Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

josie

Predecimal Denomination.

Recommended Posts

Interesting article Josie, Thanks for posting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. Though I have to say, it must be sad not being able to find many coins worth more than face value over there for your collection. Over here, if you sort through enough coin you will find a silver coin here and there, a buffalo nickel for about every $200 in nickels and I've even known of people getting (real) silver dollars at the bank. However, I have to wonder if over there you are all bombarded with "Cash 4 Gold" advertisements on TV like over here. It seems like every place wants to buy gold and silver (at a steep discount from melt value).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting. Though I have to say, it must be sad not being able to find many coins worth more than face value over there for your collection. Over here, if you sort through enough coin you will find a silver coin here and there, a buffalo nickel for about every $200 in nickels and I've even known of people getting (real) silver dollars at the bank. However, I have to wonder if over there you are all bombarded with "Cash 4 Gold" advertisements on TV like over here. It seems like every place wants to buy gold and silver (at a steep discount from melt value).

There are a lot of punters getting burnt by gold sharks.

The average Joe doesn't possess accurate scales or understand purity of gold or even how to ID it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are a lot of things to consider.

A "Proof", now legal tender, but formerly perhaps not, cannot really be considered as a coin in the accepted sense of the word as it is not intended to be spent. The format of a Proof may be similar to circulation issues, but being made from special dies there are often subtle differences between the Proof and Circulation issues. The RM's "BU" is perhaps an intermediate step. I therefore suggest that any Proof or BU is not really an example of coins of that year or era (or whatever), but is still only an example of the art of coining, which in itself is commendable but can be misleading.

Regarding "year sets", as they are issued at the beginning of the year they are often incomplete, with even commemorative issues which entered circulation missing.

My choice would be end-of-year sets including (a) only all circulation coins of that year, and (B) end-of-year sets including all collector-only types as well. These should be from "circulation" dies, but the first ones produced and "uncirculated", having been handled and packed only under controlled conditions as applied to proofs at present.

Bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My choice would be end-of-year sets including 1] only all circulation coins of that year, and 2] end-of-year sets including all collector-only types as well.

Sorry about unintended smiley!

Bill.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A "Proof", now legal tender, but formerly perhaps not, cannot really be considered as a coin in the accepted sense of the word as it is not intended to be spent. The format of a Proof may be similar to circulation issues, but being made from special dies there are often subtle differences between the Proof and Circulation issues. The RM's "BU" is perhaps an intermediate step. I therefore suggest that any Proof or BU is not really an example of coins of that year or era (or whatever), but is still only an example of the art of coining, which in itself is commendable but can be misleading.

Not sure I'd go along with this? Proofs are certainly not intended to be spent, but in fact there may be fewer differences between a proof of a common type, and currency varieties (e.g. if a proof 1902 penny existed and it was of the common second type, it would have more in common with its currency sibling, than of the LT variety). In any case, a proof is not a pattern - it's simply the pinnacle or "proof" of the regular issue. The grey area would be proof-only decimal issues, such as 1972 - are they strictly patterns, or proofs? Given that the RM have issued complete proof sets every year since 1971 - and purely for commercial reasons - I suppose they belong to a new category. They aren't patterns really, and nor do they exist for the same reason as proofs issued before 1971; they are simply commemoratives up for sale. But then again, you could also argue that the 1951 proof set is similar.

As for the specimen BU sets, they really are currency coins, and can be spent as such (and probably have been, many times). The fact that they are flawless examples without production damage, doesn't really enter into it. After all, uncirculated examples from a bank may be flawless on occasion too. It's only their packaging that sets them apart, but once breached, the coins aren't any different from ordinary BU examples.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Typical Daily Telegraph article of the 'things are never as good as they used to be' ilk. I would however tend to agree about the quality of design, but why he picks the humdrum 1902-27 halfcrown is beyond me. And as for retaining the old l.s.d. system? Do me a favour.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Typical Daily Telegraph article of the 'things are never as good as they used to be' ilk. I would however tend to agree about the quality of design, but why he picks the humdrum 1902-27 halfcrown is beyond me. And as for retaining the old l.s.d. system? Do me a favour.

Bit Colonel Blimpish, that article. I do love the Ed VII halfcrown reverse, especially seen in mint state. But ahead of the standing Britannia florin reverse? No way! As for working out how many twopenny-halfpenny bars can be bought for £5 4s 10d - pffft. I for one am glad we went to the decimal system.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Typical Daily Telegraph article of the 'things are never as good as they used to be' ilk. I would however tend to agree about the quality of design, but why he picks the humdrum 1902-27 halfcrown is beyond me. And as for retaining the old l.s.d. system? Do me a favour.

Bit Colonel Blimpish, that article. I do love the Ed VII halfcrown reverse, especially seen in mint state. But ahead of the standing Britannia florin reverse? No way! As for working out how many twopenny-halfpenny bars can be bought for £5 4s 10d - pffft. I for one am glad we went to the decimal system.

I have to say, that I found the article absolutely brilliant. Really enjoyed reading it, and appreciated the idiosyncratic style it was written in. This bit particularly fascinated me:-

In the mid-1960s, it was still common to find Victorian pennies and ha’pennies in one’s change. Most were worn almost smooth, but some were not, suggesting that they had, at some point in their century-long existence, been hoarded for years or even decades before being put back into circulation. Silver coins of that age had disappeared for the simple reason that they were entirely silver: as were all threepences, sixpences, shillings, florins and half-crowns minted before 1920.

It must have been the thrill of a lifetime to receive a high grade bun in your change. As he said, most were flat discs, or well worn by the 1960's, but I suppose, just very occasionally, you'd get that odd really good example turning up, that you would probably have kept for life.

I often wondered what it is about buns that makes them such a popular collecting target, and then it struck me that it might be the sheer length of time they were in circulation ~ and in considerable popular circulation at that. Well used coins, unlike the 1 & 2 p's of today. In circulation for over 100 years in some cases ~ so you could have received a "flat disc" 1861 and a 1961 penny in your change during the 60's. That might have lent them a certain unique charisma which remains to this day.

As for exam questions in lsd, I did actually look up an old O level maths paper and had a go at it (maths was my favourite subject at school). From 1958 I think, it featured money type calculations, all in lsd obviously. I found myself converting all the sums to pennies, for ease of calculation, then re-converting them back to the higher denominations. Somewhat surprisingly, I don't recall any of the questions referring to half pennies or farthings. I managed the questions, and got them right, but in reality, I would have struggled for time to complete the paper in the allotted 2 hours. Either half of the paper, as they were split in two over separate days back then. No calculators either then, so I refrained from using one, and did everything long hand, For the lsd questions, calculators would only have been of limited use anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It must have been the thrill of a lifetime to receive a high grade bun in your change. As he said, most were flat discs, or well worn by the 1960's, but I suppose, just very occasionally, you'd get that odd really good example turning up, that you would probably have kept for life.

I often wondered what it is about buns that makes them such a popular collecting target, and then it struck me that it might be the sheer length of time they were in circulation ~ and in considerable popular circulation at that. Well used coins, unlike the 1 & 2 p's of today. In circulation for over 100 years in some cases ~ so you could have received a "flat disc" 1861 and a 1961 penny in your change during the 60's. That might have lent them a certain unique charisma which remains to this day.

I remember getting this penny in around 1961

1863AJg.jpg

Got off the conducter on the 23 bus - It was to my eyes then, uncirculated, as opposed to the flat discs that were normal bun pennies. been collecting pennies ever since

:)

As for exam questions in lsd, I did actually look up an old O level maths paper and had a go at it (maths was my favourite subject at school). From 1958 I think, it featured money type calculations, all in lsd obviously. I found myself converting all the sums to pennies, for ease of calculation, then re-converting them back to the higher denominations. Somewhat surprisingly, I don't recall any of the questions referring to half pennies or farthings. I managed the questions, and got them right, but in reality, I would have struggled for time to complete the paper in the allotted 2 hours. Either half of the paper, as they were split in two over separate days back then. No calculators either then, so I refrained from using one, and did everything long hand, For the lsd questions, calculators would only have been of limited use anyway.

I remember sums in £sd and oz, Lb, Cwt and tons. We took them in our stride, we had no concept then that we were working in base12, base14, base16, base20 etc. My teacher in my last year of primary school (1955) was dead keen on decimal currency, so he would daily fire questions at us, such as "what is 75% of a pound?" - came in handy in 1971

:)

David

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I often wondered what it is about buns that makes them such a popular collecting target, and then it struck me that it might be the sheer length of time they were in circulation ~ and in considerable popular circulation at that. Well used coins, unlike the 1 & 2 p's of today. In circulation for over 100 years in some cases ~ so you could have received a "flat disc" 1861 and a 1961 penny in your change during the 60's. That might have lent them a certain unique charisma which remains to this day.

Also the fact that in terms of bronze issue, they were the longest running design by far, lasting for near 35 years. When you consider the nearest competition was the piffling 15 years of Geo V (1911-1926) and 11 years of Geo VI (1937-48), which are the longest running predecimal designs since (technically, the Eliz II design ran from 1954-1970, but effectively it's only a six year span), that's a hell of a long run.

Plus of course, the mystery of getting that flat disc with perhaps a mere silhouette of Victoria on the obverse, and if you were lucky a CD on the reverse. Yet with all the rare varieties you scoured that date just in case! Pennies from 1895 seemed to occur more frequently in VG or even F, the same with Ed VII.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember getting this penny in around 1961

1863AJg.jpg

Got off the conducter on the 23 bus - It was to my eyes then, uncirculated, as opposed to the flat discs that were normal bun pennies. been collecting pennies ever since

:)

It's about NEF and has obviously spent a few decades resting in less than ideal conditions, but it would have been manna from heaven for me, just as it was to you at the time, David B)

I remember sums in £sd and oz, Lb, Cwt and tons. We took them in our stride, we had no concept then that we were working in base12, base14, base16, base20 etc. My teacher in my last year of primary school (1955) was dead keen on decimal currency, so he would daily fire questions at us, such as "what is 75% of a pound?" - came in handy in 1971

:)

David

Yes, although money apart, we live in a rather strange hybrid imperial/metric mix world today in this country. I was taught fully in metric, but for many things, I think imperial, having been brought up with it at home, and so do most others. Who, for example, thinks of their own or others height and weight, in metres and kilograms ? Very few.

Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I often wondered what it is about buns that makes them such a popular collecting target, and then it struck me that it might be the sheer length of time they were in circulation ~ and in considerable popular circulation at that. Well used coins, unlike the 1 & 2 p's of today. In circulation for over 100 years in some cases ~ so you could have received a "flat disc" 1861 and a 1961 penny in your change during the 60's. That might have lent them a certain unique charisma which remains to this day.

Also the fact that in terms of bronze issue, they were the longest running design by far, lasting for near 35 years. When you consider the nearest competition was the piffling 15 years of Geo V (1911-1926) and 11 years of Geo VI (1937-48), which are the longest running predecimal designs since (technically, the Eliz II design ran from 1954-1970, but effectively it's only a six year span), that's a hell of a long run.

Plus of course, the mystery of getting that flat disc with perhaps a mere silhouette of Victoria on the obverse, and if you were lucky a CD on the reverse. Yet with all the rare varieties you scoured that date just in case! Pennies from 1895 seemed to occur more frequently in VG or even F, the same with Ed VII.

Yes, of course, they ran for 34 years (35 separate years counting every year from 1860 to 1894 inclusive) with no breaks, widely varying mintages, and many different types/varieties. No wonder they are so collectable !!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

A few years ago I went to buy some vinyl flooring for the bathroom; the rolls were 2 metre wide, but the carpet shop sold lengths by the yard!

Crazy system, our kids are taught metric at school, but the real world exists in imperial

The French ditched £sd (Livres, sols, et deniers) in 1800 and introduced the standard metre and kilogram

The whole world (except ouselves and the Americans) uses metric in everyday life, and all science and engineering is now in SI units (no more Horse Power or Foot Poundals)

So why do we insist on buying boiled ham in ounces?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

A few years ago I went to buy some vinyl flooring for the bathroom; the rolls were 2 metre wide, but the carpet shop sold lengths by the yard!

Crazy system, our kids are taught metric at school, but the real world exists in imperial

The French ditched £sd (Livres, sols, et deniers) in 1800 and introduced the standard metre and kilogram

The whole world (except ouselves and the Americans) uses metric in everyday life, and all science and engineering is now in SI units (no more Horse Power or Foot Poundals)

So why do we insist on buying boiled ham in ounces?

It is a crazy system, David, as we are neither one thing nor the other. At least the continentals and the Americans are unashamedly either metric or imperial.

But I'll still stick to buying a quarter of ham at the deli :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

A few years ago I went to buy some vinyl flooring for the bathroom; the rolls were 2 metre wide, but the carpet shop sold lengths by the yard!

Crazy system, our kids are taught metric at school, but the real world exists in imperial

The French ditched £sd (Livres, sols, et deniers) in 1800 and introduced the standard metre and kilogram

The whole world (except ouselves and the Americans) uses metric in everyday life, and all science and engineering is now in SI units (no more Horse Power or Foot Poundals)

So why do we insist on buying boiled ham in ounces?

It is a crazy system, David, as we are neither one thing nor the other. At least the continentals and the Americans are unashamedly either metric or imperial.

But I'll still stick to buying a quarter of ham at the deli :P

If you are numerate, it doesn't matter which system(s) you use. The wonderfully convenient calculator was the downfall of mental arithmetic. If I play darts I use chalk to mark, but frequently seem to be in a minority of one or two. The majority can't do basic sums, but can prod a keypad - sounds familiar? If people use a machine to calculate even basic sums, then metric is the only way. Standardising is extremely useful as it helps to prevent cock-ups such as the Mars lander where a combination of imperial and metric units caused it to hit the surface at three times the intended speed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Absurdly, traders are co-erced into quoting dual weights for food (it was very nearly metric only until the EU relented late on), whereas we still have road signs in yards. We also use miles not kilometres, and the size of TV screens are still quoted in inches.

A few years ago I went to buy some vinyl flooring for the bathroom; the rolls were 2 metre wide, but the carpet shop sold lengths by the yard!

Crazy system, our kids are taught metric at school, but the real world exists in imperial

The French ditched £sd (Livres, sols, et deniers) in 1800 and introduced the standard metre and kilogram

The whole world (except ouselves and the Americans) uses metric in everyday life, and all science and engineering is now in SI units (no more Horse Power or Foot Poundals)

So why do we insist on buying boiled ham in ounces?

It is a crazy system, David, as we are neither one thing nor the other. At least the continentals and the Americans are unashamedly either metric or imperial.

But I'll still stick to buying a quarter of ham at the deli :P

If you are numerate, it doesn't matter which system(s) you use. The wonderfully convenient calculator was the downfall of mental arithmetic. If I play darts I use chalk to mark, but frequently seem to be in a minority of one or two. The majority can't do basic sums, but can prod a keypad - sounds familiar? If people use a machine to calculate even basic sums, then metric is the only way. Standardising is extremely useful as it helps to prevent cock-ups such as the Mars lander where a combination of imperial and metric units caused it to hit the surface at three times the intended speed.

What I find truly disquieting, Rob, is that the current crop of say, under 23's, even have difficulty performing simple sums with a calculator. Percentages, ratios, division are often beyond them, and one even wondered why there was a tick on one of calculator keys ~ I kid you not. I hadn't the heart to try and explain how square roots work.

They may be brilliant at social networking, but are predominantly woeful when it comes to figure work. Although because I've always liked maths, maybe I'm being a tad judgemental. I don't know.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I,ve attempted to teach my kids the tables..its basic fundemental maths.

How do people understand quantities,money,measurement,interest,mortgages etc etc without this skill? or just maybe they don't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I,ve attempted to teach my kids the tables..its basic fundemental maths.

How do people understand quantities,money,measurement,interest,mortgages etc etc without this skill? or just maybe they don't.

If they understood interest rates, maybe they're wouldn't be so many in debt

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If you are numerate, it doesn't matter which system(s) you use. The wonderfully convenient calculator was the downfall of mental arithmetic. If I play darts I use chalk to mark, but frequently seem to be in a minority of one or two. The majority can't do basic sums, but can prod a keypad - sounds familiar? If people use a machine to calculate even basic sums, then metric is the only way. Standardising is extremely useful as it helps to prevent cock-ups such as the Mars lander where a combination of imperial and metric units caused it to hit the surface at three times the intended speed.

Unless of course, you mean the Milky Way lander.. or was it Snickers? B) STANDARDISING?? Don't get me started!! :o

Edited by Peckris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just posting.

Complicated system,I dont even know what is the value of penny-pence vice versa,USA cent or Euro cent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

didn't the french go a bit crazy in 1790's (it was before 1800 they decimalised) and go to extreme lengths as decimalise the calender.

sod the americans, they cant even spell metre correctly let alone use them. speaking of americans, they may use 100 to 1 doller, but they have had such crazy demoinations as 3 cents and 1/2 cents at some points.

and if you delve deaper into the predecimal era, everything still fit within one anotheryou could make any price

Edited by scott

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

didn't the french go a bit crazy in 1790's (it was before 1800 they decimalised) and go to extreme lengths as decimalise the calender.

sod the americans, they cant even spell metre correctly let alone use them. speaking of americans, they may use 100 to 1 doller, but they have had such crazy demoinations as 3 cents and 1/2 cents at some points.

and if you delve deaper into the predecimal era, everything still fit within one anotheryou could make any price

Scott -- of course we can spell meter correctly. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

didn't the french go a bit crazy in 1790's (it was before 1800 they decimalised) and go to extreme lengths as decimalise the calender.

sod the americans, they cant even spell metre correctly let alone use them. speaking of americans, they may use 100 to 1 doller, but they have had such crazy demoinations as 3 cents and 1/2 cents at some points.

and if you delve deaper into the predecimal era, everything still fit within one anotheryou could make any price

Scott, you remind me of the son of a person I met from London about 20-25 years ago. When we first met, his immediate reply was "Cor, you dun ahf talk funny mite" - an unlikely arrangement of letters and words. ..Yes, well..... Unlike my friend's son, is there any danger of using your mother tongue in a written form that I can recognise? It's worse than Azda's teutonic iPhone. Thanks in advance.

Edited by Rob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

didn't the french go a bit crazy in 1790's (it was before 1800 they decimalised) and go to extreme lengths as decimalise the calender.

They also re-based the date so that 1792 became year 1. I've got a nice little centime from year 7.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×