Circulation Life Spans

[The Future 11]

Hi Everyone

As a young child in the early 1980s, I vaguely remember seeing a George V shilling in my piggy bank. I was wondering if anyone knows when coin types fell out of circulation. Here are my complete guesses on florins:

Gothic Florin - 1950s

Edward VII & Victoria Florins - 1960s

George V Florin - 1970s

50% Silver George VI Florins - Mid 1980s

I guess there are three main resaons for falling out of circulation:

1. The coin's metal value or collector's value is more than its currency value

2. The coin is no longer legal tender

3. The coins become so worn they are no longer identitiable

Any more?

If anyone has done any research on this, I'd be very interested.

[SionGilbey 1]

I seem to remember a shopping bag filled with predecimal currency never touched since 1969 contained shillings back to around 1940, most common shilling being 1947 and 8 when they turned into cupro-nickel.

Most of the coins were from the 50s.

Not many preceded 1930.

[Accumulator 52]

As a lad in the pre-decimal late 60s/early 70s I used to collect anything old/unusual found in my change. At that time I would say there were virtually no 92.5% silver (i.e. pre 1920) coins in circulation and not that many pre 1947 (50% silver) coins either. Almost all 'silver' coins were from the 1950s & 60s. Bronze was a different matter.

[Peckris 579]

Hi Everyone

As a young child in the early 1980s, I vaguely remember seeing a George V shilling in my piggy bank. I was wondering if anyone knows when coin types fell out of circulation. Here are my complete guesses on florins:

Gothic Florin - 1950s

Edward VII & Victoria Florins - 1960s

George V Florin - 1970s

50% Silver George VI Florins - Mid 1980s

I guess there are three main resaons for falling out of circulation:

1. The coin's metal value or collector's value is more than its currency value

2. The coin is no longer legal tender

3. The coins become so worn they are no longer identitiable

Any more?

If anyone has done any research on this, I'd be very interested.

Pre-1920 silver is Sterling, i.e. 92.5% solid silver. This was replaced by a 50% alloy in 1920 and the banks recalled the solid silver coins, probably leading to quite a lot of hoarding (which is why George V silver 1911 - 1919 even now turns up in much higher grades than 1920 - 1926.)

By the 1960s, when I began collecting, pre-1920 silver was very rare to find in your change.

Pre-1947 silver is 50% silver and again was recalled from 1947 onwards, and once again, George VI silver 1937 - 1946 is VERY common in high grades, especially 1942 onwards.

In the 1960s, it was by no means unknown to find 1920 - 1946 silver in your change (usually very worn) and though it tailed off gradually, 50% silver still turned up occasionally even as late as the 1980s. The resizing of 10p and 5p coins between 1990 and 1992 put a stop to all that.

By 1920, the value of silver was higher than its face value in coins, which is why the 50% alloy was adopted. The price of silver fell again, but once these things begin there's no going back! The same in 1947 when the price of silver and the cost of War debt, made it urgent to save costs. But many people hoard coins for a whole variety of reasons, some of which feed back into circulation.

Silver halfcrowns, shillings and sixpences were valid from 1816 until well after decimalisation. Florins were valid from 1848. The reason Gothics and Edward VII (for example) dropped out of circulation was 1) they were more collectable 2) they were more noticeable, but most of all 3) became so worn they were withdrawn by banks. Apart from that, each denomination was still legal and valid until its demonetisation point coming up to, or after, decimalisation

[1949threepence 3,366]

Sometime last year there was a thread posted somewhere on the forum. about a World War II fighter plane which had crashed in 1945, here in England. When the wreckage was sifted through (and I can't for the life of me remember what year that was), change was discovered in the pockets of one of the unfortunate RAF men. It was photographed, and I remember thinking that although it was only 1945, silver from just the 1920's, already appeared well worn for its age. So it is no surprise that very little pre 1930 silver was still in circulation by the 1960's. Even more so for pre 1920 92% silver coinage, especially in combination with the hoarding referred to by Peck.

Edited March 23, 2011 by 1949threepence

[Beebman 2]

I recall reading somewhere that in the 1950s there was an urgent need to supply the USA with silver bullion in order to repay the debt from WW2, so silver coins were quite rapidly withdrawn from currency to be melted down for this supply.

[Red Riley 2]

I recall reading somewhere that in the 1950s there was an urgent need to supply the USA with silver bullion in order to repay the debt from WW2, so silver coins were quite rapidly withdrawn from currency to be melted down for this supply.

I alway s come back to the days in the late 60s and early 70s working on the cash desk in my dad's shop. A few random thoughts;

Silver from the whole of George V's reign was pretty common i.e. 1911 up, but it did get scarcer as time went on. The oldest silver I can recall was an 1872 florin (just legible) but that was the only Gothic I ever saw. Anything pre-1911 was pretty scarce.

Pre-1947 silver was still around but getting fairly shabby by that time, say Fine max. Unpleasant to handle as worn coins tend to stick together.

I never saw a 'Standing Britannia' florin in circulation so extrapolating that fact, I would say that the 1950s is way too late for the demise of the Gothic florin. I would guess that other than the odd straggler they dropped out of use around the time of the First World War;

Banks withdraw underweight coins for the simple reason that, certainly at that time, change was weighed into bags and not counted. Worn coins therefore mess up their calculations.

92.5% silver wears very quickly, much more so than today's cupro-nickel issues and after 20 or so years we are perhaps talking Fine. It was not unusual to see at say 1970, the George V Modified Effigy series with the legend at least half worn away.

I find the actual use of coins in circulation and how they wear to be a fairly absorbing topic. More thoughts as they occur to me.

[azda 973]

Sometime last year there was a thread posted somewhere on the forum. about a World War II fighter plane which had crashed in 1945, here in England. When the wreckage was sifted through (and I can't for the life of me remember what year that was), change was discovered in the pockets of one of the unfortunate RAF men. It was photographed, and I remember thinking that although it was only 1945, silver from just the 1920's, already appeared well worn for its age. So it is no surprise that very little pre 1930 silver was still in circulation by the 1960's. Even more so for pre 1920 92% silver coinage, especially in combination with the hoarding referred to by Peck.

Just hazzarding a guess here, but a plane crash at say 200mph coupled with the length of time in the ground, force of impact etc, may account for problematic looking 1920s silver

[Fubar 71]

Sometime last year there was a thread posted somewhere on the forum. about a World War II fighter plane which had crashed in 1945, here in England. When the wreckage was sifted through (and I can't for the life of me remember what year that was), change was discovered in the pockets of one of the unfortunate RAF men. It was photographed, and I remember thinking that although it was only 1945, silver from just the 1920's, already appeared well worn for its age. So it is no surprise that very little pre 1930 silver was still in circulation by the 1960's. Even more so for pre 1920 92% silver coinage, especially in combination with the hoarding referred to by Peck.

That would be me.

It was a Halifax bomber and the change was found scattered around the main impact point.

Admittedly some of it could have fallen out of the pockets of the recovery crew.

Cheers

Kris

[Fubar 71]

[Just hazzarding a guess here, but a plane crash at say 200mph coupled with the length of time in the ground, force of impact etc, may account for problematic looking 1920s silver

The aircraft was only travelling at about 100 to 120 knots approaching the airfield to land when it struck a farm windbreak in thick fog and crashed on return from its 96th operational sortie. This time to Hamburg and back in April 1945.

The coins were found in the 1980s and were all found in the top few inches of soil in a wood. Largely in leaf mould. As can be seen from my previous post the later coins are almost uncirculated. We assume that the dings happened in the crash.

So 40 years in the ground in a mostly sheltered environment with just a few pheasant droppings to add to the mix.

Regards

Kris

[Fubar 71]

This is the site.

The larger surviving bits made it into the field in the foreground.

[Fubar 71]

Within the wood and the area the coins were found.

[scottishmoney 18]

Britain's changeover from sterling to 50% fine silver coinage had much more to do with Britain using silver stocks to pay the USA for war materiels during and right after WWI than the price of silver.

In many ways WWI had a huge effect on coinages around the world. The Latin Monetary Union in Europe, which France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy and Austria-Hungary were signatories to, collapsed leaving only Switzerland and the newly reborn Poland(Zlotych in 1925) and far off Venezuela still using LMU units of currency.

We all know what happened in Germany, but also happened in Austria and Hungary. The Russian ruble collapsed into a myriad of various ruble denominated currencies that rapidly lost value. The Japanese yen began a slide in value.

Only in Switzerland and in the USA did the currencies retain value, and in the long term to the present only the Swiss Franc has held it's relative value and actually appreciated vs. all other currencies.

[Peckris 579]

Britain's changeover from sterling to 50% fine silver coinage had much more to do with Britain using silver stocks to pay the USA for war materiels during and right after WWI than the price of silver.

In many ways WWI had a huge effect on coinages around the world. The Latin Monetary Union in Europe, which France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Italy and Austria-Hungary were signatories to, collapsed leaving only Switzerland and the newly reborn Poland(Zlotych in 1925) and far off Venezuela still using LMU units of currency.

We all know what happened in Germany, but also happened in Austria and Hungary. The Russian ruble collapsed into a myriad of various ruble denominated currencies that rapidly lost value. The Japanese yen began a slide in value.

Only in Switzerland and in the USA did the currencies retain value, and in the long term to the present only the Swiss Franc has held it's relative value and actually appreciated vs. all other currencies.

I'm sure that's right, however it was also true that due to serious inflation caused by the war economy, that the price of silver exceeded its value in coin of the realm, making it impractical to mint sterling silver coins without incurring big losses. But, the inflation ended in a collapse of wages and prices by the mid-20s (which is why the mintage figures for large silver drops off so dramatically between 1924 and 1926), and the price of silver fell again to a value that made it practical to mint sterling grade coins again. However, as I mentioned above, once the 'alloy genie' was out of the bottle there was no going back, and gradual price inflation meant even 50% silver became no longer cost effective.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Peckris

[scottishmoney 18]

However, as I mentioned above, once the 'alloy genie' was out of the bottle there was no going back, and gradual price inflation meant even 50% silver became no longer cost effective.

Indeed, it was as though the Chancellor of the Exchequer had forgotten Thomas Gresham's witty "bad money drives out good money" axiom. Curiously Britain had suspended specie payment during the war, then re-instituted it again and then cancelled it for good by the early 1930's - but the sterling had retained most of it's foreign exchange value until after the devastating financial consequences of WWII took hold in postwar Britain.

I do find it curious that .500 silver coins were circulating into the 1980's particularly after the silver run up in 1979-80 that drove whatever remaining circulating silver in other countries completely out of the picture.

But that said, I went to my local credit union the other day and bought $340 worth of halves that the teller had told me about a couple of days previous. Wow! I am darned glad I did, because I mined out 53 silver halves, 9 of them 90%ers, the others the 1960's era 40% halves. Total silver melt value - $350, a more than 100% return on my very short term investment.

[1949threepence 3,366]

[Just hazzarding a guess here, but a plane crash at say 200mph coupled with the length of time in the ground, force of impact etc, may account for problematic looking 1920s silver

The aircraft was only travelling at about 100 to 120 knots approaching the airfield to land when it struck a farm windbreak in thick fog and crashed on return from its 96th operational sortie. This time to Hamburg and back in April 1945.

The coins were found in the 1980s and were all found in the top few inches of soil in a wood. Largely in leaf mould. As can be seen from my previous post the later coins are almost uncirculated. We assume that the dings happened in the crash.

So 40 years in the ground in a mostly sheltered environment with just a few pheasant droppings to add to the mix.

Regards

Kris

Thanks for the detail clarification, Kris. The deterioration apparent on the 1920's (and earlier) silver, is undoubtedly down to previous wear, and not to exposure or other reasons.

[Peckris 579]

I do find it curious that .500 silver coins were circulating into the 1980's particularly after the silver run up in 1979-80 that drove whatever remaining circulating silver in other countries completely out of the picture.

To be fair, there were precious few (forgive the pun) by then, and only because they hadn't yet been spotted by those who knew what they were. I calculate that I must have found fewer than half a dozen in the entire decade.

[Fubar 71]

Thanks for the detail clarification, Kris. The deterioration apparent on the 1920's (and earlier) silver, is undoubtedly down to previous wear, and not to exposure or other reasons.

The area is the Yorkshire Wolds so there is a shallow covering of soil (up to a metre) over chalk which makes it quite alkaline.

The silver was largely unaffected except for a slight greenish cast and greasy feel to the George VI items.

Some of the bronze coins seem to be covered with what looks like a "glaze" of copper oxide whereas others have no corrosion. In certain instances I've noticed that this can be caused by electrolytic action. If buried close to a dissimilair metal a battery is formed with the damp earth acting as the electrolyte. Most noticeable with aluminium where it acts almost as a sacrificial anode. I suppose the level or lack of corrosion depends on if the item forms the positive or negative pole of such a "battery".

Cheers

Kris