots, the prices seemed a lot more realistic, with silver still going a bit crazy!! There will always be the odd exception but some lots were going well below estimate.

Fingers crossed that the madness is starting to fade away.....at least until I have bought up a load more coins

I didn't bother with them Colin after my last 2 attempts at buying there ended in 65-80 negatives!

[Rob 3,002]

Went to Warwick & Warwick today, and actually came away with four lots, the prices seemed a lot more realistic, with silver still going a bit crazy!! There will always be the odd exception but some lots were going well below estimate.

Fingers crossed that the madness is starting to fade away.....at least until I have bought up a load more coins

I didn't bother with them Colin after my last 2 attempts at buying there ended in 65-80 negatives!

I didn't bother. I looked at the catalogue, felt underwhelmed, and decided to find something better to do.

If by normal service you mean lower prices, then that would be expected because any initial weakness is likely to be in the mid-tier coins.

Edited April 13, 2011 by Rob

[argentumandcoins 70]

Went to Warwick & Warwick today, and actually came away with four lots, the prices seemed a lot more realistic, with silver still going a bit crazy!! There will always be the odd exception but some lots were going well below estimate.

Fingers crossed that the madness is starting to fade away.....at least until I have bought up a load more coins

I didn't bother with them Colin after my last 2 attempts at buying there ended in 65-80 negatives!

I didn't bother. I looked at the catalogue, felt underwhelmed, and decided to find something better to do.

If by normal service you mean lower prices, then that would be expected because any initial weakness is likely to be in the mid-tier coins.

Did you not like the copper Pennies Rob? Yes, you can taste a large slice of sarcasm

The old boy put a couple of bids on so we'll wait and see if he got them, I doubt it though because they were the only things of decent quality/scarcity in there.

[Colin G. 147]

Went to Warwick & Warwick today, and actually came away with four lots, the prices seemed a lot more realistic, with silver still going a bit crazy!! There will always be the odd exception but some lots were going well below estimate.

Fingers crossed that the madness is starting to fade away.....at least until I have bought up a load more coins

I didn't bother with them Colin after my last 2 attempts at buying there ended in 65-80 negatives!

I didn't bother. I looked at the catalogue, felt underwhelmed, and decided to find something better to do.

If by normal service you mean lower prices, then that would be expected because any initial weakness is likely to be in the mid-tier coins.

Actually there was a nice copper/bronze collection forming quite a few of the lots, which would have been a very nice collection. By normal service, I mean realistic prices which made sense

[Peter 615]

I did like the 1860 1/4d mule...the early copper was ummm

[Red Riley 2]

Couldn't make Warwick & Warwick today but went to Croydon Coin Auctions yesterday instead (6 trains to get there!). A completely different type of auction, much more homespun and dare I say it, more fun than the bigger sales. Much cheaper buyer's premium too even if the surroundings are a little underwhelming.

The type of coin tends to be a bit further down the scale, but even taking this into account, I felt the prices were still a little high. I can't complain too much though since I bought some nice lots including an 1845 penny just a gnats off unc. and a nicely toned 1707E crown in a decent VF.

Just got to find some buyers...

[Rob 3,002]

The problem I have with W&W is the issue aired on this forum a couple of years ago when everything was described using ebay standard grading or mis-described lots that they weren't prepared to issue a saleroom notice for. When that happens, you only bid in person having viewed the lots in advance. It helps nobody to return lots because they are not as described, so with there being plenty of fish in the sea you don't bid and move on. The lots may have been accurately graded and described in this instance; I don't know, but given the historical baggage I'm not going to bother finding out unless there is a coin that is on the Hobson's Choice list.

[Red Riley 2]

The problem I have with W&W is the issue aired on this forum a couple of years ago when everything was described using ebay standard grading or mis-described lots that they weren't prepared to issue a saleroom notice for. When that happens, you only bid in person having viewed the lots in advance. It helps nobody to return lots because they are not as described, so with there being plenty of fish in the sea you don't bid and move on. The lots may have been accurately graded and described in this instance; I don't know, but given the historical baggage I'm not going to bother finding out unless there is a coin that is on the Hobson's Choice list.

I have had problems with a couple of auction houses describing coins as 'Unc.' that patently were not. They all have their shortcomings which makes distance bids a harrowing process and I now prefer to attend sales as I was being forced to adopt my e-bay stance of 'if they say it's unc, then it's probably no better than EF'. The unfortunate thing is that taking this stance means that you don't actually win much in the higher grades. Fortunately I don't live a million miles from most of the salerooms and can make up my own mind about the lots up for sale. Having said that, the lighting and conditions under which the coins are viewed can be diabolical.

[Rob 3,002]

The problem I have with W&W is the issue aired on this forum a couple of years ago when everything was described using ebay standard grading or mis-described lots that they weren't prepared to issue a saleroom notice for. When that happens, you only bid in person having viewed the lots in advance. It helps nobody to return lots because they are not as described, so with there being plenty of fish in the sea you don't bid and move on. The lots may have been accurately graded and described in this instance; I don't know, but given the historical baggage I'm not going to bother finding out unless there is a coin that is on the Hobson's Choice list.

I have had problems with a couple of auction houses describing coins as 'Unc.' that patently were not. They all have their shortcomings which makes distance bids a harrowing process and I now prefer to attend sales as I was being forced to adopt my e-bay stance of 'if they say it's unc, then it's probably no better than EF'. The unfortunate thing is that taking this stance means that you don't actually win much in the higher grades. Fortunately I don't live a million miles from most of the salerooms and can make up my own mind about the lots up for sale. Having said that, the lighting and conditions under which the coins are viewed can be diabolical.

The first ever time I viewed I put my foot in it. Having given over the list of lots I wanted to see and had them passed to me, a VF 6d fell out on the table. As the guy was only a couple of feet away and busy, I quickly called him back as the coin was obviously not one I had requested (the list was mostly UNCs according to the descriptions). He assured me it was correct and so I had a sort of road to Damascus moment when a bright light shone in the sky, the clouds parted and a big finger poked me in the eye. From that moment I saw the true light and understood fully. Another instance was where 2 pattern 1/2ds were listed which were the only gaps in a long run of Peck numbers I needed to fill. One was painted gold and described as gilt, the second a currency piece and showed no characteristics of the purported Peck variety. An enquiry as to whether a notice would be issued in view of the obvious errors was met with a negative. (Mat was there too for that one and also noticed the Christmas tree decoration). A hammered penny described as from Hertford with a mint reading of HEORT despite the coin actually reading HAESTI (Hastings) with the S on its side as normal for that type and clearly from the hoard of about 100 coins of the type from the toning was similarly dismissed when the catalogue error was pointed out well in advance of the sale. The odd mistake you can accept, but to not issue corrections is unforgivably wrong.

[Colin G. 147]

I did like the 1860 1/4d mule...the early copper was ummm

The mule was a shame, had a large corrosion spot, but was otherwise not bad. Think the same coin has gone through london coins twice!!

I have to be honest, when I talk prices I talk about the bulk lots which is mainly what I go for, unless something really catches my eye , so the grading issue would not really affect me since they are not given for bulk purchases.

But Peter/Rob I know where you are coming from

Edited April 14, 2011 by Colin G.

[declanwmagee 122]

Back to the original question - are things settling down?

No. Got my arse kicked soundly on this ugly old thing...

1827 Penny

[argentumandcoins 70]

Back to the original question - are things settling down?

No. Got my arse kicked soundly on this ugly old thing...

1827 Penny

Ah, but you're confusing ebay with the real world Declan, fatal mistake!

Edited April 14, 2011 by argentumandcoins

[declanwmagee 122]

So do you think the real world will settle down before ebay does? Or vice versa. I wonder how the two affect each other?

eBay is showing no signs of cooling off at all.

What do you think an old dog like that 1827 would have gone for in the real world? If there's a consistent differential then people must be doing a "carry trade" - you know, buying in the real world in order to sell on ebay, perhaps.

[argentumandcoins 70]

So do you think the real world will settle down before ebay does? Or vice versa. I wonder how the two affect each other?

eBay is showing no signs of cooling off at all.

What do you think an old dog like that 1827 would have gone for in the real world? If there's a consistent differential then people must be doing a "carry trade" - you know, buying in the real world in order to sell on ebay, perhaps.

Not more than £50, or bugger all if it was my money!

I don't think ebay will slow Declan for the simple reason that there are too many buyers on there with too little knowledge, or who are too stupid, or too idle to try and source better quality coins from sources other than ebay.

[Peckris 579]

So do you think the real world will settle down before ebay does? Or vice versa. I wonder how the two affect each other?

eBay is showing no signs of cooling off at all.

What do you think an old dog like that 1827 would have gone for in the real world? If there's a consistent differential then people must be doing a "carry trade" - you know, buying in the real world in order to sell on ebay, perhaps.

Not more than £50, or bugger all if it was my money!

I don't think ebay will slow Declan for the simple reason that there are too many buyers on there with too little knowledge, or who are too stupid, or too idle to try and source better quality coins from sources other than ebay.

And far from "Oh they will get their fingers burned when they come to sell", they will compound the vicious circle by selling on eBay where the same ignorant, stupid and idle crowd will get them their money back and more, thus confirming them in their view of having paid the "right" price in the first place. What chance have genuine dealers, selling good quality stock, with overheads, trying to make a living, got? I suppose many of them will end up selling on eBay...

[declanwmagee 122]

So why would a minnow like me try trading in the real world? You're right, I ought to spend more time on finding sources of coins outside eBay, but there seems little point in trying to sell anywhere else.

Imagine you had a table at a fair. Imagine how many people would have to walk past your table to get even close to the exposure you'd get on ebay. I did try it once, just to see. Admittedly it was only a little local affair, and it wasn't just coins, but we weren't the only coin table there - there were 5 or 6 coinies, but we barely sold anything, and I didn't buy anything because (in those days - 3 years ago maybe), I could have bought better for less on ebay.

I can see that the real world would be a great place to operate for the well-established people like you lot, but how does a relative smallfry like me get into it? I really don't want to go down the road of buying large junk lots to see if there's anything interesting in there - I religiously stick to the principle of only buying to fill a gap or upgrade existing, and consequently I don't have buckets of low grade coins kicking around, and I'd like it to stay that way.

what do you reckon?

[Colin G. 147]

So why would a minnow like me try trading in the real world? You're right, I ought to spend more time on finding sources of coins outside eBay, but there seems little point in trying to sell anywhere else.

Imagine you had a table at a fair. Imagine how many people would have to walk past your table to get even close to the exposure you'd get on ebay. I did try it once, just to see. Admittedly it was only a little local affair, and it wasn't just coins, but we weren't the only coin table there - there were 5 or 6 coinies, but we barely sold anything, and I didn't buy anything because (in those days - 3 years ago maybe), I could have bought better for less on ebay.

I can see that the real world would be a great place to operate for the well-established people like you lot, but how does a relative smallfry like me get into it? I really don't want to go down the road of buying large junk lots to see if there's anything interesting in there - I religiously stick to the principle of only buying to fill a gap or upgrade existing, and consequently I don't have buckets of low grade coins kicking around, and I'd like it to stay that way.

what do you reckon?

Snap!! I always try and do the upgrade route, although I do now admittedly buy bulk lots to more and more because they are the best way for me to be able to examine large quantities of farthings.

I agree that Ebay has its bad points but as Declan says for exposure as a relative newbie, it does take some beating, but the better your stock gets the harder it gets to sell it for a decent price on Ebay...it is a strange phenomenon!!

[argentumandcoins 70]

So do you think the real world will settle down before ebay does? Or vice versa. I wonder how the two affect each other?

eBay is showing no signs of cooling off at all.

What do you think an old dog like that 1827 would have gone for in the real world? If there's a consistent differential then people must be doing a "carry trade" - you know, buying in the real world in order to sell on ebay, perhaps.

Not more than £50, or bugger all if it was my money!

I don't think ebay will slow Declan for the simple reason that there are too many buyers on there with too little knowledge, or who are too stupid, or too idle to try and source better quality coins from sources other than ebay.

And far from "Oh they will get their fingers burned when they come to sell", they will compound the vicious circle by selling on eBay where the same ignorant, stupid and idle crowd will get them their money back and more, thus confirming them in their view of having paid the "right" price in the first place. What chance have genuine dealers, selling good quality stock, with overheads, trying to make a living, got? I suppose many of them will end up selling on eBay...

A lot already do, in very high volumes as well.

I use it predominantly to move on lower grade stuff, foreign coins and the odd rarity that should do well in a huge worldwide market.

[argentumandcoins 70]

So why would a minnow like me try trading in the real world? You're right, I ought to spend more time on finding sources of coins outside eBay, but there seems little point in trying to sell anywhere else.

Imagine you had a table at a fair. Imagine how many people would have to walk past your table to get even close to the exposure you'd get on ebay. I did try it once, just to see. Admittedly it was only a little local affair, and it wasn't just coins, but we weren't the only coin table there - there were 5 or 6 coinies, but we barely sold anything, and I didn't buy anything because (in those days - 3 years ago maybe), I could have bought better for less on ebay.

I can see that the real world would be a great place to operate for the well-established people like you lot, but how does a relative smallfry like me get into it? I really don't want to go down the road of buying large junk lots to see if there's anything interesting in there - I religiously stick to the principle of only buying to fill a gap or upgrade existing, and consequently I don't have buckets of low grade coins kicking around, and I'd like it to stay that way.

what do you reckon?

I wasn't having a pop at you Declan and apologise if it came across that way.

I know how you operate and that is exactly how I started. I was lucky that I started out with a lot of capital and a very well paid job. That is how I have the stock that I am sitting on now. I am in no way a large fish, more mid level in the scheme of things, but it builds every year, just as yours does.

The main thrust of my post was aimed at the ignorant masses who still spend way over the odds on common dross because it's old. 1787 shillings I can sell at stupid money on there and 1758's and the sixpences.... none of them are even scarce never mind rare. It never ceases to amaze me how I can get double or treble what I think a coin is worth just by putting it on an ebay auction.

That 1827 penny was awful and £50 would have secured it in virtually any auction room in the country, that's where you have to buy if you want to get bigger. It takes a lot of time but you will find the odd gem among the boxes of crap, we all do or we wouldn't bother buying in auctions ourselves!

Edited April 14, 2011 by argentumandcoins

[Mat 2]

The problem I have with W&W is the issue aired on this forum a couple of years ago when everything was described using ebay standard grading or mis-described lots that they weren't prepared to issue a saleroom notice for. When that happens, you only bid in person having viewed the lots in advance. It helps nobody to return lots because they are not as described, so with there being plenty of fish in the sea you don't bid and move on. The lots may have been accurately graded and described in this instance; I don't know, but given the historical baggage I'm not going to bother finding out unless there is a coin that is on the Hobson's Choice list.

I have had problems with a couple of auction houses describing coins as 'Unc.' that patently were not. They all have their shortcomings which makes distance bids a harrowing process and I now prefer to attend sales as I was being forced to adopt my e-bay stance of 'if they say it's unc, then it's probably no better than EF'. The unfortunate thing is that taking this stance means that you don't actually win much in the higher grades. Fortunately I don't live a million miles from most of the salerooms and can make up my own mind about the lots up for sale. Having said that, the lighting and conditions under which the coins are viewed can be diabolical.

The first ever time I viewed I put my foot in it. Having given over the list of lots I wanted to see and had them passed to me, a VF 6d fell out on the table. As the guy was only a couple of feet away and busy, I quickly called him back as the coin was obviously not one I had requested (the list was mostly UNCs according to the descriptions). He assured me it was correct and so I had a sort of road to Damascus moment when a bright light shone in the sky, the clouds parted and a big finger poked me in the eye. From that moment I saw the true light and understood fully. Another instance was where 2 pattern 1/2ds were listed which were the only gaps in a long run of Peck numbers I needed to fill. One was painted gold and described as gilt, the second a currency piece and showed no characteristics of the purported Peck variety. An enquiry as to whether a notice would be issued in view of the obvious errors was met with a negative. (Mat was there too for that one and also noticed the Christmas tree decoration). A hammered penny described as from Hertford with a mint reading of HEORT despite the coin actually reading HAESTI (Hastings) with the S on its side as normal for that type and clearly from the hoard of about 100 coins of the type from the toning was similarly dismissed when the catalogue error was pointed out well in advance of the sale. The odd mistake you can accept, but to not issue corrections is unforgivably wrong.

Ah yes those lovely guilt proof 1806 and 7 half penny coins, straight from Pound Land with chocolate inside. That was my first visit to w&w in 2008, I went specifically for the 1860 UNC copper penny estimated at £1000 which went for £3200 after fees. I did not realise the lowball estimate tactics back then. Did anyone see how much the 1860 copper went for this time?

[declanwmagee 122]

I wasn't having a pop at you Declan and apologise if it came across that way.

I know how you operate and that is exactly how I started. I was lucky that I started out with a lot of capital and a very well paid job. That is how I have the stock that I am sitting on now. I am in no way a large fish, more mid level in the scheme of things, but it builds every year, just as yours does.

The main thrust of my post was aimed at the ignorant masses who still spend way over the odds on common dross because it's old. 1787 shillings I can sell at stupid money on there and 1758's and the sixpences.... none of them are even scarce never mind rare. It never ceases to amaze me how I can get double or treble what I think a coin is worth just by putting it on an ebay auction.

That 1827 penny was awful and £50 would have secured it in virtually any auction room in the country, that's where you have to buy if you want to get bigger. It takes a lot of time but you will find the odd gem among the boxes of crap, we all do or we wouldn't bother buying in auctions ourselves!

Not at all, John - it wasn't taken that way at all. I experience the same madness as you further down the scale. 1902 LT penny for instance: bought in Feb for £1.94, sold this week for £18.50. Doesn't make any sense at all. If I did a fair and had an F 1902LT Penny on display with that price tag I'd be laughed out of the room, but on ebay I can get away with it.

In that sense we all feed off the ignorant masses, and if it means I can upgrade my E-VII florins beyond the VF level with the cash generated then so be it. It's probably not right, and that does worry me, but if Mr £18.50 is happy with his purchase then all's well. The interesting thing is what such madness is doing to the real world market, and where does it all end. I'm no economist, but if it looks and smells like a bubble, then that's probably what it is.

Yesterday I spent 10 hours pouring concrete, and by the state of my body this morning I know I won't be able to do that in 10 years time - but I could sell coins well into my 90s if I live that long, so in the long term that's what all this is for. I know I need to wean myself off the ebay opium if I am to make this into a serious business, and I really do value your advice, and that of everyone else on here on the best way to do that!

[Cerbera100 0]

the better your stock gets the harder it gets to sell it for a decent price on Ebay...it is a strange phenomenon!!

How very true... I've struggled to get anything like the £30 I'd hope for for a nEF 1887 4s (roman I), but sell bags of junk like 58 1960's pennies for £3.85!

[Rob 3,002]

the better your stock gets the harder it gets to sell it for a decent price on Ebay...it is a strange phenomenon!!

How very true... I've struggled to get anything like the £30 I'd hope for for a nEF 1887 4s (roman I), but sell bags of junk like 58 1960's pennies for £3.85!

At the bottom end it's buyers with a near total lack of knowledge thinking it must be worth more than it is. Think back to the lack of reference material held by most collectors. I would surmise that any thoughts they have about prices are restricted to "if several people think it is worth that much then it must be". i.e.Ebay sets the grade and price. I think that higher grade pieces are the preserve of experienced collectors who may also be wearing rose tinted spectacles at times. If you claim high grade then no one believes you and any grade given will be knocked back a point unless you can build a reputation at which point some of the uninitiated jump on board. Collectors actively seeking the higher grades will not want to rely on the frquently poor images. Better that you have a coin on approval from a dealer or seen in the flesh at a fair. Generally speaking though, mid grade coins (nVF-EF) are the difficult area. You can pick up a middling coin cheaply on ebay because the majority of buyers are in 99p mode, whilst the experienced will want to examine a coin under a glass - certainly so if the grade claimed is EF or thereabouts.

[Rob 3,002]

No. Got my arse kicked soundly on this ugly old thing...

1827 Penny

That looks like a system malfunction at ebay - decimal point's in the wrong place.