1911 Pennies

[Peckris 579]

It's a minuscule difference, but you may be right...

I think the left image is pointing to a space (as near as dammit); the right image is a bit pixelated but I THINK it's to the left of a tooth? But you're right, it is a hard one to spot.

I'm going to post my other penny now.

[Peckris 579]

Now this one is interesting. I'm pretty sure the I of BRITT is to a space (I drew a helpful arrow!!). But, it 'feels' different to my other 1911s.

1. The legend looks a little bigger in relation to the flan and portrait

2. The bust looks slightly different, in that the face in profile looks a bit wider than the regular issue

3. The ear looks very different (different engraving lines inside, and flatter lobes; it kind of looks bigger)

But bear in mind that the photo was taken in sunlight where yesterday's was in artificial light. See what you think?

[Peckris 579]

And the reverse (note, this is one of those where the date is not much more than half struck up; what looks like rubbing on Britannia's robe is in fact streakiness which you can see elsewhere too).

[Peckris 579]

Finally, a scan of my own Gouby X :

[Gary 7]

Now this one is interesting. I'm pretty sure the I of BRITT is to a space (I drew a helpful arrow!!). But, it 'feels' different to my other 1911s.

1. The legend looks a little bigger in relation to the flan and portrait

2. The bust looks slightly different, in that the face in profile looks a bit wider than the regular issue

3. The ear looks very different (different engraving lines inside, and flatter lobes; it kind of looks bigger)

But bear in mind that the photo was taken in sunlight where yesterday's was in artificial light. See what you think?

Nice one Peckris. Glad to see you got your camera working. Nice Pics. Results to follow but the weekend has not been the lazy weekend I thought it would be, forgot a couple of birthdays so it will take a while longer

[Accumulator 52]

Now this one is interesting. I'm pretty sure the I of BRITT is to a space (I drew a helpful arrow!!). But, it 'feels' different to my other 1911s.

1. The legend looks a little bigger in relation to the flan and portrait

2. The bust looks slightly different, in that the face in profile looks a bit wider than the regular issue

3. The ear looks very different (different engraving lines inside, and flatter lobes; it kind of looks bigger)

But bear in mind that the photo was taken in sunlight where yesterday's was in artificial light. See what you think?

Interesting, but call me a cynic as I'm still not totally convinced of the difference. At least purely on the positioning of the 'I'. I'll have another look tonight at the other areas you mention. In the meantime, here is a photo and scan of a better grade 1911 which shows how difficult it is to be certain about positions even on the same coin. Slightly different camera angles and shadowing make so much difference. Good luck Gary!

[Cerbera100 0]

I read somewhere (may have been this thread... too lazy to check ) that scanning of coins was a faux pas... Is it really that bad?! Surely its the easiest way to get full focus on a coin (except those silly high-relief ancient stuff!)?

I've tried all manner of tricks with the camera, but cant get anything nearly as good... either the flash reflects, or lack of flash gives unrealistic colouring...

Also... (really showing my ineptitude now!) where does one host said images... ideally without relinquishing any pennies?!

1911 Gouby X penny pics to follow!

Scanning is NOT a faux-pas! With scans you get a perfectly evenly lit, perfectly flat, and perfectly square-on picture. The one main drawback with scans is the flatness of tone - lustre doesn't properly come out at all. I would have scanned my 1911s but since I upgraded operating systems I've lost Photoshop, which was the link to my scanner.

Thanks for that! I hadn't really considered the effect it would have on lustre... to be honest, the only coins I scan are those (non-proofs) going on ebay (thieving bastards!... sorry, I'll control my outburst!) and they are almost always VF at best, so lustre isn't really an issue!

[Peckris 579]

Now this one is interesting. I'm pretty sure the I of BRITT is to a space (I drew a helpful arrow!!). But, it 'feels' different to my other 1911s.

1. The legend looks a little bigger in relation to the flan and portrait

2. The bust looks slightly different, in that the face in profile looks a bit wider than the regular issue

3. The ear looks very different (different engraving lines inside, and flatter lobes; it kind of looks bigger)

But bear in mind that the photo was taken in sunlight where yesterday's was in artificial light. See what you think?

Nice one Peckris. Glad to see you got your camera working. Nice Pics. Results to follow but the weekend has not been the lazy weekend I thought it would be, forgot a couple of birthdays so it will take a while longer

Run! Run for your life!!

Interesting, but call me a cynic as I'm still not totally convinced of the difference. At least purely on the positioning of the 'I'. I'll have another look tonight at the other areas you mention. In the meantime, here is a photo and scan of a better grade 1911 which shows how difficult it is to be certain about positions even on the same coin. Slightly different camera angles and shadowing make so much difference. Good luck Gary!

Ok, you're a cynic. But you're quite right - it is a B to tell, the only certain one is Gouby X which is 100% to a tooth.

[davidrj 194]

Ok, you're a cynic. But you're quite right - it is a B to tell, the only certain one is Gouby X which is 100% to a tooth.

Okay

just spent a bit of time putting 6 1911 pennies on the scanner, simultaneous scan with as near identical illumination and orientation as possible

original scan at 3200 dpi >>> massive file, then a bit of cut & paste in Photoshop

The Gouby X stands out like a sore thumb, can't see any difference in the rest though some have a hint of hollow neck.

Suggest the term "hollow neck" be confined to the dustbin and that 1911 varieties are solely distinguishable by bead size and letter alignement

David

[Accumulator 52]

The Gouby X stands out like a sore thumb, can't see any difference in the rest though some have a hint of hollow neck.

Suggest the term "hollow neck" be confined to the dustbin and that 1911 varieties are solely distinguishable by bead size and letter alignement

David

I really must get a better scanner, mine seems hopeless unless I'm just using it incorrectly!

After yet another look at your images, Peckris, and those of David I must agree. Both Gouby X's stand out a mile but beyond that its hard to see anything else. I think I'll have to consign my 1911's back into their bag for another few years unless Gary comes up with something new.

[Peckris 579]

Ok, you're a cynic. But you're quite right - it is a B to tell, the only certain one is Gouby X which is 100% to a tooth.

Okay

just spent a bit of time putting 6 1911 pennies on the scanner, simultaneous scan with as near identical illumination and orientation as possible

original scan at 3200 dpi >>> massive file, then a bit of cut & paste in Photoshop

The Gouby X stands out like a sore thumb, can't see any difference in the rest though some have a hint of hollow neck.

Suggest the term "hollow neck" be confined to the dustbin and that 1911 varieties are solely distinguishable by bead size and letter alignement

David

The Gouby X stands out like a sore thumb, can't see any difference in the rest though some have a hint of hollow neck.

Suggest the term "hollow neck" be confined to the dustbin and that 1911 varieties are solely distinguishable by bead size and letter alignement

David

I really must get a better scanner, mine seems hopeless unless I'm just using it incorrectly!

After yet another look at your images, Peckris, and those of David I must agree. Both Gouby X's stand out a mile but beyond that its hard to see anything else. I think I'll have to consign my 1911's back into their bag for another few years unless Gary comes up with something new.

Ok, this is my five pennorth. Apart from the Gouby X (which is obvious), I'd venture that all the others BAR ONE are clearly to a space. The "one" is #5, or mid-bottom - that appears to be less obviously to a space, and the more I look at it the more it seems to be "left of a tooth". Whaddya think guys?

[Accumulator 52]

Ok, this is my five pennorth. Apart from the Gouby X (which is obvious), I'd venture that all the others BAR ONE are clearly to a space. The "one" is #5, or mid-bottom - that appears to be less obviously to a space, and the more I look at it the more it seems to be "left of a tooth". Whaddya think guys?

Quite literally the fifth penniworth too!

Looking carefully again, I think that the fifth picture has a slightly more worn or damaged 'I' that has made it appear broader than the others, so creating the appearance of a greater overlap with the tooth. In fact, I now see all of the 'I''s (Gouby X excepted) as being to the left of the tooth rather than centrally within the gap, and in that sense all the same thing.

Edited January 30, 2011 by Accumulator

[Gary 7]

I have spent quite a few hours now comparing all the pic's that I have received plus those that I have found myself on the Net. My conclusion, based on the picture's that I have seen, is that the only major (if it can be called that!) difference is the number of border teeth. This conclusion comes after superimposing the different coins onto one another using three coins as a reference. These three reference coins are the one's in my collection, two normal pennies in Unc condition and a Gouby X in F condition.

I can find no other differences on the Obv, however one member did send a pic that seems to be I slightly left of a tooth and I will come to that one later.

First of all I counted the border teeth on both types of coins which produced the following result,

I to tooth (Gouby X) has 180 border teeth.

I to gap has 181 border teeth.

That is the first difference and not too easy to tell with the naked eye!

Secondly I studied the border teeth themselves a little more closely and the conclusion is that the border teeth on the I to tooth (Gouby X), the border tooth are slightly longer and the separation is greater, as you would expect being one tooth is missing.

Both coins in the above pic are almost identically worn. If you compare the two then you will see that most of the teeth on the I to tooth (Gouby X) are still well defined and elongated and the spacing between them can clearly be seen. The teeth on the I to gap on the other hand are little more than tiny crescents that merge at their base with the rim giving the appearance of a wide rim.

[Gary 7]

In the close up below there is a well struck up normal 1911 and a lower grade Gouby X which I think clearly shows the difference in border teeth.

There could be one other difference but I am unable to confirm this as all the pic's of Gouby X show quite worn examples and on all but one it is impossible to tell. This coin appears to be missing the last fullstop after B.M. and only has B.M

[Gary 7]

Peckris sent me this pic of his 1911 which he says the I points neither directly to a tooth or to gap.

Drawing a line, trying to keep parallel to the sides of the I, shows that the I does point to a gap (plus it also has 181 teeth) however this was the only obv that appears to have the lower serif of the I touching, or indeed any where near the R of BRITT. My conclusion is that because of the larger serif, the I appears to be sloping and gives the impression that is neither to gap or tooth.

The hollow Neck tag should be laid to rest as there are normal 1911 pennies that display this characteristic, at least in pictures anyway. Davidrj bought this penny thinking it was a "hollow neck" and I can see why, only to be confirmed wrong on receiving it.

Once again I would like to thank all of you that sent me pictures and thanks to Davidrj who responded to more than one request from me for more pictures.

I still have the Rev pics to compare but I don't expect to find any major differences between the two type's and in my opinion there are only TWO types, normal and Gouby x. Unless I am proved wrong of course!

[Gary 7]

here are some price's that have been supplied by members.

London Coins A130 - 4th & 5th September 2010

1675 Penny 1911 Hollow Neck I of BRITT points to a rim tooth Near Fine with some worn areas on the reverse, Very Rare

realised £40

Colin Cooke James Workman II

90 1911 BMC --. F --. Gouby X. Hollow Neck. Fine, extremely rare

SOLD FOR: £100

Colin Cooke Crocker collection

148 1911 BMC 2242. F --. Gouby Obverse X and Reverse A. Unlisted anywhere except by Gouby. I of BRITT points directly to a tooth border. Rare to find in any grade. Fine, only

Sold For: £160

Michael (Gouby) Coins, price list

BP 1911 B X + a - Rare F £85.00 - unsold

Other's that I know of,

1911 Gouby x F £40

1911 Gouby x F £40

1911 Gouby x F $41

I found and bought one on ebay within 10 days of starting to look so they are out there!

Edited January 31, 2011 by Gary

[Gary 7]

Almost forgot. there is one other coin that caught my eye and that was this one from Peckris.

This ,I thought was a particularly well struck up 1911 penny. I have two Unc 1911's, both with almost full lustre and neither of them have as much detail as this one. This is probably the reason it feels and looks different Peckris. However note the border teeth, they are joined to the rim and close together, merging into another as they meet the rim. On the Gouby x the teeth are seperated from the rim by not being struck in such high relief as the rim plus where they meet the rim they are still seperated from one another.

[Accumulator 52]

Great job Gary! You have more patience than me, counting all those teeth. I'm sure you've hit the nail on the head with the 180 v 181 teeth being the proper description of the the difference between the only two varieties. It reminds me of the time I spent as a youth counting dots around the corners of Viccy stamps, but then is was only 14 v 16 and that was hard enough.

Edited January 31, 2011 by Accumulator

[Gary D 76]

Of course the other attribute possibly worth a mention is the I of IMP also points to a tooth on the Gouby X

[davidrj 194]

Great job Gary! You have more patience than me, counting all those teeth. I'm sure you've hit the nail on the head with the 180 v 181 teeth being the proper description of the the difference between the only two varieties.

Seconded! and glad to have been of help. Can we get all this info to Spink? May get it listed in future editions

David

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

WELL DONE!!!!!

[Peckris 579]

Almost forgot. there is one other coin that caught my eye and that was this one from Peckris.

This ,I thought was a particularly well struck up 1911 penny. I have two Unc 1911's, both with almost full lustre and neither of them have as much detail as this one. This is probably the reason it feels and looks different Peckris. However note the border teeth, they are joined to the rim and close together, merging into another as they meet the rim. On the Gouby x the teeth are seperated from the rim by not being struck in such high relief as the rim plus where they meet the rim they are still seperated from one another.

Thanks for that Gary (all your research, plus the compliment, plus getting me to learn how to photograph coins). Yes, I bought this 1911 way back in the late 70s from Peter Ireland for £4.50 - I was drawn to it! It was probably a bit over the odds for it at the time, but the detail on it as you say, is superb (obverse - the reverse is average for the issue). When I found one with much more lustre - the other one I posted - I didn't have the heart to dispose of the earlier one. Glad I didn't.

[DaveG38 385]

Almost forgot. there is one other coin that caught my eye and that was this one from Peckris.

This ,I thought was a particularly well struck up 1911 penny. I have two Unc 1911's, both with almost full lustre and neither of them have as much detail as this one. This is probably the reason it feels and looks different Peckris. However note the border teeth, they are joined to the rim and close together, merging into another as they meet the rim. On the Gouby x the teeth are seperated from the rim by not being struck in such high relief as the rim plus where they meet the rim they are still seperated from one another.

A possible explanation of the differences in shape, spacing and general appearence of the border teeth and rim on the obverse is that there were specimens of the early George V coins where the obverse rim is abnormally raised. This applies to 1911, 1912 and 1913.

[Gary 7]

[davidrj 194]

A possible explanation of the differences in shape, spacing and general appearence of the border teeth and rim on the obverse is that there were specimens of the early George V coins where the obverse rim is abnormally raised. This applies to 1911, 1912 and 1913.

I've had similar thoughts, none of of Gouby X I've seen seem to have the very raised rim, but then none were better than Fine

Given the unconfirmed reports of "hollow neck" 1912s maybe we should all look at tooth alignment of our 1912 and 1913 in our junk boxes duplicates

David

Edited February 1, 2011 by davidrj