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On the door mat this week, my copy of CCGB (very easy to use, like it) and my 1932 penny (very nice) returned from CGS UK.

CCGB value in UNC/BU - £35/£45

CGS UNC 80 - Value £200

Thoughts appreciated.

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Hmmm. It's not that rare is it, but perhaps my BU price is a little low.

What does UNC80 equate to on the Sheldon scale? UNC80 can't mean BU can it?

And who's price is £200. Is that would they estimate it would sell for? Is that what they would pay for it?

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Hmmm. It's not that rare is it, but perhaps my BU price is a little low.

What does UNC80 equate to on the Sheldon scale? UNC80 can't mean BU can it?

And who's price is £200. Is that would they estimate it would sell for? Is that what they would pay for it?

Well, I don't know if that is what they would pay for it, I suspect not, but it is what the website says the value is according to them for this individual coin. The population report is, I believe 2nd out of about 7.

I paid £80 for it from a certain Gentleman in Notting Hill. As you may know, he doesn't grade anything above AU so BU it isn't, 'cos BU doesn't really exist for old pennies in the truest sense of the word, but it is very nice - it's what I would accept as BU.

Sheldon ? Well (here I make the horse noise with my lips) earlier I posted an NGC64 RD as UNC 82 ???

Just seems such a big difference of opinion, no other 'ordinary' penny in that reign seems to be worth more than £60 (1913) and wondering if, like the 1915 and 16 it is actually rarer on the ground in tip top than billed ?

Still got nowhere near a BU 15/16, my Avatar is the closest and that's nicely toned but miles off.

Rgds.

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Well if you paid £80 for it from that certain gentleman in Notting Hill, then I do need to make sure that price goes up a bit in the next edition!

I don't see how a population figure can make it worth £200 when they have only graded 7 of them!

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Well, we are not yet on the log value scale where one man's uncirculated is not quite someone else's and a point or two on the Sheldon (or CGS) scale double or trebles the value - generally ridiculous in my opinion.

Still a nice 1932 with plenty of red and the newly reduced George's head with good strike detail and lustrous fields is more attractive than a drab brown coin with a lot of bagmarks, so a bit of a dilemma here. A 1932 or perhaps a 1934 fitting the former description might be a 65-80 pound item in my book, but not 200, at least yet. Well that is my vote.

BTW, I had thought the 1934 issue was mint darkened but have an example tha seems to have a lot of golden red to it that does not look cleaned or darkened & not to pirate this thread but does anybody else have similar experience?

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On the door mat this week, my copy of CCGB (very easy to use, like it) and my 1932 penny (very nice) returned from CGS UK.

CCGB value in UNC/BU - £35/£45

CGS UNC 80 - Value £200

Thoughts appreciated.

Book price for UNC is £40. Whilst that may be a little low, a value of £200, even for a BU example sounds overpriced. Could you upload a pic ?

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Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it is worth £200, but they are, in isolation to all those around it which are worth between £40-60. And I'm a bit perplexed because nowhere does it say 1932 is extraordinary in any way and it is a 'bog standard' Freeman 207 too, nothing 'funky' about it.

Just wondered if I was missing something.

A pic will stretch my technical capabilities, but that in itself is no bad thing, I shall try....

As far as the 1934 is concerned, one does encounter coins from a mint darkened year with some lustre occasionally, apparently due to the coins being stuck together when the 'hypo' was applied. Freeman states that all 1934 coins were mint darkened, so if you have one with some lustre, I'd say that was a good find. I think I read somewhere that unlike the later mint darkening of George VI which, as you know, had it's roots in the alloy composition, the 1934 was treated by the mint as they had conducted a survey on circulated pennies and had discovered that shiny new ones were being hoarded and they didn't want this for some reason ?

Personally, I find them a complete turn off and only have a single specimen in my collection. I don't have a 1934 and I've never looked for one so I'm not talking from experience when I say that I'm guessing a 1934 in really mint state might be harder to find simply because the collectors of yesteryear may have felt the same way I do and the Mint achieved it's objective ?

I'd be interested to see it though ? You show me yours, and I'll show you mine ;)

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Let's see if I have pulled it off....

post-4698-1248939532_thumb.jpg

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Let's see if I have pulled it off....

post-4698-1248939532_thumb.jpg

That's a nice example, not quite as good as the BU I got from a coin fair about 9 years ago for £30 (book price at the time).

1932 mythology : rated since the late 60s as a 'scarce' penny, which only makes sense if you compare it to the vast minting of the 1936. 8 million is NOT scarce! Priced at £50 in the Coins and Medals 1970 Annual - which also lists a BU 1926ME at £150 (!), a BU 1864 at £125 (!!), and a BU 1797 twopence at £35 (!!!!!!!)

Since the great meltdown, they are actually common in lower grades as everyone saved them including me. As for finding them in BU, I've certainly seen a few at fairs (ok not that many to be honest), but in my opinion they are easier to find than BU 1930 and 1931 which I think are the scarcest two dates. 1934 is an interesting date, because of the toning to some of them - again, scarce but not impossible.

Chris, don't rush to increase CCGB values - even the latest Spink price of £100 is over-optimistic I feel and simply panders to the myth that this is a scarce penny. £200 is just the height of absurdity for one of these. You might as well ask the same price for a 1940 "single exergue line" BU, which is hardly ever seen.

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Do I detect that slabbing is inflating coin prices? ;)

Slabbing whilst it has it's uses (don't get me wrong I have some slabbed coins), in the long run it seems to encourage collecting for the slab rather than the coin. One slabbing company says a coin is MS65 it fetches one price, crack it out resubmit to another slabbing company and they give it MS66 and suddenly the price has gone up by half or even double. Where the difference between grades is the opinion of how many minor surface marks are allowed or whether the strike is average or slightly above average for issue.

Let me put it another way, you're not actually paying for a grade but more eye appeal, but eye appeal is subjective so how can a grading company turn it into an objective science? Which I believe is the fundamental flaw with the slabbing industry. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As for value, well a coin is only worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay for it at any one time. Now pretend you don't have this coin and you saw it for sale for 200 quid, would you buy it?

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Hmmm. It's not that rare is it, but perhaps my BU price is a little low.

What does UNC80 equate to on the Sheldon scale? UNC80 can't mean BU can it?

And who's price is £200. Is that would they estimate it would sell for? Is that what they would pay for it?

Well, I don't know if that is what they would pay for it, I suspect not, but it is what the website says the value is according to them for this individual coin. The population report is, I believe 2nd out of about 7.

I paid £80 for it from a certain Gentleman in Notting Hill. As you may know, he doesn't grade anything above AU so BU it isn't, 'cos BU doesn't really exist for old pennies in the truest sense of the word, but it is very nice - it's what I would accept as BU.

Sheldon ? Well (here I make the horse noise with my lips) earlier I posted an NGC64 RD as UNC 82 ???

Just seems such a big difference of opinion, no other 'ordinary' penny in that reign seems to be worth more than £60 (1913) and wondering if, like the 1915 and 16 it is actually rarer on the ground in tip top than billed ?

Still got nowhere near a BU 15/16, my Avatar is the closest and that's nicely toned but miles off.

Rgds.

Blimey...

I bought a real corker from the same gentleman in 2001 for £33. Reasonable to say that prices have gone up considerably since then, but still looks a good buy. These were not common coins at all, and you could wait for months to get one in your change; looks as if the market is beginning to notice. In the meantime I am pleased with my investment (cf. stocks and shares anyone?).

As you probably know, Michael Gouby is to pennies what Colin Cooke was to farthings. To understand his grading, just substitute PAS (practically as struck) for Unc. but he grades less than 1 in 100 lustrous coins this way, so anything carrying that description is pretty special.

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Do I detect that slabbing is inflating coin prices? ;)

Slabbing whilst it has it's uses (don't get me wrong I have some slabbed coins), in the long run it seems to encourage collecting for the slab rather than the coin. One slabbing company says a coin is MS65 it fetches one price, crack it out resubmit to another slabbing company and they give it MS66 and suddenly the price has gone up by half or even double. Where the difference between grades is the opinion of how many minor surface marks are allowed or whether the strike is average or slightly above average for issue.

Let me put it another way, you're not actually paying for a grade but more eye appeal, but eye appeal is subjective so how can a grading company turn it into an objective science? Which I believe is the fundamental flaw with the slabbing industry. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

As for value, well a coin is only worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay for it at any one time. Now pretend you don't have this coin and you saw it for sale for 200 quid, would you buy it?

Yes, yes, yes. Agree with all of that. The asking price for anything slabbed seems to be astronomical compared with the market. Use your own eyes and refuse to pay ridiculous prices for coins. For 'slab' read 'bubble'.

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Do I detect that slabbing is inflating coin prices? ;)

As for value, well a coin is only worth what the highest bidder is willing to pay for it at any one time. Now pretend you don't have this coin and you saw it for sale for 200 quid, would you buy it?

Yes, yes, yes. Agree with all of that. The asking price for anything slabbed seems to be astronomical compared with the market. Use your own eyes and refuse to pay ridiculous prices for coins. For 'slab' read 'bubble'.

Undated 20p anyone. Now one of those in a slab ooooooh

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That's a nice example, not quite as good as the BU I got from a coin fair about 9 years ago for £30 (book price at the time).

1932 mythology : rated since the late 60s as a 'scarce' penny, which only makes sense if you compare it to the vast minting of the 1936. 8 million is NOT scarce! Priced at £50 in the Coins and Medals 1970 Annual - which also lists a BU 1926ME at £150 (!), a BU 1864 at £125 (!!), and a BU 1797 twopence at £35 (!!!!!!!)

Since the great meltdown, they are actually common in lower grades as everyone saved them including me. As for finding them in BU, I've certainly seen a few at fairs (ok not that many to be honest), but in my opinion they are easier to find than BU 1930 and 1931 which I think are the scarcest two dates. 1934 is an interesting date, because of the toning to some of them - again, scarce but not impossible.

Chris, don't rush to increase CCGB values - even the latest Spink price of £100 is over-optimistic I feel and simply panders to the myth that this is a scarce penny. £200 is just the height of absurdity for one of these. You might as well ask the same price for a 1940 "single exergue line" BU, which is hardly ever seen.

Crikey, 3 posts on the trot!

I can see where you are coming from but I don't necessarily agree. 1930 and 1931 were more common coins. Anybody collecting at or before decimalisation will concur with that. The mechanics of first hand collection (i.e. the people collecting at the time) meant that fewer were put aside in high grade i.e. in years when less were minted (and the figures issued by the mint for this period look about right), some collectors - the less tenacious - just didn't find one and gave up, hence there have always been less available for the collector. Some years are exceptional and a 'goldrush' effect takes over e.g. 1950 and '51 where the word went around that the coins were rare and virtually every single one still exists in EF and above, but this didn't happen in the thirties.

It may sometimes appear that e.g. high grade 1932 pennies are more common than they are, but with a higher price, a higher potential for subsequent growth and an element of realising profits, the market may just be more efficient at flushing them out.

Hope this makes sense!

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These were not common coins at all, and you could wait for months to get one in your change; looks as if the market is beginning to notice. In the meantime I am pleased with my investment (cf. stocks and shares anyone?).

I don't know what period you're talking about Red? I can tell you that from 1968 to 1970, when I used to take my pocket money into the banks and get bags of pennies to look through - these were by no means scarce in my experience. I used to save them, plus 1926, and 1922, plus genuine rarities if I was lucky enough to find them (a fair few 19H, a tub of 12H, one 18KN, one 1953 - interestingly no 02LT or 18H, and though every dealer was selling 50 and 51 they NEVER turned up in change!) . It's just embarrassing how many of them all I ended up with, all filed away for future "investment" (hah!). I'm betting so many other schoolkids and collectors were doing the same, they are now no scarcer in lower grades than some of the commoner dates.

And as for BU, well all I can say is, I've seen a few, but rarely a BU 1930 (in fact, I'm not sure I ever have).

Bottom line, 8 million does not a scarce penny make! To me, and this is my own personal opinion only, the 1932 penny 'mystique' is just a joke. If I were nominating rare BU pennies I would say 1915 and 1916, 1926, 1930.

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These were not common coins at all, and you could wait for months to get one in your change; looks as if the market is beginning to notice. In the meantime I am pleased with my investment (cf. stocks and shares anyone?).

I don't know what period you're talking about Red? I can tell you that from 1968 to 1970, when I used to take my pocket money into the banks and get bags of pennies to look through - these were by no means scarce in my experience. I used to save them, plus 1926, and 1922, plus genuine rarities if I was lucky enough to find them (a fair few 19H, a tub of 12H, one 18KN, one 1953 - interestingly no 02LT or 18H, and though every dealer was selling 50 and 51 they NEVER turned up in change!) . It's just embarrassing how many of them all I ended up with, all filed away for future "investment" (hah!). I'm betting so many other schoolkids and collectors were doing the same, they are now no scarcer in lower grades than some of the commoner dates.

And as for BU, well all I can say is, I've seen a few, but rarely a BU 1930 (in fact, I'm not sure I ever have).

Bottom line, 8 million does not a scarce penny make! To me, and this is my own personal opinion only, the 1932 penny 'mystique' is just a joke. If I were nominating rare BU pennies I would say 1915 and 1916, 1926, 1930.

Snap! The period I was rifling through all the pennies in my father's shop was exactly that, 68-70 (71 actually). I found a few 02 LTs, 18Hs, 19Hs and amazingly a 1918 Royal Mint with 35% lustre (but never a KN or a 53). One other Saturday boy used to collect as well and we used to scrap over the 'rarities'. Of the 'straight' dates (if you ignore anything genuinely rare, or before 1895) 26 and 32 were always the scarcest, we really didn't bother with anything else. In the cold light of day, neither are genuinely rare, just scarcer than the others. Changing tack slightly, I think what makes Hs and KNs so unusual in the high grades is that most people that collected new - that have ever collected new, right back to the Greeks - are just like we were, 12 year old kids and nobody told them about the little marks to the left of the date. Hence, one new penny per year would, unless they were very lucky have been the bog standard Royal Mint issue.

Ah, happy days...

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Snap! The period I was rifling through all the pennies in my father's shop was exactly that, 68-70 (71 actually). I found a few 02 LTs, 18Hs, 19Hs and amazingly a 1918 Royal Mint with 35% lustre (but never a KN or a 53). One other Saturday boy used to collect as well and we used to scrap over the 'rarities'. Of the 'straight' dates (if you ignore anything genuinely rare, or before 1895) 26 and 32 were always the scarcest, we really didn't bother with anything else. In the cold light of day, neither are genuinely rare, just scarcer than the others. Changing tack slightly, I think what makes Hs and KNs so unusual in the high grades is that most people that collected new - that have ever collected new, right back to the Greeks - are just like we were, 12 year old kids and nobody told them about the little marks to the left of the date. Hence, one new penny per year would, unless they were very lucky have been the bog standard Royal Mint issue.

Ah, happy days...

Happy days indeed! I did wait ages before my first 1926 penny, and then it was another year into collecting before I discovered (a moment of dawning bliss) that it was a Modified Effigy.

I have another theory about the H and KN pennies. I have a 1919H penny that has virtually no wear on it, but virtually no hair either! I think that the two assistant mints used their dies for longer than the Royal Mint did, and the portrait - being so deeply cut that it caused the infamous reverse 'ghosting' - took the brunt of the strike and wore fastest. So the H and KN pennies often got struck up on worn dies leaving fewer specimens well struck up (or maybe even, the Royal Mint passed already wearing obverse dies to Heaton and Kings Norton to save money). Another factor may also be the different alloy used by the two mints : you'll have noticed I'm sure, that H pennies are usually darker and blacker in colour than usual, while the KN pennies are virtually always a reddish/brown colour. Maybe if the alloys were slightly harder, it wore the dies out faster.

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Another factor may also be the different alloy used by the two mints : you'll have noticed I'm sure, that H pennies are usually darker and blacker in colour than usual, while the KN pennies are virtually always a reddish/brown colour. Maybe if the alloys were slightly harder, it wore the dies out faster.

All interesting stuff. I think dies were used to death virtually everywhere in the period 1915-20 and the quality of the end product can be dreadful, and you may be right that the two private mints tried to eke every bit of use out of their dies, just to make that tiny bit of extra profit.

I also have a theory though that the alloys scarcely differed throughout the entire period of production (apart from those notified by the mint), and it is the source of the copper and possibly where it was smelted that creates the different colour - i.e. the level and chemical composition of impurities and the proportion of these removed during smelting. It's all a bit complicated but I might post a thread about it one day. King's Norton clearly used a very consistent source of supply, possibly with some ferrous contamination in the copper.

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Another factor may also be the different alloy used by the two mints : you'll have noticed I'm sure, that H pennies are usually darker and blacker in colour than usual, while the KN pennies are virtually always a reddish/brown colour. Maybe if the alloys were slightly harder, it wore the dies out faster.

All interesting stuff. I think dies were used to death virtually everywhere in the period 1915-20 and the quality of the end product can be dreadful, and you may be right that the two private mints tried to eke every bit of use out of their dies, just to make that tiny bit of extra profit.

I also have a theory though that the alloys scarcely differed throughout the entire period of production (apart from those notified by the mint), and it is the source of the copper and possibly where it was smelted that creates the different colour - i.e. the level and chemical composition of impurities and the proportion of these removed during smelting. It's all a bit complicated but I might post a thread about it one day. King's Norton clearly used a very consistent source of supply, possibly with some ferrous contamination in the copper.

"Not a lot of people know this" ... but, have you noticed there are sometimes ordinary pennies from 1912 to 1919 with the same reddish/brown colour as the KN pennies? Apparently, Kings Norton supplied blanks to the Mint throughout that period. So I treasure my 1912KN penny !

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Some absolutely fascinating posts in this thread, guys, giving a real insight into the pennies of the George V era, and their state at the close of the 1960's.

I wonder if there are in fact any 1918/1919 H or KN in uncirculated state anywhere. Has anybody ever seen one ?

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Another factor may also be the different alloy used by the two mints : you'll have noticed I'm sure, that H pennies are usually darker and blacker in colour than usual, while the KN pennies are virtually always a reddish/brown colour. Maybe if the alloys were slightly harder, it wore the dies out faster.

All interesting stuff. I think dies were used to death virtually everywhere in the period 1915-20 and the quality of the end product can be dreadful, and you may be right that the two private mints tried to eke every bit of use out of their dies, just to make that tiny bit of extra profit.

I also have a theory though that the alloys scarcely differed throughout the entire period of production (apart from those notified by the mint), and it is the source of the copper and possibly where it was smelted that creates the different colour - i.e. the level and chemical composition of impurities and the proportion of these removed during smelting. It's all a bit complicated but I might post a thread about it one day. King's Norton clearly used a very consistent source of supply, possibly with some ferrous contamination in the copper.

"Not a lot of people know this" ... but, have you noticed there are sometimes ordinary pennies from 1912 to 1919 with the same reddish/brown colour as the KN pennies? Apparently, Kings Norton supplied blanks to the Mint throughout that period. So I treasure my 1912KN penny !

My 1912 penny is GVF and reddish.

I had noticed the different colouring, and often wondered what the precise chemical composition of the metals were. It would be a tantalising bit of research to find out what went were, and who used what. Although I suspect well nigh impossible to get meaningful information after nearly a century.

Edited by 1949threepence

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Now you come to mention it, my 'main collection' 1912 penny has reddish lustre which is very different from the lustre on my 12H. I wonder how far this supply agreement went back - I have a distinctly KN coloured 1893 in a bag somewhere.

Personally, I think chemical analysis of different hued bronze coins could still yield a lot of useful information, such as establishing the geographical origin of the metal.

Finally, truly uncirculated 18/19 H/KNs do come up from time to time, but like most of us, I've never been able to afford one!

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i have a worn 1893.. it looks like any other 1890's penny in circulation until 1970, except it, is brown and not black, it is very worn, (full legend queen just worn flat

i do have a KN 1912 and i did notice a differance

962787.jpg

now it might be that it is slighlt better grade then your average 1912 but the colour doesnt seem to have darkened as much as usual

i have a 1918 KN with normal wear and it is brown (like the 1893)

963729.jpg

now this is worn as you can see, coins like this have usualy gone black or very dark brown

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I have seen some 'amateur' research carried out on the George V pennies concerning colour and the composition of the metals. Part of this if I remember right included a letter from the chairman of the Kings Norton company confirming some composition aspects of the metals used. Quite where this came from I am not sure, but I suspect it was an article in Coin Monthly from the 1970s. If I get a chance I'll see if I can find it. Alternatively, Aardhawk seems to be well up on the contents of Coin Monthly and might be able to enlighten us.

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The fact is, I've never seen a 1912/18/19H that wasn't nearly black, and I've never seen a KN that wasn't red/brown.

And, I've never seen an Unc KN in the flesh, but the few pictures I've seen show a very flattened portrait, i.e. not well struck up. Much like my 1919H, which if you look at the legend, shield, etc, appears to have no wear at all, but has the hair detail you would expect on a coin that is about Fine. (And the coin is already a dark colour - almost like a Mint darkened penny but without that gorgeous purple sheen you see on the farthings.)

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