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1922 Penny with rev of 1927


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#1 Accumulator

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:38 PM

Ok here goes, what I have as my F192A. I've shown another 1922 in similar condition for comparison purposes. Freeman has it as rarity R18.

There are several differences from the common F192, but the easiest to spot are:
Centre prong of trident below a border tooth, not touching it
Shield closer to Britannia (so further from edge of coin and more sea showing)
Britannia's thumb higher up the George Cross
The lower edge of Britannia's outstretched arm curves upwards (instead of downwards) from her body

This is a penny I found amongst many old slot machine coins I searched, so not something I have paid for (well one penny, I suppose). I'm posting to ask whether others believe it's really as rare as Freeman states? Any comments or comparative info much appreciated.

F192 on the left, F192A on the right.

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#2 Accumulator

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:44 PM

Just realised it's very hard to compare two separate images, so here's a single image with the coins side by side, F192A on the right:

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  • Attached File  1922.jpg   128.61KB   130 downloads


#3 Peckris

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:46 PM

Ok here goes, what I have as my F192A. I've shown another 1922 in similar condition for comparison purposes. Freeman has it as rarity R18.

There are several differences from the common F192, but the easiest to spot are:
Centre prong of trident below a border tooth, not touching it
Shield closer to Britannia (so further from edge of coin and more sea showing)
Britannia's thumb higher up the George Cross
The lower edge of Britannia's outstretched arm curves upwards (instead of downwards) from her body

This is a penny I found amongst many old slot machine coins I searched, so not something I have paid for (well one penny, I suppose). I'm posting to ask whether others believe it's really as rare as Freeman states? Any comments or comparative info much appreciated.

F192 on the left, F192A on the right.



I have no real idea of rarity except that a few people in this forum say they have one. I haven't. I want one! But I'm not cashing in my pension to buy one ;)

#4 argentumandcoins

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:47 PM

Ok here goes, what I have as my F192A. I've shown another 1922 in similar condition for comparison purposes. Freeman has it as rarity R18.

There are several differences from the common F192, but the easiest to spot are:
Centre prong of trident below a border tooth, not touching it
Shield closer to Britannia (so further from edge of coin and more sea showing)
Britannia's thumb higher up the George Cross
The lower edge of Britannia's outstretched arm curves upwards (instead of downwards) from her body

This is a penny I found amongst many old slot machine coins I searched, so not something I have paid for (well one penny, I suppose). I'm posting to ask whether others believe it's really as rare as Freeman states? Any comments or comparative info much appreciated.

F192 on the left, F192A on the right.


It's as rare as hens teeth. I have only had one and stupidly sold it 6 or so years ago before I started to focus the collection.
I have not seen one offered for the past 5 years.
If you want to sell/part ex for something send me a PM.

#5 Red Riley

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:54 PM

I haven't checked your assessment, but assuming you are right, it is an extremely rare coin and moreover is one of the most sought after of the 20th century penny varieties. Given the current condition of the market and some less than exciting pennies recently sold at auction for phenomenal figures, it could be worth thousands.

#6 Peckris

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 10:58 PM

I haven't checked your assessment, but assuming you are right, it is an extremely rare coin and moreover is one of the most sought after of the 20th century penny varieties. Given the current condition of the market and some less than exciting pennies recently sold at auction for phenomenal figures, it could be worth thousands.



Like I said ...

#7 Accumulator

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:05 PM

Thank you for your comments. I really don't plan to sell it though, but it's interesting to get a feel for relative rarity.

Now to something that has confused me. According to Spink (4054A) there's a 1922 Penny with modified effigy. It's not mentioned in Freeman though. Spink states "shorter index finger". Does anyone know more about this coin?

#8 Peckris

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:13 PM

Thank you for your comments. I really don't plan to sell it though, but it's interesting to get a feel for relative rarity.

Now to something that has confused me. According to Spink (4054A) there's a 1922 Penny with modified effigy. It's not mentioned in Freeman though. Spink states "shorter index finger". Does anyone know more about this coin?



If they state "shorter index finger" in relation to "modified effigy", they are talking about Britannia's effigy (typical Spink confusion - ironically the 1926ME penny uses the old Britannia not the 1927 reverse!).

#9 Accumulator

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:20 PM

If they state "shorter index finger" in relation to "modified effigy", they are talking about Britannia's effigy (typical Spink confusion - ironically the 1926ME penny uses the old Britannia not the 1927 reverse!).


Sorry, I actually tried to edit my post to make it clear I meant Britannia's finger, not George V's! :) The ability to edit some posts but not others seems a bit random!

That's the confusion. Spink suggests that both versions of Britannia are possible with the ME obverse for 1926 & 1927. At least that's how I read it. For 1922 you also have an ME, according to them, but "of the highest rarity". Anyone know about these?

#10 Peckris

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:23 PM


If they state "shorter index finger" in relation to "modified effigy", they are talking about Britannia's effigy (typical Spink confusion - ironically the 1926ME penny uses the old Britannia not the 1927 reverse!).


Sorry, I actually tried to edit my post to make it clear I meant Britannia's finger, not George V's! :) The ability to edit some posts but not others seems a bit random!

That's the confusion. Spink suggests that both versions of Britannia are possible with the ME obverse for 1926 & 1927. At least that's how I read it. For 1922 you also have an ME, according to them, but "of the highest rarity". Anyone know about these?



I assumed the 1922 "ME" was Britannia, i.e. 1927 reverse ? That's what I was trying to say.

#11 Accumulator

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Posted 17 February 2011 - 11:30 PM

I assumed the 1922 "ME" was Britannia, i.e. 1927 reverse ? That's what I was trying to say.


I don't think so, at least that's not how I read it. It appears they list the following for 1922:

Type 4051 - 1922 Penny (the common one, F192)
Type 4051 - 1922 Penny with Rev. of 1927 (my F192A)
Type 4054A - 1922 Penny Obv: ME, Rev: Shorter index finger (not listed in Freeman)

#12 davidrj

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:20 AM

[quote name='Accumulator' timestamp='1297982334' post='48801']

There are several differences from the common F192, but the easiest to spot are:
Centre prong of trident below a border tooth, not touching it
Shield closer to Britannia (so further from edge of coin and more sea showing)
Britannia's thumb higher up the George Cross
The lower edge of Britannia's outstretched arm curves upwards (instead of downwards) from her body

/quote]

Also direction of the wave below the shield
Rocks different
Different border teeth too I think

Very interesting penny!!!!

:)

David

#13 scott

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:57 AM

looks like one to me, i think the giveaway are teeth instead of beads

#14 VickySilver

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 04:21 AM

I also have gone with the teeth as an ID. The so called ME 1922 Rev. 1927 was I think derived from a DNW sale (RobP would probably know this!).

These (the 1922 rev 1927) are considered rare and above F prohibitively so.

I have often wondered how much one of the two SPECIMEN strikes of this would go for at a London Auction??

Edited by VickySilver, 18 February 2011 - 04:22 AM.


#15 Accumulator

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:22 AM

I also have gone with the teeth as an ID. The so called ME 1922 Rev. 1927 was I think derived from a DNW sale (RobP would probably know this!).

These (the 1922 rev 1927) are considered rare and above F prohibitively so.

I have often wondered how much one of the two SPECIMEN strikes of this would go for at a London Auction??


I think I've found what I was looking for Here See the archive of Coin News May 2006 p.27. Someone here may have a copy of the original article?

So the 1922 penny with ME obverse and 1927 reverse is considered unique. The only one being sold by London Coins in 2006. Hence it's not in Freeman but in the newer Spink guides. To clarify, mine is the 'more common' version with the standard 1922 obverse.

Edited by Accumulator, 18 February 2011 - 10:23 AM.


#16 VickySilver

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 12:52 PM

I would be very tempted to get some of that verdigris off of that coin. Except for that, this may be one of the higher grades known, or at least that I am aware of. VERY NICE!

If you do clean, obviously be very conservative. I bit of olive oil most would not object to, there are some copper coin agents that are mainly detergent and not acidic as well.
I think I would have to join those who would toss their hats in the ring for a shot at this one....

#17 Gary

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:07 PM

Ok here goes, what I have as my F192A. I've shown another 1922 in similar condition for comparison purposes. Freeman has it as rarity R18.

This is a penny I found amongst many old slot machine coins I searched, so not something I have paid for (well one penny, I suppose). I'm posting to ask whether others believe it's really as rare as Freeman states? Any comments or comparative info much appreciated.


Ouch! I have never seen one of these or seen one offered for sale. If I did see one then I would expect it to be in a worse condition than that one. Very nice find and free at that! Freeman states the rarity at R18 (6-15 known) this could be the 16th so you have dropped the rating to R17 :D Who knows what that could bring at auction!!


I would be very tempted to get some of that verdigris off of that coin. Except for that, this may be one of the higher grades known, or at least that I am aware of. VERY NICE!

If you do clean, obviously be very conservative. I bit of olive oil most would not object to, there are some copper coin agents that are mainly detergent and not acidic as well.
I think I would have to join those who would toss their hats in the ring for a shot at this one....



The Verdigris seems to be superficial (still soft) and should be easy to remove, carefully but I would have to disagree with with Vickysilver about using copper coin agents on this coin due to it rarity!
Pennies and Halfpennies

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#18 Red Riley

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 01:21 PM


Ok here goes, what I have as my F192A. I've shown another 1922 in similar condition for comparison purposes. Freeman has it as rarity R18.

This is a penny I found amongst many old slot machine coins I searched, so not something I have paid for (well one penny, I suppose). I'm posting to ask whether others believe it's really as rare as Freeman states? Any comments or comparative info much appreciated.


Ouch! I have never seen one of these or seen one offered for sale. If I did see one then I would expect it to be in a worse condition than that one. Very nice find and free at that! Freeman states the rarity at R18 (6-15 known) this could be the 16th so you have dropped the rating to R17 :D Who knows what that could bring at auction!!


I would be very tempted to get some of that verdigris off of that coin. Except for that, this may be one of the higher grades known, or at least that I am aware of. VERY NICE!

If you do clean, obviously be very conservative. I bit of olive oil most would not object to, there are some copper coin agents that are mainly detergent and not acidic as well.
I think I would have to join those who would toss their hats in the ring for a shot at this one....



The Verdigris seems to be superficial (still soft) and should be easy to remove, carefully but I would have to disagree with with Vickysilver about using copper coin agents on this coin due to it rarity!

Personally I would be inclined to leave it. That way, the onus passes to the new owner and given its rarity, it's really a case of whether you want it or not, the condition being of only minor importance. I suppose the obverse isn't smothered with the green stuff?

#19 VickySilver

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 05:12 PM

Yes, point well taken. If however the verdigris is allowed to remain there may be increased likelihood of penetration into the crystalline structure of the flans metal. This can, depending on local environment take place rapidly.

Derek's point (and Gary's) is well taken, that is that cleaning should not be taken lightly - like the pun? However, if you are rightfully squeamish you would not lose by a bath in hot water with mild detergent followed by liberal irrigation and tamp dry with a white cotton towel - NO RUBBING!!!!

It is difficult to describe in words other than the simplest of measures but I have "conserved" many copper coins with great effect but will state that some experience is quite useful and great care must be taken. As a side note, some coins that have looked hopeless end up with great results and others that looked not so much of a problem that were not helped significantly (though not harmed). The overall recommendations given above I agree with - if you are not comfortable do not touch...

#20 Accumulator

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:47 PM

Thank you all for your views on the relative rarity and also your comments on possible conservation methods.

Firstly, I really am not looking to sell. I've had the coin for many years and it's an important part of my collection. My interest in coins spans several decades but, like many, interest is cyclic and only in recent times have I had the opportunity and inclination to go through some of my old coins again. E-bay and this forum have been a catalyst in that process. I'm now very much in an acquisitive phase so more interested in filling gaps/upgrading than parting with anything except duplicates. Indeed, I have made a few new purchases over the last few months.

Regarding the verdigris, the truth is I hadn't even noticed until I scanned the coin in preparation for posting. I know that sounds incredible, but sometimes coins remain out of sight for years. I will think about using olive oil as I'm familiar with this, but won't be using any other patent dips or cleaning agents other than a mild detergent and distilled water.

I haven't scanned the obverse but it seems mercifully free of any verdigris whatsoever.

#21 Accumulator

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 09:49 PM

Thank you all for your views on the relative rarity and also your comments on possible conservation methods.

Firstly, I really am not looking to sell. I've had the coin for many years and it's an important part of my collection. My interest in coins spans several decades but, like many, interest is cyclic and only in recent times have I had the opportunity and inclination to go through some of my old coins again. E-bay and this forum have been a catalyst in that process. I'm now very much in an acquisitive phase so more interested in filling gaps/upgrading than parting with anything except duplicates. Indeed, I have made a few new purchases over the last few months.

Regarding the verdigris, the truth is I hadn't even noticed until I scanned the coin in preparation for posting. I know that sounds incredible, but sometimes coins remain out of sight for years. I will think about using olive oil as I'm familiar with this, but won't be using any other patent dips or cleaning agents other than a mild detergent and distilled water.

I haven't scanned the obverse but it seems mercifully free of any verdigris whatsoever.

#22 Peckris

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 10:40 PM


I assumed the 1922 "ME" was Britannia, i.e. 1927 reverse ? That's what I was trying to say.


I don't think so, at least that's not how I read it. It appears they list the following for 1922:

Type 4051 - 1922 Penny (the common one, F192)
Type 4051 - 1922 Penny with Rev. of 1927 (my F192A)
Type 4054A - 1922 Penny Obv: ME, Rev: Shorter index finger (not listed in Freeman)




I also have gone with the teeth as an ID. The so called ME 1922 Rev. 1927 was I think derived from a DNW sale (RobP would probably know this!).

These (the 1922 rev 1927) are considered rare and above F prohibitively so.

I have often wondered how much one of the two SPECIMEN strikes of this would go for at a London Auction??


I think I've found what I was looking for Here See the archive of Coin News May 2006 p.27. Someone here may have a copy of the original article?

So the 1922 penny with ME obverse and 1927 reverse is considered unique. The only one being sold by London Coins in 2006. Hence it's not in Freeman but in the newer Spink guides. To clarify, mine is the 'more common' version with the standard 1922 obverse.



I followed the link and read up. I have to say I am very very very very very suspicious indeed. The earliest known 'test run' of the modified effigy was the second issue 1925 halfpenny. If the Modified Effigy existed in 1922, why was it not used for halfpennies* from either 1922 or 1923 onwards? Why was the 1926 penny - 4 years after a putative 1922ME not completely ME for its issue? And why would a modified effigy be worked on in 1922, only a bare 2 years after the 'shallow portrait' was meant to address the ghosting problem, and then shelved for three to four years? (* not to mention farthings and all the silver denominations).

So these are my follow-up thoughts. We all know that 1933 pennies are expertly faked from genuine 1932s or 1935s or 1930s. I've seen two on eBay that had me totally fooled even though I KNEW they weren't genuine. My idea is that this 1922ME was expertly faked from a 1927 (7 could become 2 without too much hassle).

As for all the 'experts', just answer me this : how many decades did it take for Piltdown Man to be exposed completely for the fraud it was? People get so excited about unknown varieties, they end up seeing what they want to see - Emperor's New Clothes.

I'm not saying it's definitely 100% a fake, but without full 100% R.M. authentication, I'm not really buying into it.

Edited by Peckris, 18 February 2011 - 10:48 PM.


#23 Bernie

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 05:50 AM

The pictured 1922 F192A is brilliant!
As far as I am aware (from the reverse picture) this is the second best known of this variety, the best is only marginally better.(need to see a picture of the obverse)

Value could be anything between £2000-£5000 depending who bids for it!
The dies used on this variety, Freeman Cat. obverse 3 with pattern reverse C* The other even rarer, so far unique, is definately real, the coin has the obverse Modified effigy obverse 4 with reverse die C, the exact die design used for the 1927 pennies.
A third die pair exists but was only used as far as is known to produce two proof pennies. the dies used were obverse 3 with reverse C.
Other sub varieties of 1922 pennies exist, versions of the more common Fr192, one struck in a ferrous metal, possibly nickel, another version with a raised dot in the centre prong of the trident.

#24 Gary D

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 10:19 AM

I was at the London Coins auction when the 1922 ME went through. I'd mentally prepered myself to go to £2500. It opened at that and went for £3800 hammer. Another good identifier of the 192a is both 2s are to tooth. I think I will have to put up with my GF for now.
Gary


The pictured 1922 F192A is brilliant!
As far as I am aware (from the reverse picture) this is the second best known of this variety, the best is only marginally better.(need to see a picture of the obverse)

Value could be anything between £2000-£5000 depending who bids for it!
The dies used on this variety, Freeman Cat. obverse 3 with pattern reverse C* The other even rarer, so far unique, is definately real, the coin has the obverse Modified effigy obverse 4 with reverse die C, the exact die design used for the 1927 pennies.
A third die pair exists but was only used as far as is known to produce two proof pennies. the dies used were obverse 3 with reverse C.
Other sub varieties of 1922 pennies exist, versions of the more common Fr192, one struck in a ferrous metal, possibly nickel, another version with a raised dot in the centre prong of the trident.



#25 Red Riley

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 10:49 AM

Regarding the verdigris, the truth is I hadn't even noticed until I scanned the coin in preparation for posting. I know that sounds incredible, but sometimes coins remain out of sight for years. I will think about using olive oil as I'm familiar with this, but won't be using any other patent dips or cleaning agents other than a mild detergent and distilled water.

I frequently find that I don't notice the verdigris until the coin has been photographed, and that is simply because the act of correcting the colour (toned copper/bronze is a nightmare to photograph) makes even the slightest speck of verdigris stand out bright green. At that point I have to do something about it...

#26 Accumulator

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:25 AM

The pictured 1922 F192A is brilliant!
As far as I am aware (from the reverse picture) this is the second best known of this variety, the best is only marginally better.(need to see a picture of the obverse)

Value could be anything between £2000-£5000 depending who bids for it!
The dies used on this variety, Freeman Cat. obverse 3 with pattern reverse C* The other even rarer, so far unique, is definately real, the coin has the obverse Modified effigy obverse 4 with reverse die C, the exact die design used for the 1927 pennies.
A third die pair exists but was only used as far as is known to produce two proof pennies. the dies used were obverse 3 with reverse C.
Other sub varieties of 1922 pennies exist, versions of the more common Fr192, one struck in a ferrous metal, possibly nickel, another version with a raised dot in the centre prong of the trident.


Thank you. As I say, the value is academic as it's part of my collection, but relative rarity is of always great interest.

Below is a scan of the obverse. I've tried overlaying it on a standard reverse(3) just to check and it's a perfect match.

Attached Files



#27 azda

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:30 AM

I wonder if Peck has now bought into it lol

#28 Accumulator

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:41 AM

....Other sub varieties of 1922 pennies exist, versions of the more common Fr192, one struck in a ferrous metal, possibly nickel, another version with a raised dot in the centre prong of the trident.


Another interesting 1922 I have is a clear die flaw. Like most, I keep rather than actually collect die flaws. I'm always a little confused as to why Freeman regards some die flaws (e.g. F147) as varieties? I've always understood a variety to be the result of intentional human intervention, rather than mechanical failure.

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#29 Accumulator

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:46 AM

I frequently find that I don't notice the verdigris until the coin has been photographed, and that is simply because the act of correcting the colour (toned copper/bronze is a nightmare to photograph) makes even the slightest speck of verdigris stand out bright green. At that point I have to do something about it...


My last post is another example of this. I've never scanned a coin until this past few weeks and it's amazing how much more detail you see! Using a traditional loupe, the field of vision is so narrow that one tends not to take in the whole coin and see all the minor imperfections. My olive oil bath is going to be busy!

#30 Rob

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Posted 19 February 2011 - 11:56 AM

I'm always a little confused as to why Freeman regards some die flaws (e.g. F147) as varieties? I've always understood a variety to be the result of intentional human intervention, rather than mechanical failure.

Amen

Edited by Rob, 19 February 2011 - 11:56 AM.