1911 Pennies

[Peckris 579]

I have created a pdf of the article at http://www.mediafire.com/?vmxr5ntsc8g6pux

Thanks! Even at a stone-age download speed of 29 KB/sec (remember dial-up, folks?) it was there in no time. Good effort, will make fascinating reading.

[Peter 615]

Even though not a penny buff...this is what CM was about and how I miss it.

[davidrj 194]

Fascinating article! thank you

[Peckris 579]

Even though not a penny buff...this is what CM was about and how I miss it.

Hear hear.

[Accumulator 52]

It's unfortunately true of so many 'hobby' magazines today. The emphasis seems to be on presentation and not content. Very rarely do they contain articles which require more than a few hours original research. 672,000 coins searched is a substantial undertaking and the writer fully deserved the goodies he found amongst them!

[DaveG38 385]

It's unfortunately true of so many 'hobby' magazines today. The emphasis seems to be on presentation and not content. Very rarely do they contain articles which require more than a few hours original research. 672,000 coins searched is a substantial undertaking and the writer fully deserved the goodies he found amongst them!

This is why in my books on bronze and silver varieties, I gave tribute to a small group of people who carried out these reseaches in the early 1970s, describing them as 'heroic.' I can't imagine sifting through such huge numbers of coins in the way these guys did. An even greater feat was the counting of edge nicks on the milled silver in order to show that the Mint were using these as a kind of mint mark. The results were published in the Numismatic Journal in 1968 (I think) and described a wide range of what I would call micro-varieties of 20th century silver. They covered pretty much all dates through the century and all denominations and the results had to have been obtained using an eye glass on each coin!!!

Quite likely the sheer scale of the task and complexity of the measurements needed is the reason why there are few known varieties of the later decimal coinage. It's just too big a job to undertake. Or maybe modern methods mean there are few types to find. I've never seen any study of bronze coinage much beyond the early 1980s i.e. when those involved in the CM studies stopped reporting their findings, or died of sheer exhaustion.

Edited March 15, 2011 by DaveG38

[josie 8]

Its a good thing to have this forum.

Predecimal coin magazine is other thing??,maybe I will just edit some forum thread someday and print it as additional resources.

All the info. and photo found in this forum,like a assembly photograph maybe in microscope camera that others have just slide every coin for a photo just a comment.

[scott 129]

never knew some of those varietys existed.

any on the 1860-1900?

[Rob 3,002]

Quite likely the sheer scale of the task and complexity of the measurements needed is the reason why there are few known varieties of the later decimal coinage. It's just too big a job to undertake. Or maybe modern methods mean there are few types to find. I've never seen any study of bronze coinage much beyond the early 1980s i.e. when those involved in the CM studies stopped reporting their findings, or died of sheer exhaustion.

Or the supply of really large accumulations required to do such a study ran out. How many people would be likely to store 10 or 20000 pennies - a dozen maybe? Once they finished there was no ready supply of fresh accumulations to process, so the studies ceased.

[Peckris 579]

It's unfortunately true of so many 'hobby' magazines today. The emphasis seems to be on presentation and not content. Very rarely do they contain articles which require more than a few hours original research. 672,000 coins searched is a substantial undertaking and the writer fully deserved the goodies he found amongst them!

This is why in my books on bronze and silver varieties, I gave tribute to a small group of people who carried out these reseaches in the early 1970s, describing them as 'heroic.' I can't imagine sifting through such huge numbers of coins in the way these guys did. An even greater feat was the counting of edge nicks on the milled silver in order to show that the Mint were using these as a kind of mint mark. The results were published in the Numismatic Journal in 1968 (I think) and described a wide range of what I would call micro-varieties of 20th century silver. They covered pretty much all dates through the century and all denominations and the results had to have been obtained using an eye glass on each coin!!!

Quite likely the sheer scale of the task and complexity of the measurements needed is the reason why there are few known varieties of the later decimal coinage. It's just too big a job to undertake. Or maybe modern methods mean there are few types to find. I've never seen any study of bronze coinage much beyond the early 1980s i.e. when those involved in the CM studies stopped reporting their findings, or died of sheer exhaustion.

never knew some of those varietys existed.

any on the 1860-1900?

The Coins and Medals 1970 Annual has a very good 12-page section on varieties, entitled "British Coin Varieties 1816 - 1968 (Bronze 1895 - 1967)" by David Sealy. He also includes known additions to Peck from 1816 - 1895. Interestingly, he includes the Gouby X 1911 penny (rated Rare), but not - clearly unknown in 1970 - the 1915 Obverse 1 farthing, nor the 1921 pre-1920 shilling obverse. Sometime I must scan it and upload it here, though like that penny survey, there's quite a lot of it!

[Accumulator 52]

The Coins and Medals 1970 Annual has a very good 12-page section on varieties, entitled "British Coin Varieties 1816 - 1968 (Bronze 1895 - 1967)" by David Sealy. He also includes known additions to Peck from 1816 - 1895. Interestingly, he includes the Gouby X 1911 penny (rated Rare), but not - clearly unknown in 1970 - the 1915 Obverse 1 farthing, nor the 1921 pre-1920 shilling obverse. Sometime I must scan it and upload it here, though like that penny survey, there's quite a lot of it!

If you do find the time, it would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately all of my old magazines and several books have been thrown out over the years following the usual succession of house moves.

[Peckris 579]

The Coins and Medals 1970 Annual has a very good 12-page section on varieties, entitled "British Coin Varieties 1816 - 1968 (Bronze 1895 - 1967)" by David Sealy. He also includes known additions to Peck from 1816 - 1895. Interestingly, he includes the Gouby X 1911 penny (rated Rare), but not - clearly unknown in 1970 - the 1915 Obverse 1 farthing, nor the 1921 pre-1920 shilling obverse. Sometime I must scan it and upload it here, though like that penny survey, there's quite a lot of it!

If you do find the time, it would be greatly appreciated. Unfortunately all of my old magazines and several books have been thrown out over the years following the usual succession of house moves.

It's less finding the time, than it is logging out of the computer and logging in to an older version of the operating system on an external hard drive, which is the only way I can run Photoshop, which is the only way I can operate my scanner! But I will, I will :-)

[Accumulator 52]

It's less finding the time, than it is logging out of the computer and logging in to an older version of the operating system on an external hard drive, which is the only way I can run Photoshop, which is the only way I can operate my scanner! But I will, I will :-)

You sound like the sort of chap that, instead of going to PC World and buying a computer, goes to Radio Shack and buys a whole load of electronic bits which he strews around the room and proceeeds to 'breadboard' together with various odd lengths of wire and lots of crocodile clips. But I'm sure that's completely wrong!

[Peckris 579]

It's less finding the time, than it is logging out of the computer and logging in to an older version of the operating system on an external hard drive, which is the only way I can run Photoshop, which is the only way I can operate my scanner! But I will, I will :-)

You sound like the sort of chap that, instead of going to PC World and buying a computer, goes to Radio Shack and buys a whole load of electronic bits which he strews around the room and proceeeds to 'breadboard' together with various odd lengths of wire and lots of crocodile clips. But I'm sure that's completely wrong!

No, I'm the sort of chap that very belatedly upgraded to OS X Leopard and found that all my essential software continued to run quite happily, EXCEPT for Photoshop through which I had my scanner software linked. So I tried to buy Photoshop Elements and discovered that Adobe no longer sell Elements 6 which is the last version that runs on my ageing machine. Which all goes to show that Adobe have all the commercial instincts of a dead hedgehog.

[scott 129]

I of FID to gap?

[Accumulator 52]

I of FID to gap?

I can't tell from your photos, but you're looking for the I of BRITT aligned with a tooth.

[scott 129]

you cant tell at all, which is why i went for this one as it is a discovered feature.

it is possibly alligned but only find a tooth between the IT

Edited February 2, 2013 by scott

[Accumulator 52]

you cant tell at all, which is why i went for this one as it is a discovered feature.

it is possibly alligned but only find a tooth between the IT

Ok, but the 'normal' (i.e. not Gouby X) obverse has the I of FID to a gap:

[scott 129]

good that is that sorted, can see all i can see on that one

[InforaPenny 21]

First, I want to pay homage to V. R. Court and his heroic survey of 20th century pre-decimal bronze pennies. The total he actually surveyed was an astounding 2,160,000 pennies, something like 40 times the number in Freeman’s bun penny survey. The effort was aided by a special arrangement with banking staff, with particular care to ensure that that the bags of coins once examined and disposed of were not returned to the survey (many going directly to the mint for re-coinage). According to Mr. Court in a July 1972 letter I’ve seen, when pennies “finally became unavailable I was really rather relievedâ€. Unfortunately, I’ve never found a copy of his halfpenny survey, which is only hinted at in his penny article.

Also, here is a scan of the obverse of my 1911 hollow neck penny.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

[InforaPenny 21]

... and here is the reverse of this 1911 hollow neck penny.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

[Accumulator 52]

First, I want to pay homage to V. R. Court and his heroic survey of 20th century pre-decimal bronze pennies. The total he actually surveyed was an astounding 2,160,000 pennies, something like 40 times the number in Freeman’s bun penny survey. The effort was aided by a special arrangement with banking staff, with particular care to ensure that that the bags of coins once examined and disposed of were not returned to the survey (many going directly to the mint for re-coinage). According to Mr. Court in a July 1972 letter I’ve seen, when pennies “finally became unavailable I was really rather relievedâ€. Unfortunately, I’ve never found a copy of his halfpenny survey, which is only hinted at in his penny article.

Also, here is a scan of the obverse of my 1911 hollow neck penny.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

That's a lovely example of the Gouby X!

I totally agree with you regarding VR Court. As an aside, I've often wondered what he did with all the rare varieties he (or his helpers) picked out? He found 5 x 1903 open 3's, 6 x 1908 1* + C's, 2 x 1909 2 + E's, 37 x 1911 Gouby X's etc. Presumably he pulled them out and sold them off?

[Justin 0]

I know this is resurrecting an old thread, but thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic!

I was searching through a bulk load that I got ages ago just to make sure I hadn't missed anything (already found a low grade low tide penny but that was all), and I had only two 1911 pennies in the whole lot and almost didn't bother checking!

So for the experts is the one on the left a hollow neck as the I in BRITT points to a tooth?

[Accumulator 52]

I know this is resurrecting an old thread, but thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic!

I was searching through a bulk load that I got ages ago just to make sure I hadn't missed anything (already found a low grade low tide penny but that was all), and I had only two 1911 pennies in the whole lot and almost didn't bother checking!

So for the experts is the one on the left a hollow neck as the I in BRITT points to a tooth?

Hi, yes it is. If the reverse is definitely 1911 then that's a nice find!

[Justin 0]

I know this is resurrecting an old thread, but thought it best to post here rather than start a new topic!

I was searching through a bulk load that I got ages ago just to make sure I hadn't missed anything (already found a low grade low tide penny but that was all), and I had only two 1911 pennies in the whole lot and almost didn't bother checking!

So for the experts is the one on the left a hollow neck as the I in BRITT points to a tooth?

Hi, yes it is. If the reverse is definitely 1911 then that's a nice find!

Awesome!

I did have to check the reverse again though!

Cheers