NNC certification

[freewheels 2]

Hi forum members,

Firstly I want to mention that I have not posted on this forum in quite a while but I read it regularly.

These NNC slabbed coins have given me the bug however...

Has anyone else noticed a rash of medieval NNC certified coins for sale on ebay at the moment.

This one seller has been selling NNC coins of the 2oth century for years and only recently started on these older issues.

I've only ever seen NNC coins sold by this one seller and in my humble opinion the grading quality seems casual and inconsistent.

Any other opinions out there?,

Freewheels.

NNC 2.asp.htm

[Gary D 76]

Hi forum members,

Firstly I want to mention that I have not posted on this forum in quite a while but I read it regularly.

These NNC slabbed coins have given me the bug however...

Has anyone else noticed a rash of medieval NNC certified coins for sale on ebay at the moment.

This one seller has been selling NNC coins of the 2oth century for years and only recently started on these older issues.

I've only ever seen NNC coins sold by this one seller and in my humble opinion the grading quality seems casual and inconsistent.

Any other opinions out there?,

Freewheels.

As far as I'm aware Centsles is a dealer in the States that slabs his own. The grading tends to be overly optimistic but I'm not aware of any of his coin being of questionable origins.

Gary D

[declanwmagee 122]

Hi forum members,

Firstly I want to mention that I have not posted on this forum in quite a while but I read it regularly.

These NNC slabbed coins have given me the bug however...

Has anyone else noticed a rash of medieval NNC certified coins for sale on ebay at the moment.

This one seller has been selling NNC coins of the 2oth century for years and only recently started on these older issues.

I've only ever seen NNC coins sold by this one seller and in my humble opinion the grading quality seems casual and inconsistent.

Any other opinions out there?,

Freewheels.

As far as I'm aware Centsles is a dealer in the States that slabs his own. The grading tends to be overly optimistic but I'm not aware of any of his coin being of questionable origins.

Gary D

he slabs his own???

what a brilliant idea. Lets all do that

this time next year we'll be miwwionaires

[TomGoodheart 373]

Yes, I've seen those too. I checked out the NNC details for one coin and it was only what it said on the label.

Personally I buy a coin not a slab and his 'no returns if you break the slab' kinda puts me off. However the coins I've looked at (the Charles I ones) all seem acceptable and have sold for the sorts of prices you might expect (ie no bargains!)

I did bid on one (and didn't win) and probably would bid again if I saw something I liked. The grading is like the slab to me, I makes up me mind whether I think the coin is ok and would fit my collection. I don't care if someone self-slabs and grades a Fine coin EF, I just rate coins as attractive or not and an improvement on what I've got, or not.

His coins rarely seem to have much in the way of toning, which is a minus point in my eye, but I've not noticed anything awry with the coins themselves.

[RLC35 288]

Gary is right about Centsles. He always slabs his own coins, and overgrades also. Did any of you see the group of English pennys, and silver he has on eBay now? They are all over graded. If you ask him a question he seldom answers you. I stay away from him.

[VickySilver 775]

Caveat emptor, and I agree with what has been said but will add that I have bought from him going on the coin itself and not the plastic. His plastic, but not grading, is on par with NGC (do not get them confused!).

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

he slabs his own???

what a brilliant idea. Lets all do that

this time next year we'll be miwwionaires

Actually, all joking aside, we could do with a second UK slabber to compete with CGS....

[azda 973]

he slabs his own???

what a brilliant idea. Lets all do that

this time next year we'll be miwwionaires

Actually, all joking aside, we could do with a second UK slabber to compete with CGS....

I totally agree with you 400, i think their standards are above everyone elses benchmarks, and probably impossible to get a top grade from them, but as i have been saying all along, or asking, how long has CGS been grading and where did their benchmarks come from, the British Museum or what?

I'll also agree with Declan, how can a guy grade and slab his stuff himself, don't you have to be certified for this?

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

I totally agree with you 400, i think their standards are above everyone elses benchmarks, and probably impossible to get a top grade from them, but as i have been saying all along, or asking, how long has CGS been grading and where did their benchmarks come from, the British Museum or what?

I'll also agree with Declan, how can a guy grade and slab his stuff himself, don't you have to be certified for this?

The bloke behind London coins has been around for about 30 years or so, I guess the benchmarks might be his own personal collection, I don't know, by reports though they are supposed to be quite impressive. CGS itself has graded about 13,000 coins now I think in approx 5 years is it ?

No, you don't have to be certified to be a grader/slabber, you're just offering an opinion and perhaps, some form of guarantee which is a more difficult area.

[azda 973]

I totally agree with you 400, i think their standards are above everyone elses benchmarks, and probably impossible to get a top grade from them, but as i have been saying all along, or asking, how long has CGS been grading and where did their benchmarks come from, the British Museum or what?

I'll also agree with Declan, how can a guy grade and slab his stuff himself, don't you have to be certified for this?

The bloke behind London coins has been around for about 30 years or so, I guess the benchmarks might be his own personal collection, I don't know, by reports though they are supposed to be quite impressive. CGS itself has graded about 13,000 coins now I think in approx 5 years is it ?

No, you don't have to be certified to be a grader/slabber, you're just offering an opinion and perhaps, some form of guarantee which is a more difficult area.

Then i think a 30 year collection would have been a little easier/cheaper to obtain than they are nowadays, the demand for high grade specimens have pushed prices so high that an average collector couldn't afford right now with the economic climate, hence people tend to find bargains or fill their cabinet with whatever comes along just to race to get that date run finished.

A friend of mine does that, he buys worn discs 90% of the time, then tells me he's completed whatever, my thoughts were, well whats the point if its just a disc, i buy a coin to admire it, not to complete a series or date run.

[azda 973]

Hi forum members,

Firstly I want to mention that I have not posted on this forum in quite a while but I read it regularly.

These NNC slabbed coins have given me the bug however...

Has anyone else noticed a rash of medieval NNC certified coins for sale on ebay at the moment.

This one seller has been selling NNC coins of the 2oth century for years and only recently started on these older issues.

I've only ever seen NNC coins sold by this one seller and in my humble opinion the grading quality seems casual and inconsistent.

Any other opinions out there?,

Freewheels.

Can i just make a comment to freewheels initial post. I thought ebay only allowed certain APPROVED grading companies to be listed, if this guy is listing his own, and if he's not certified, why is he getting away with selling his stuff, i'll tell you why, because of his huge feedback and the fact he brings in $$$$$$ to Ebay, its a simple fact.

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

the demand for high grade specimens have pushed prices so high that an average collector couldn't afford right now with the economic climate,

From my perspective it's more that they are nigh on impossible to find.

Can i just make a comment to freewheels initial post. I thought ebay only allowed certain APPROVED grading companies to be listed, if this guy is listing his own, and if he's not certified, why is he getting away with selling his stuff, i'll tell you why, because of his huge feedback and the fact he brings in $$$$$$ to Ebay, its a simple fact.

All true, but neither he nor ebay in this instance are doing anything wrong. It's not like the forgery business at all IMO.

[RLC35 288]

Centsles gets by, on eBay, with showing his coins as certified (picturing them), while not stating they are certified, which is not allowed. EBay only allows about three reputable slabbing companies to be listed as certified, and NNC is not one of them!

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

Centsles gets by, on eBay, with showing his coins as certified (picturing them), while not stating they are certified, which is not allowed. EBay only allows about three reputable slabbing companies to be listed as certified, and NNC is not one of them!

I stand corrected then.

[coin watch 1]

I am not a great believer in slabs of any kind and also not an expert by any means on what is a good slabbing company or a bad one, but I just want to add my recent experience with the NNC slabs. I too have seen a lot of these NNC`s sold by this one ebay seller and as a collector of Charles I Tower hammered it`s not very often you come across a slabbed Chas coins but recently there have been many sold on ebay (US) and as previously said by this one seller.

Now I have to admit (with embarrassment) I recently purchased one. I have never purchased a slabbed coin before and thought it would be a novelty to put a low bid on this one particular item, I don`t know why? just boredom I suppose, but to my surprise (and later horrer) I was the winning bidder of the damn thing.

It was cheep enough but be warned if you are tempted to buy one go by the photo and judge the condition yourself and please do not spend a lot by the given condition rate. Before I received the coin I did a bit of info serching on this slabbing `company` and what I found out was quite alarming. Apparently there are 4 main well established slabbing companies and a couple more of good stand out of about 20 odd in the US alone, but the most interesting thing was the reliabilty of the `others` with the mentioned NNC coming out as one of the worst if not THE worst.

So I did not expect much with the arrival of this coin, and just as well because not only was the coin poorly judged but the slab was crap too! It was almost loose with just a blob or two of glue holding the whole thing together, I ran my finger nail around the gap and without any effort the slab came apart, also the the paper info card is just a bit of paper with what looks like a bar code but is in fact just some black ink doing nothing plus some numbers that probably mean nothing.

Having said all that the coin was low grade but genuine and ok for what I paid and overall quite a comical lerning curve for me. But be careful if tempted as I think this guy is trying his luck and in the most part still getting away with it at the moment. I think this slabbing lark should be regulated more aspecially with the rising market.

[RLC35 288]

eBay only allows slabs certified by the following private companies, to be listed as "Certified."

ANACS

PCGS

NGC

NCS (division of NGC)

PMG

Of the above companies, PCGS and NGC are usually considered the "Premium" slabbing companies. I am sure some will disagree on that fact however! LOL!

I have some English coins slabbed by NGC, and I think their grading is fair by US standards. The grading is not accurate by UK standards though, so you might want to keep that in mind with US grading companies.

eBay does allow pictures of other company slabs, but you cannot list coins as "certified" unless it is one of the above companies (or the Government, and the US Mint). The "pull down menu" for certification does not have any companies, except those listed above!

[freewheels 2]

RLC wrote:

eBay only allows slabs certified by the following private companies, to be listed as "Certified."

ANACS

PCGS

NGC

NCS (division of NGC)

PMG

Of the above companies, PCGS and NGC are usually considered the "Premium" slabbing companies. I am sure some will disagree on that fact however! LOL!

I have some English coins slabbed by NGC, and I think their grading is fair by US standards. The grading is not accurate by UK standards though, so you might want to keep that in mind with US grading companies.

eBay does allow pictures of other company slabs, but you cannot list coins as "certified" unless it is one of the above companies (or the Government, and the US Mint). The "pull down menu" for certification does not have any companies, except those listed above!

coin watch wrote:

Posted 01 October 2010 - 11:54 PM

I am not a great believer in slabs of any kind and also not an expert by any means on what is a good slabbing company or a bad one, but I just want to add my recent experience with the NNC slabs. I too have seen a lot of these NNC`s sold by this one ebay seller and as a collector of Charles I Tower hammered it`s not very often you come across a slabbed Chas coins but recently there have been many sold on ebay (US) and as previously said by this one seller.

Now I have to admit (with embarrassment) I recently purchased one. I have never purchased a slabbed coin before and thought it would be a novelty to put a low bid on this one particular item, I don`t know why? just boredom I suppose, but to my surprise (and later horrer) I was the winning bidder of the damn thing.

It was cheep enough but be warned if you are tempted to buy one go by the photo and judge the condition yourself and please do not spend a lot by the given condition rate. Before I received the coin I did a bit of info serching on this slabbing `company` and what I found out was quite alarming. Apparently there are 4 main well established slabbing companies and a couple more of good stand out of about 20 odd in the US alone, but the most interesting thing was the reliabilty of the `others` with the mentioned NNC coming out as one of the worst if not THE worst.

Freewheels:

How does ICG stack up (some of their grading opinions look doable to me)?

Also a corny question: PCGS AU 58 on a Chas 2 sixpence (without being able to upload pics until my scanner talks to my computer) in UK grading is it NEF or could it make it to EF?

[azda 973]

You just have to take a look through his negative feedback to see that the grade on his holders are less than the coins actually are. Many have resubmitted the coins they have purchased from him to PCGS etc and they are coming back in lesser grades and also with the words CLEANED. This tool needs reporting.

The other greater issue with this is the fact that if he can obtain slabs and slab his own, then i'm sure fakes can also be done in this simple manner also, very worrying

Edited October 2, 2010 by azda

[£400 for a Penny ? 0]

I believe I am right in saying that there was someone faking PCGS slabs some while back - a slightly different slant on the whole thing...

[argentumandcoins 70]

Anybody can obtain slabs (if you check you will see they are freely available on ebay).

The simple answer is GRADE THE COIN YOURSELF BEFORE YOU BUY/BID.

I have had a couple from centsles over the years and had bought them on scarcity rather than grade. They were collection purchases so the slab got cracked as soon as the coins arrived, because as I have already stated "mahogany looks better than plastic"

CGS is owned by Steve Lockett of London Coin Auctions, so in answer to Daves question, he has seen/handled/photographed hundreds of thousands of coins.

I know that he will never give a coin 100 on the slab because he has said himself "how can you grade a coin at 100 (his top grading score)? What if a better one comes along?"

A second grading house is the last thing we need in the UK. The members often talk on here about huge sums of money paid for Bun Pennies as being some sort of ego trip, when in reality it is a small group of collectors chasing a missing date/variety in their collection (Yes, I am one of the small group on occasion). Slabbed coins fetch a disproportionately high amount if they are the "highest grade slabbed to date", now correct me if I'm wrong but that really is a pissing competition? When people start paying 3 figure sums for George V common date coins just because "mine's better than yours" it's time to give up.

There are a couple of benefits to slabbing, the main one being the fact that according to the slab your coin is not a forgery, unfortunately there are now Chinese slabs on the market which contain Chinese forgery coins!!!

Ultimately you have to decide why you would want to buy a slabbed coin;

If it is because you are unsure of grade or authenticity yourself, it's time to learn how to assess a coin. There are many ways to do this ( Dereks book aside ) and should be the first thing a collector embarks upon.

If it is to protect your coin long term, fair do's.

If it is the coin you want rather than the slab, I've done it myself and will again.

If it is so you can have the best 1967 Penny recorded anywhere in the world.................

[Rob 3,000]

How does ICG stack up (some of their grading opinions look doable to me)?

Also a corny question: PCGS AU 58 on a Chas 2 sixpence (without being able to upload pics until my scanner talks to my computer) in UK grading is it NEF or could it make it to EF?

I've always found IGC to be consistent in their grading and have never seen one that was wildly at odds with my own assessment. I might not agree with many MS designations from any of the TPGs, but as long as any grading is consistent I know what to expect.

A PCGS AU58 could be anything from a really nice VF or gVF upwards. I've seen too many overgraded earlier pieces to expect otherwise.

Edited to add that as ICG and ANACS are less frequently encountered than the major players, so the sample size may not be large enough to give an opinion that is a true reflection. If the numbers encountered were larger then a different opinion might result, but to date I've not seen any howlers from either of these second tier companies. The same goes for ICCS.

Edited October 2, 2010 by Rob

[VickySilver 775]

Rob, I think that sometimes we see a PCGS58 and that it is reflecting a more technical grade so that especially on an older coin which may have had a rather poor strike and be hammered, as opposed to milled, with actually only minimal wear/friction to the resultant coin achieve the 58. When the coin is graded by how much detail remains on the coin that it may come out as a VF only.

That having been said, I have had more that a couple of disagreements with their grade number on more recent milled coinage and feel that the coin obviously must be considered on its own merits as opposed to putting too much stock in their number as you have said before.

[Peter 615]

I've bought a few coins from Centles and have been happy....just ingnore the grade attributed and grade yourself.

[Rob 3,000]

Rob, I think that sometimes we see a PCGS58 and that it is reflecting a more technical grade so that especially on an older coin which may have had a rather poor strike and be hammered, as opposed to milled, with actually only minimal wear/friction to the resultant coin achieve the 58. When the coin is graded by how much detail remains on the coin that it may come out as a VF only.

That having been said, I have had more that a couple of disagreements with their grade number on more recent milled coinage and feel that the coin obviously must be considered on its own merits as opposed to putting too much stock in their number as you have said before.

Quite frankly, the TPGs are better steering clear of hammered as they are out of their depth most of the time. The argument that they are on a learning curve isn't a wise business proposition as any coin graded will retain that grade whether remotely accurate or not. They should be slabbing and grading them (- if they must) after they have gained the technical competence, not before or while they are learning. There are too many variables with hammered to apply a single number. It might work if there were multiple grades applied for shape, wear and strike, but that would confuse things beyond belief for the casual purchaser.

[Red Riley 2]

Quite frankly, the TPGs are better steering clear of hammered as they are out of their depth most of the time. The argument that they are on a learning curve isn't a wise business proposition as any coin graded will retain that grade whether remotely accurate or not. They should be slabbing and grading them (- if they must) after they have gained the technical competence, not before or while they are learning. There are too many variables with hammered to apply a single number. It might work if there were multiple grades applied for shape, wear and strike, but that would confuse things beyond belief for the casual purchaser.

I think hammered coins are a nightmare to grade at the best of times. There was talk on here, a while back of producing some kind of informal guide to help collectors grade these coins, but it never got off the ground which is a shame.