1827 Penny

[SionGilbey 1]

A respectable coin dealer would send it or at least send an apology/letter of explanation with more than one line.

[Red Riley 2]

Have received a message this morning:

"hi there sorry this item was wrongly listed sorry to waste your time,i have relisted the item as it should be once again i am sorry"

No mention of the fact that I have paid for it and that legally it is mine! As I say, I'm not out to ruin anyone's day but there's a right and wrong way to deal with your mistakes. Hope I'm not coming across as awkward but at least some recognition of my payment wouldn't come amiss.

I do have some sympathy with him but perhaps the way to have dealt with it would have been an abject apology, refund your money and give you a £10 voucher off your next purchase. Not in accordance with the letter of the law I know, but it may go some way towards pouring oil on troubled waters. You knew it was a mistake. He knew that you knew it was a mistake, so there are probably some grounds for a friendly handshake and move on.

If it was a mega-corporation (or perhaps a large dealer that we all know...) I'd suggest you see your solicitor but a little guy like this? Hmmm...

[azda 973]

RAPE HIM lol........

In all seriousness i'm not sure what i would do right now, he listed for a quid and now up for resale at 495 and not a decent apology or explaination etc etc etc. I'd drop him a line saying the coin he's selling is now your property by the contract of ebay and what's he gonna do about it? See what happens, plus he's not mention the cash you paid.

[Accumulator 52]

RAPE HIM lol........

In all seriousness i'm not sure what i would do right now, he listed for a quid and now up for resale at 495 and not a decent apology or explaination etc etc etc. I'd drop him a line saying the coin he's selling is now your property by the contract of ebay and what's he gonna do about it? See what happens, plus he's not mention the cash you paid.

Azda, just noticed the signature link to your collection on Omnicoin. You have some nice pennies... and also a few gaps. What's your plan? A complete date run, or are you collecting all the Freeman varieties too?

[azda 973]

RAPE HIM lol........

In all seriousness i'm not sure what i would do right now, he listed for a quid and now up for resale at 495 and not a decent apology or explaination etc etc etc. I'd drop him a line saying the coin he's selling is now your property by the contract of ebay and what's he gonna do about it? See what happens, plus he's not mention the cash you paid.

Azda, just noticed the signature link to your collection on Omnicoin. You have some nice pennies... and also a few gaps. What's your plan? A complete date run, or are you collecting all the Freeman varieties too?

Going for the date run 1st accumulator, then looking for varities later, but as always, trying to get the best i can afford first, once i'm happy with that then looking for various others. 1 or 2 on there i've sold, but i've kept the pictures because they were nice coins.

Edited February 26, 2011 by azda

[TomGoodheart 373]

As I say, if he's said 'terribly sorry but I made a huge c*ockup as you'll no doubt have realised so I've refunded your money straight away and while I'd rather you didn't I'll quite understand if you leave neg feedback for me but I'm afraid I can't afford to take a £500 loss' I'd be inclined to feel sympathetic and take it no further.

And maybe he feels that's what he's said. But it comes across a little short of a fullsome apology and I think I'd feel a wee bit miffed even so. And expect my money back without having to ask for it.

[Cerbera100 0]

Have received a message this morning:

"hi there sorry this item was wrongly listed sorry to waste your time,i have relisted the item as it should be once again i am sorry"

No mention of the fact that I have paid for it and that legally it is mine! As I say, I'm not out to ruin anyone's day but there's a right and wrong way to deal with your mistakes. Hope I'm not coming across as awkward but at least some recognition of my payment wouldn't come amiss.

Simple... Report him!

Point 1 - "sorry this item was wrongly listed" - ok fine, we all make mistakes!

Point 2 - "sorry to waste your time" - yep, and my refund will be arriving when?!

Point 3 - "i have relisted the item as it should be" - WHAT?! This is almost on a par with those annoying letters you get... You've won £1,000,000 - just send me a cheque for £100 to claim it!

Bear in mind that with Paypal (which I presume you used) the seller is automatically guilty (someone else said that somewhere - please dont do me for plagiarism!).

Yes he's small-fry, but as everyone has said, no decent apology, no hint of a refund and a concession for wasted time would be nice!

Sorry, but I've been bum-raped as a seller for significantly less!

[Accumulator 52]

Ok, well things have moved on...

First I have a message from the seller:

i am sorry i made a stupid mistake i put it right there is no way i will let such a rare coin go for £1 you will of course have to report me to ebay (I hadn't threatened to do this!) i undestand that i am sorry.

Then I received a refund of my £6 from PayPal.

Then I received a message from eBay:

xxxxx recently opened a case to cancel a transaction for an item you recently purchased.

Reason for request to cancel the transaction: The seller did not provide a specific reason.

Seller comment: I made an error when listing the item. The £1 was supposed to be the starting price with a "buy it now" at £495. I do apologise, but there is no way that I could afford to let this item go at £1. As a gesture of goodwill, I Would be prepared to sell it for £395 to yourself only as this is what I paid for it.

Click the 'Respond now' button to accept or decline this cancellation.

If you don't take action by 05-Mar-2011, the seller will be able to cancel the purchase without your consent.

I will probably let him off the hook because, to be honest, I wouldn't choose a coin in this condition.

Edited February 26, 2011 by Accumulator

[azda 973]

Ok, well things have moved on...

First I have a message from the seller:

i am sorry i made a stupid mistake i put it right there is no way i will let such a rare coin go for £1 you will of course have to report me to ebay (I hadn't threatened to do this!) i undestand that i am sorry.

Then I received a refund of my £6 from PayPal.

Then I received a message from eBay:

xxxxx recently opened a case to cancel a transaction for an item you recently purchased.

Reason for request to cancel the transaction: The seller did not provide a specific reason.

Seller comment: I made an error when listing the item. The £1 was supposed to be the starting price with a "buy it now" at £495. I do apologise, but there is no way that I could afford to let this item go at £1. As a gesture of goodwill, I Would be prepared to sell it for £395 to yourself only as this is what I paid for it.

Click the 'Respond now' button to accept or decline this cancellation.

If you don't take action by 05-Mar-2011, the seller will be able to cancel the purchase without your consent.

I will probably let him off the hook because, to be honest, I wouldn't choose a coin in this condition.

What was the condition? The coin linked initially looked quite good.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Sorry, but I've been bum-raped as a seller for significantly less!

I spat my coffee at the screen when I read that, and I'm still laughing now.

You poor man, that seems a little harsh....

[Accumulator 52]

I spat my coffee at the screen when I read that, and I'm still laughing now.

You poor man, that seems a little harsh....

:D

Well, I sent him a message back suggesting we talk on the phone and come to some agreement. To be honest, I was probably just going to let it go but his response to my message was "do whatever you feel you need to", with no mention of speaking. I'm not over impressed now.

[1949threepence 3,366]

It is his mistake...the way he has acted is pathetic.

Report him to Ebay.

I once won a GVF gothic florin for £10 as England were playing in the world cup & yes he claimed he had misplaced it.

I totally 100% agree. If I was the vendor, I would honour the sale, even at £1.00. Torcoins made a silly error, and as a result, Accumulator won it fair and square. As the seller I would take the hit and preserve my reputation for integrity, even in the face of "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune".

Piece of good luck for the buyer, piece of bad luck for the seller. But these things tend to even themselves out over time, in the coin market.

Reluctant as I am to leave negative feedback, this is one occasion when, as the buyer, I definitely would ~ especially in the absence of a decent apology. No buyer would be acting unreasonably to do so, and to be frank the seller is completely snookered when it comes to a meaningful reply. His honesty is well and truly compromised, and everybody would know it.

Edited February 27, 2011 by 1949threepence

[Gary D 76]

It is his mistake...the way he has acted is pathetic.

Report him to Ebay.

I once won a GVF gothic florin for £10 as England were playing in the world cup & yes he claimed he had misplaced it.

I totally 100% agree. If I was the vendor, I would honour the sale, even at £1.00. The seller made a silly error, and Accumulator won it fair and square. As the seller I would take the hit and preserve my reputation for integrity, even in the face of "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune".

Piece of good luck for the buyer, piece of bad luck for the seller. But these things tend to even themselves out over time, in the coin market.

Reluctant as I am to leave negative feedback, this is one occasion when, as the buyer, I definitely would. No buyer would be acting unreasonably to do so, and to be frank the seller is completely snookered when it comes to a meaningful reply. His honesty is well and truly compromised, and everybody would know it.

Just trying to provoke discussion here not take sides, but isn't the seller just making an offer for sale and is not under any compulsion to accept a buyers offer. It's a bit like goods in a shop labelled incorrectly, you go to buy the goods and the shop keeper can refuse to sell the item to you and unless they take your money there's no sale. I can see the problem with the likes of paypal but by sending the seller your money you are only offering to buy, if they turn your money around no sale has happened. Now if they spent your money the sale would have been accepted.

[1949threepence 3,366]

It is his mistake...the way he has acted is pathetic.

Report him to Ebay.

I once won a GVF gothic florin for £10 as England were playing in the world cup & yes he claimed he had misplaced it.

I totally 100% agree. If I was the vendor, I would honour the sale, even at £1.00. The seller made a silly error, and Accumulator won it fair and square. As the seller I would take the hit and preserve my reputation for integrity, even in the face of "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune".

Piece of good luck for the buyer, piece of bad luck for the seller. But these things tend to even themselves out over time, in the coin market.

Reluctant as I am to leave negative feedback, this is one occasion when, as the buyer, I definitely would. No buyer would be acting unreasonably to do so, and to be frank the seller is completely snookered when it comes to a meaningful reply. His honesty is well and truly compromised, and everybody would know it.

Just trying to provoke discussion here not take sides, but isn't the seller just making an offer for sale and is not under any compulsion to accept a buyers offer. It's a bit like goods in a shop labelled incorrectly, you go to buy the goods and the shop keeper can refuse to sell the item to you and unless they take your money there's no sale. I can see the problem with the likes of paypal but by sending the seller your money you are only offering to buy, if they turn your money around no sale has happened. Now if they spent your money the sale would have been accepted.

I'm not sure. We need an expert on the law of contract ~ especially with regard to paypal and immediate payment. Even then, the money leaves your bank account instantly, but is it immediately available to the seller ?

Legal minefield, anyone ?

[azda 973]

Paypal cash is an immediate payment

[1949threepence 3,366]

It is his mistake...the way he has acted is pathetic.

Report him to Ebay.

I once won a GVF gothic florin for £10 as England were playing in the world cup & yes he claimed he had misplaced it.

I totally 100% agree. If I was the vendor, I would honour the sale, even at £1.00. The seller made a silly error, and Accumulator won it fair and square. As the seller I would take the hit and preserve my reputation for integrity, even in the face of "the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune".

Piece of good luck for the buyer, piece of bad luck for the seller. But these things tend to even themselves out over time, in the coin market.

Reluctant as I am to leave negative feedback, this is one occasion when, as the buyer, I definitely would. No buyer would be acting unreasonably to do so, and to be frank the seller is completely snookered when it comes to a meaningful reply. His honesty is well and truly compromised, and everybody would know it.

Just trying to provoke discussion here not take sides, but isn't the seller just making an offer for sale and is not under any compulsion to accept a buyers offer. It's a bit like goods in a shop labelled incorrectly, you go to buy the goods and the shop keeper can refuse to sell the item to you and unless they take your money there's no sale. I can see the problem with the likes of paypal but by sending the seller your money you are only offering to buy, if they turn your money around no sale has happened. Now if they spent your money the sale would have been accepted.

I'm not sure. We need an expert on the law of contract ~ especially with regard to paypal and immediate payment. Even then, the money leaves your bank account instantly, but is it immediately available to the seller ?

Legal minefield, anyone ?

Actually, on further reflection, wouldn't there be an implied acceptance of offer by the vendor ? The request to pay exists immediately after any win or buy it now. So surely the contract is closed in the buyer's favour as soon as payment for the item is made ?

[ski 1]

Actually, on further reflection, wouldn't there be an implied acceptance of offer by the vendor ? The request to pay exists immediately after any win or buy it now. So surely the contract is closed in the buyer's favour as soon as payment for the item is made ?

i feel this may be more correct, theres a difference between going into a shop and a shopkeeper saying he doesnt want to sell you his item and not taking your cash from you, but this guy has accepted payment.

there was a case a few years back when i cannot remember exactly if it was currys or comets, advertised on ebay tv's at 99p instead of £99, some guy bought something like a 100 and it went to court and the guy got his tellys.there was nothing the vendor could do, he;d paid for them at the asking price.

if this were me, i would accept in the first instance the biggest ass licking apology and refund, if that wasnt forthcoming.......i would want my coin!!.

[Mat 2]

Expert on contract law...

First you need to determine which piece of legislation covers the transaction:

Is the seller a business or acting in the course of a business (acting in the course of a business can only be determined by the courts where intention and frequency of sales will come into question). If yes then the Sale of Goods Act 1979 is applicable and Distance Selling Regulations 2000 for none auction format items.

In auction format, a seller is legally obligated to honour the transaction regardless of the price it sells for, however if the seller can prove that there was a description error, the court shall usually deem the transaction void because no contract shall exist if the buyer is trying to contract for something that is actually something else no matter who would benefit! However if the seller states that the item has been misplaced, then the seller is obligated to offer an item of equal specification regardless of value. However as that may be a little impractical with coins, courts may have to refer to case law and base their decision on previous cases.

In fixed price format the law is entirely different. In the case of the 1827 penny the seller is under no legal obligation whatsoever to honour the transaction. The law does not allow someone to profit from a transaction where there is a clear error. Now this is the complex bit as there are many factors:

The court will determine the buyers 'reasonable skill and knowledge' in the subject matter, ie assess whether the buyer clearly knew the £1 buy it now was likely to have been an error or not. If the court found that the buyer was a novice and knew nothing about coins, the buyer would have a marginally stronger case but would still not win as the next factor will now be considered:

The court would need evidence from the seller that there was a listing error in the price, this is obviously easy to prove as he could use records of other 1827 penny sales, coin price guides, his receipt of when he bought it etc... Then case simply closed, seller would win hands down.

However of the coin was listed at £100 but the seller will not honour it because he has made a price error, the court would need more evidence of the error. In this situation an independent expert would be drawn upon to determine if £100 is the industry average for this item in this condition, also the sellers original buying cost and average business margins may be taken into consideration to see if £100 really would be his selling price.

Now for sellers that are not a business or not acting in the course of a business:

None of the above law applies, SOGA, DSRs and Consumer protection from unfair regs 2008 will only apply to a business.

Only common law and the basic elements of contract law shall apply in this situation. The court would take a much more practical view on the case: They would order the transaction void as there is any sort of conflict, they would deem that the buyer has not lost and not gained and same for the seller, and especially If they feel that the buyer is exploiting a genuine error, the seller would usually always win. If the seller does not return the buyers money in a reasonable time, (court would determine what is reasonable), the court would order the seller to return the money, NOT order him to honour the transaction.

And a little bit of case law to back up the above.... Argos accidently sold some TV sets for £2.99 which they did not have to honour:

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/ARGOS+FACE+LEGAL+BATTLE+OVER+pounds+3+TV+SETS+BLUNDER.-a060352139

And Debenhams issued £10 off £25 vouchers which should have been off £50 which does sound a little more plausible which some of them they might have been honoured... again this is where buyers 'reasonable skill and knowledge' in the subject matter comes in to play:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2008/mar/29/consumeraffairs

I hope I have enlightened you all on the joys of contract law! If the 1827 was being sold from an EU country DSRs would have to be used to determine the case.

[1949threepence 3,366]

Actually, on further reflection, wouldn't there be an implied acceptance of offer by the vendor ? The request to pay exists immediately after any win or buy it now. So surely the contract is closed in the buyer's favour as soon as payment for the item is made ?

i feel this may be more correct, theres a difference between going into a shop and a shopkeeper saying he doesnt want to sell you his item and not taking your cash from you, but this guy has accepted payment.

there was a case a few years back when i cannot remember exactly if it was currys or comets, advertised on ebay tv's at 99p instead of £99, some guy bought something like a 100 and it went to court and the guy got his tellys.there was nothing the vendor could do, he;d paid for them at the asking price.

if this were me, i would accept in the first instance the biggest ass licking apology and refund, if that wasnt forthcoming.......i would want my coin!!.

Yes, now you mention it, I remember that, ski.

Like you, I'd probably accept a grovelling apology and some token gesture, such as the £10 suggested by Derek. But really, the seller should stick to the rules, mistake or otherwise.

edit: thanks for the legal clarifications, Scott. Obviously e bay's insistence that a binding contract is made as soon as a BIN offer is made, should be taken with a health warning.

Edited February 27, 2011 by 1949threepence

[Accumulator 52]

As I said before, I'm not looking to ruin anyone's day so, on reflection, I decided I would quite like the coin and would be prepared to pay more for it. As I compromise I have suggested a figure which is more than half the £495 that he is currently listing at. The seller has accepted this. Hopefully the transaction will complete smoothly now!

The comments on contractual law are very interesting but it's a hard one to call. The seller represents himself as a business and certainly trades as one, but of course may not be registered as such with HMRC . Also there are the eBay rules which clearly state that both parties have entered into a legally-binding contract. To make matters more complicated, eBay is, I believe, registered in Luxembourg (or somewhere similarly remote) so presumably local/EU law applies. Anyway, hopefully all this academic now and we have reached an amicable agreement.

[Gary D 76]

Actually, on further reflection, wouldn't there be an implied acceptance of offer by the vendor ? The request to pay exists immediately after any win or buy it now. So surely the contract is closed in the buyer's favour as soon as payment for the item is made ?

i feel this may be more correct, theres a difference between going into a shop and a shopkeeper saying he doesnt want to sell you his item and not taking your cash from you, but this guy has accepted payment.

there was a case a few years back when i cannot remember exactly if it was currys or comets, advertised on ebay tv's at 99p instead of £99, some guy bought something like a 100 and it went to court and the guy got his tellys.there was nothing the vendor could do, he;d paid for them at the asking price.

if this were me, i would accept in the first instance the biggest ass licking apology and refund, if that wasnt forthcoming.......i would want my coin!!.

Yes, now you mention it, I remember that, ski.

Like you, I'd probably accept a grovelling apology and some token gesture, such as the £10 suggested by Derek. But really, the seller should stick to the rules, mistake or otherwise.

edit: thanks for the legal clarifications, Scott. Obviously e bay's insistence that a binding contract is made as soon as a BIN offer is made, should be taken with a health warning.

I assume there is also a big difference with winning an auction and paying immediately compared to waiting for the sellers invioce before paying. I know if I think I've made a steal I bang in the payment before the seller has had time to think about it. Picked up a UNC 1956 1/2d F475 the other day for $5, was on the edge of my seat until it arrived.lol.

[ski 1]

we have reached an amicable agreement.

thats excellent news

[Peter 615]

we have reached an amicable agreement.

thats excellent news

Sense prevails Maybe its a lesson for all of us.

[Peckris 579]

I assume there is also a big difference with winning an auction and paying immediately compared to waiting for the sellers invioce before paying. I know if I think I've made a steal I bang in the payment before the seller has had time to think about it. Picked up a UNC 1956 1/2d F475 the other day for $5, was on the edge of my seat until it arrived.lol.

Lucky sod. I've never even SEEN one of those 1956 varieties.

[scott 129]

i dont even know what they look like to find them