Silver book - Davies or Groom?!

[Cerbera100 0]

I'm looking to purchase another book (I have ESC) on silver (particularly varieties) and two leap out at me...

British Silver Coins Since 1816 by Peter J. Davies (I presume this is the 'Davies' that people refer to fairly regularly!) - May 1982

Identification of British 20th Century Silver Coin Varieties by David Groom - July 2010

Any opinions/comments welcome?!

[VickySilver 775]

Yikes. I would like a review of the Groom book and know nothing of it.

[Cerbera100 0]

Yikes. I would like a review of the Groom book and know nothing of it.

Umm... click here for the book's page on a well known internet book seller!

[ski 1]

ive had David groom's book since christmas and its a great read.

The book covers all 20th century varieties of both silver coinage and their cupro nickel replacements and decimal cu-ni coinage. The great thing about the book is the photos. Each variety is shown in a detailed photo of the obverses and reverses,along with descriptions, which make identification real easy.

i got the contact details here on this forum and david quickly dispatched the book once he received payment.

It was at christmas, £9-99 plus £3p+p, great value for money!

heres the link you may wish to read on this forum to get latest prices.

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=5135&st=0&p=38542&fromsearch=1entry38542

i hope that link works okay

ive no connection to David Groom , just a very satisfied customer......i recommend it!!!

[ski 1]

i would like to vote, but there is no selection for both

[declanwmagee 122]

There's no substitute for Davies for the 19th Century, but Mr Groom does a far better job than Davies in the 20th.

There's varieties that Davies doesn't recognise in Groom's, and Davies usually just shows one identifier for each die type, whereas Groom does (and shows) them all - a good long list in some cases. I use Davies for the numbering, and Groom for the ID.

It's a must-have - same goes for the Bronze one, a lot easier to navigate than Freeman.

[Peter 615]

Predecimal?

Real coins are before 1901 To a tooth or a gap Hmmmm.

[1949threepence 3,366]

There's no substitute for Davies for the 19th Century, but Mr Groom does a far better job than Davies in the 20th.

There's varieties that Davies doesn't recognise in Groom's, and Davies usually just shows one identifier for each die type, whereas Groom does (and shows) them all - a good long list in some cases. I use Davies for the numbering, and Groom for the ID.

It's a must-have - same goes for the Bronze one, a lot easier to navigate than Freeman.

That's exactly what I thought, Declan. It's not a fully like for like comparison.

[Peter 615]

I have Davies but never seen David's work.

The real deal is getting varieties into a popular price guide.(well done Peckchris)

Coin monthly picked up loads of varieties for 20C farthings ie 1914,15 but Spink still ignore these....hence there are a handfull of us mugs chasing them around when "Joe dealer" hasn't a clue and no premium is realised....apart from us boys in the know.

[declanwmagee 122]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

[Peckris 579]

I'm looking to purchase another book (I have ESC) on silver (particularly varieties) and two leap out at me...

British Silver Coins Since 1816 by Peter J. Davies (I presume this is the 'Davies' that people refer to fairly regularly!) - May 1982

Identification of British 20th Century Silver Coin Varieties by David Groom - July 2010

Any opinions/comments welcome?!

I've got hold of both in the last year. I can say that Davies is an essential reference work, and you can use his prices to judge relative scarcities. Dave's book is also extremely good, and lists just about every known variety of 20th Century silver. The one thing lacking is ANY way to tell which are the rare or scarce varieties, but it's otherwise essential reading.

With hindsight I'd say get both, but get Davies first, if only because he covers a wider period and gives some indication of what's rare.

[DaveG38 385]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

[1949threepence 3,366]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

One thought in particular, Dave ~ the prospect of a book on Victorian die numbers and overdates. Such a tome would, I am sure, prove very popular within the UK numismatic community. Some background on why overdates were done, and how the dies concerned were altered, etc, would be extremely interesting.

Die numbers are an entire sphere in themselves, and definitely form subsets of collections, or even collections in their own right. I've even thought about zeroing in on a given year of the 1870's and trying to collect all the available die numbers in the shillings issued in that year. If I've thought that, I guarantee other collectors have had similar thoughts.

That would certainly be my choice ~ very worthwhile, but perhaps not quite as daunting a prospect as listing, cataloguiing and photographing every single variation of UK coinage in the 19th century.

[azda 973]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

My opinion on the Victorian silver book is this. Why don't you gather the pictures first, then perhaps the book might not be so daunting, it might take a year or whatever to locate specimens that you require, but then at least you have what you require then set about the task of actually writing. I'm sure people of the forum who collect silver can help with good scans and you can always ask for help if needs be for a specific coin or die number here and hopefully someone might have it if you are struggling.

It probably seems more daunting having to set about both tasks together (pics plus writing) but if you take it at your lesuire and set about gathering the pictures first then the book will probably be the easier part of the whole process

[Cerbera100 0]

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

Wow! The author himself! Well, I hope Amazon give you a good cut, as I've decided to get both your silver and bronze books, as well as Davies!

I'll let you know what I think in a week or so when they arrive - but I dont think I'll be disappointed from what everyone has said!

[Red Riley 2]

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

Dave,

An update of 19th century coins would be a tall order, but to take a bit of it such as overdates would perhaps be more manageable.

I used a large number of images in writing 'The Standard Guide...'. Feel free to use these, as well as any on my website - I also archive pictures of coins I have sold, so always ask if you can't find what you want. I am sure that others on here will help in the same way.

[argentumandcoins 70]

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

Dave,

An update of 19th century coins would be a tall order, but to take a bit of it such as overdates would perhaps be more manageable.

I used a large number of images in writing 'The Standard Guide...'. Feel free to use these, as well as any on my website - I also archive pictures of coins I have sold, so always ask if you can't find what you want. I am sure that others on here will help in the same way.

Any pictures/scans you would like from me you are more than welcome to Dave.

[DaveG38 385]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

For anybody who hasn't spotted it, I meant DRITANNIAR not RRITANNIAR for the 1878 sixpence!

[Peckris 579]

Now if Mr Groom fancied doing a 1797-1899 set, then the urban legends would really get a run for their money...

Declan,

I'm very flattered by the discussions about my two books and you all comparing them in the same space as Freeman and Davies!! My personal view is that any newcomer or general date collector would be well advised to go for Davies and/or Freeman as they cover a wider field than mine. For anybody particularly interested in varieties and the 20th C specifically then clearly my books would be very helpful.

I wrote them primarily because I was confused about all the different identifiers that seemed to be used in different sources, so I brought them all together in one place, as well as establishing some new ones. However, the aim was always to cover 20th C as this was where all my confusion came in. When it comes to 19th C the impression I get is that the identifiers are mostly singletons for a particular date/denomination e.g. the RRITANNIA sixpence of 1878 and these are quite well defined in the standard works. Also, of course Michael Gouby has covered the penny series pretty comprehensively in his book.

However, I have toyed with the idea of 'doing' the earlier centuries. I'm just not sure that I have the patience to do it all over again, as well as tracking down all the types - there's a hell of a lot of them!! Then there's listing and photographing all the differences, not just the well known one and I find it a daunting prospect - god knows how Peck kept going!!! This was quite a task for the 20thC but at least the supply of coins was no problem. When it comes to the earlier ones, the number of specimens to either purchase or ask owners to allow me to photograph could become prohibitive.

Several possibilities have occurred to me as options, but I haven't done anything with either of them. I have toyed with idea of a short book on Victorian die numbers and also with a book to cover overdates for all denominations of milled coinage, with photos of all the types. Again the problem is gaining access to the various specimens as I really can't afford to buy them all. I did consider and then discount a third book in my series to cover gold varieties of the 20th C. Two or three reasons. Firstly there aren't that many different types, so the book would be rather thin. Secondly, not many people collect gold anyway. Thirdly, I doubt that even fewer people collect varieties of gold. Having said this, I was staggered to find that there are three or four types of 1937 Gold £5 piece - I would like to own one of them, but I doubt if many people would collect each of the varieties. Finally, I did wonder about doing something on all the material not covered in my two books, particulartly looking at die cracks, and other faults, mainly for the bronze series.

Any thoughts from the forum on what might be worthwhile?

My opinion on the Victorian silver book is this. Why don't you gather the pictures first, then perhaps the book might not be so daunting, it might take a year or whatever to locate specimens that you require, but then at least you have what you require then set about the task of actually writing. I'm sure people of the forum who collect silver can help with good scans and you can always ask for help if needs be for a specific coin or die number here and hopefully someone might have it if you are struggling.

It probably seems more daunting having to set about both tasks together (pics plus writing) but if you take it at your lesuire and set about gathering the pictures first then the book will probably be the easier part of the whole process

I can let you have pictures of the '8 over 8, distant 7' rare 1887 wreath reverse sixpence, whenever you need it Dave.

[Rob 3,000]

There's no substitute for Davies for the 19th Century, but Mr Groom does a far better job than Davies in the 20th.

There's varieties that Davies doesn't recognise in Groom's, and Davies usually just shows one identifier for each die type, whereas Groom does (and shows) them all - a good long list in some cases. I use Davies for the numbering, and Groom for the ID.

It's a must-have - same goes for the Bronze one, a lot easier to navigate than Freeman.

That's exactly what I thought, Declan. It's not a fully like for like comparison.

I too would like the option of both. It's horses for courses. Unless you have a book which covers the same period and the same type of material, you will inevitably find that both are required. There is no one volume that will do everything for everybody unless you are prepared to have something the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica and more importantly pay for it. When many people refuse to pay £20 for a book, the chances of them paying hundreds isn't worth the effort contemplating. And whatever format is employed or depth of detail included, it still probably won't satisfy most collectors being too much or too little. All publications are equally valid.

[jacinbox 36]

There's no substitute for Davies for the 19th Century, but Mr Groom does a far better job than Davies in the 20th.

There's varieties that Davies doesn't recognise in Groom's, and Davies usually just shows one identifier for each die type, whereas Groom does (and shows) them all - a good long list in some cases. I use Davies for the numbering, and Groom for the ID.

It's a must-have - same goes for the Bronze one, a lot easier to navigate than Freeman.

Is there a Bronze book other than the standard Freeman/Gouby/Peck/Satin?

[Paulus 1,942]

There's no substitute for Davies for the 19th Century, but Mr Groom does a far better job than Davies in the 20th.

There's varieties that Davies doesn't recognise in Groom's, and Davies usually just shows one identifier for each die type, whereas Groom does (and shows) them all - a good long list in some cases. I use Davies for the numbering, and Groom for the ID.

It's a must-have - same goes for the Bronze one, a lot easier to navigate than Freeman.

Is there a Bronze book other than the standard Freeman/Gouby/Peck/Satin?

The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties Paperback – 16 Oct 2009

by David J. Groom

[jacinbox 36]

Thanks Paulus. Order placed