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Peckris

1887 wreath reverse 6d variety

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I will try to upload a picture of this (never done it before! fingers crossed ...) so you can see more clearly. The variety is on the left.

The key differences are in the date : the first 8 appears to be overstruck on another 8 (much higher), while the 7 is twice as far from the second 8 as on the normal issue.

Comments are invited - when I sent this to Spink, their comment was that there are numerous minor date varieties on all 19th Century coins, too many to be significant. My response to this would be that improvements in die-cutting from the mid 1880s onwards makes such varieties very much more significant. (Pennies from around 1882 or 1883, and silver from around the same dates, are very uniform).

post-4737-1246450856_thumb.jpg

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I have to say that there is definitely variety in the date spacing, but this is not uncommon, even in coins dating up to the 1890's. I am interested in such varieties on farthings, and you will see from my site there are plenty of varieties even in the later dates of the 19th century. The important questions are:

Will it command a premium? - Probably a small increase over a typical coin of that date but until a variety is widely known and coveted by collectors the real market value will be unknown.

Is it of interest? - To variety collectors like myself, yes (but only if its a farthing :D )

Just my humble opinion of course

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saw a nice penny dated 1963 on ebay with a differant spreading then usual... 18 63. missed dout on it though :(

but yea many date spreads even number types (1860, 61,62 especially had many spreads, and 1862 had differant angled 2's, have one posted here with 2 over 2...) even into edward 7th there were differant spreads

as i have one of these i'll slap the image up

962886.jpg

i'll let you decide, i'll get a better one of the date tomorrow

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Thank you Colin, Scott, for your replies. Colin, I am aware that there are date width discrepancies even until the bronze penny reverses of Edward VII, but I've never seen them in the Jubilee Head silver series.

I didn't point it out, but actually, it's not just the date - the 7 is simply the most dramatic and easy to see difference. When I saw this coin first, even though it is so small I could tell immediately "hey, there's something different, something unusual about this".

To enumerate as many as I can :

A toothed border; the regular is much more 'beaded'.

A different style to the wreath ribbons - the folds not shown, and thinner generally.

The left hand twig points to a space where on the regular, it points almost over a bead.

The first 8 has a faint loop above it, as if another 8 was begun to be cut too high up. (Overstrike? Error?)

The 7 is a more open style, mainly due to a thinner base stroke

Scott, I can see at a glance that your sixpence is the regular variety. It's about the 'feel' of the reverse, which is what drew me to the variety in the first place.

I'm not interested in the value, but I AM interested in having the variety recognised and recorded.

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I'm now 99% certain that this IS a distinct and unusual variety. My reason for saying so is that I went out of my way to examine the reverses of as many 1887 Young Head sixpences as I can find pictures for. They are all, without exception, the "normal" type, as in the second picture I provided for comparison.

So, what happened? The original reverse for 1887 JH was - as we all know - the shield reverse. That was minted in large quantities before being withdrawn over gold-plating-counterfeit paranoia. Then the wreath reverse was reinstated (not introduced - there were 1887 reverse dies already existing, from the YH).

It is difficult to say where my variety comes into the picture. My hunch is that it was a rejected early die for the Young Head issue of 1887, but perhaps the regular die wore out before completing the 1887 JH issue; then this one was hauled out of retirement to complete the issue, though as yet I've not heard of any other specimens.

One thing we can reject : that there are minor variations to the date numerals after the Mint was electrified in the early 1880s. We see on all coins - the pennies are the clearest evidence for this - that there is uniformity where before there was all kinds of variation. Freeman lists only a single penny reverse die used between 1884 and 1894. After that, the 1903 "open 3" penny variety is the only date anomaly. On silver coins after the early 1880s, there seem to be no variations recorded for date numerals.

Just as a footnote, I will list all the variations on this reverse (it's not just the date) :

1. The position of the 7

2. The pointing of the 7

3. The overstrike first 8

4. The more open 7

5. Different shape border teeth

6. Recut ribbon (on my variety, the ribbon is virtually indistinguishable in style from the twigs; on the normal variety, the right-hand ribbon is almost invisible where it joins the knot above the 8)

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The 1877 6d reverse is different again (there's a BU one for sale on this site); the ribbons are a different shape slightly, though interestingly the "18" is identical. Also the word "SIX" looks different too, though that may simply be the angle of the picture.

I think I would like to see every 6d reverse from say 1880 to 1887 and study the differences (where they exist). There ARE differences to these reverses but it seems no-one has made a study of them?

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Right, here is a closer look :all the 1887 sixpence reverses on eBay right now.

post-4737-1252940298_thumb.jpg

Two conclusions :

One. I was wrong about the lack of variation - I see two distinct types among that group :

A. First 8 points to a border tooth; teeth are short (numbers 2, 6, 7, 8)

B. First 8 points between teeth; teeth are long (numbers 3, 4, 5)

There is also A2. : The 7 is squared off at the bottom, instead of rounded (number 7)

However, I only captured the reverses - I didn't also note whether they were YH or JH (the great majority were JH).

Two. NONE of those reverses shows the 'floating 7' nor the overstrike that my variety displays. In fact, as the position of the 7 - which is by far the most noticeable thing - isn't exciting anyone, I will re-categorise my find as '8 over 8', with the position of the 7 as the other identifier.

Thoughts?

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If any of you have 1887 wreath reverse sixpences (JH or YH) could you check them for me? And if you have pictures you could upload, it will help considerably. :)

Thanks

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i#'ll update my picture tomorrow, get a sharper image on the date.

i did find this when getting my 1887 out again

is it me or is the 5 on this 1895 spaced further away from the 9 then usual

967409.jpg

picture is rubbish... but you can see the spacing... i'll update the image of that too

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I have to say that there is definitely variety in the date spacing, but this is not uncommon, even in coins dating up to the 1890's. I am interested in such varieties on farthings, and you will see from my site there are plenty of varieties even in the later dates of the 19th century. The important questions are:

Will it command a premium? - Probably a small increase over a typical coin of that date but until a variety is widely known and coveted by collectors the real market value will be unknown.

Is it of interest? - To variety collectors like myself, yes (but only if its a farthing :D )

Just my humble opinion of course

I agree with you.

Whilst some subtle differences are apparent, are they obvious enough, or well known enough to command a premium over other "commoner" types ? The other problem is that on new variant discoveries, we don't really know how many there actually are. We might know that some seem less common than others, but the true extent of the type identified, remains largely unknown.

I would say that the less quantifiable and/or obvious, the less the interest, and therefore the less the premium.

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it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

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I have to say that there is definitely variety in the date spacing, but this is not uncommon, even in coins dating up to the 1890's. I am interested in such varieties on farthings, and you will see from my site there are plenty of varieties even in the later dates of the 19th century. The important questions are:

Will it command a premium? - Probably a small increase over a typical coin of that date but until a variety is widely known and coveted by collectors the real market value will be unknown.

Is it of interest? - To variety collectors like myself, yes (but only if its a farthing :D )

Just my humble opinion of course

I agree with you.

Whilst some subtle differences are apparent, are they obvious enough, or well known enough to command a premium over other "commoner" types ? The other problem is that on new variant discoveries, we don't really know how many there actually are. We might know that some seem less common than others, but the true extent of the type identified, remains largely unknown.

I would say that the less quantifiable and/or obvious, the less the interest, and therefore the less the premium.

"Quantifiable" is an unknown at present.

"Well known" is what I'm trying to do something about, via this forum.

"Obvious"? To me, it is very obvious, but I would say that wouldn't I? Let me say this, I've now looked at quite a few 1887 sixpence reverses, and can see at a glance whether the 7 is twice the distance from the 8 as it should be. As for the overstrike, on an example in EF or better, that too seems obvious to me. So far, I've seen no other examples of this defined and clearly different variety. (Scott, thanks for your upload - I can see right off that yours is the normal JH reverse).

it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

Sometimes the close or wide spacing is a deliberate die difference. The spacing on an 1893 farthing - while less obvious than my 1887 sixpence - is a "known" variety and commands a premium. Likewise the wide or narrow spaced dates found on bun pennies of the 1870s. I didn't know about Vic OH pennies but I'm sure you're right.

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could you give me phone number and I will give you a ring please. Quite a lot to discus

athorburn@hotmail.co.uk

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it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

The 1896 Penny that i showed in the "Coin aquisiton of the week" Scott, you quoted that it was the most common with a wide gap between the 18 and 96, now its something different? So much confusion between collectors equals chaos me thinks

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it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

And your reply to this Scott in coin aquisition of the week was "the close 96 is the most common, but still a nice 1896" yet now in CCGB its something else? So a new opinion now because of CCGB?

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i think 1896 is the exception, most 1896 i have seen have that spread, other dates its usualy the #2 #3 spread thats more common, with #1 being narrow etc

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Dear Peckris

I was hoping you might email a phone number so that we might discus your thoughts on the variety. I have had a couple of days to work on your coin and the pictures provided. The reverse pictures nos.1-8 fall into the two groups you describe and are attributable to the YH and JH sixpences. The first 8 aligns with a bead on the JH and slightly between for the YH similarly the beads are longer for the YH and rounder for the JH. You say the reverse die was already available from the YH coinage to use for the 2nd. jubilee issue. This is not strictly true as the two crowns are totally different. Now to your variety. I have traced and overlaid the images you helpfully provided and compared with my collection. The images are not quite the same size but even so there is the positioning of the 7 which is almost 1/3 of a bead further over this together with the strong ribbon towards the knot (centre) seems to add weight to your case. I have examined 27 sixpences in my own collection both YH & JH including proofs and all the listed varieties of obverse and reverse. The one thing to note is that there is a progressive deterioration in the right hand ribbon which on the early strikes is well defined but as, presumably wear and tear, takes its toll, the ribbon breaks up from the knot outward. This is clear on your pictures 8 & 7 in that order. You did of course notice that picture 1 is of an 1837 sixpence not 1887. It would be helpful to see full pictures of your variation and I would like to, with your approval, include a mention in the book I am compiling on the 1887 coinage. You will not be surprised to know there are upwards of 28 different 6d and all the small differences do not make a lot of difference except to those that are sufficiently interested. I should be pleased to talk to you about it. 07967505509

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Dear Peckris

I was hoping you might email a phone number so that we might discus your thoughts on the variety. I have had a couple of days to work on your coin and the pictures provided. The reverse pictures nos.1-8 fall into the two groups you describe and are attributable to the YH and JH sixpences. The first 8 aligns with a bead on the JH and slightly between for the YH similarly the beads are longer for the YH and rounder for the JH. You say the reverse die was already available from the YH coinage to use for the 2nd. jubilee issue. This is not strictly true as the two crowns are totally different. Now to your variety. I have traced and overlaid the images you helpfully provided and compared with my collection. The images are not quite the same size but even so there is the positioning of the 7 which is almost 1/3 of a bead further over this together with the strong ribbon towards the knot (centre) seems to add weight to your case. I have examined 27 sixpences in my own collection both YH & JH including proofs and all the listed varieties of obverse and reverse. The one thing to note is that there is a progressive deterioration in the right hand ribbon which on the early strikes is well defined but as, presumably wear and tear, takes its toll, the ribbon breaks up from the knot outward. This is clear on your pictures 8 & 7 in that order. You did of course notice that picture 1 is of an 1837 sixpence not 1887. It would be helpful to see full pictures of your variation and I would like to, with your approval, include a mention in the book I am compiling on the 1887 coinage. You will not be surprised to know there are upwards of 28 different 6d and all the small differences do not make a lot of difference except to those that are sufficiently interested. I should be pleased to talk to you about it. 07967505509

Hi! Thanks for that. I'm DM'ing you my phone number (if the unaccustomed slowness of the forum tonight will let me)

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sorry for coming into this thread late, but i was wondering if there was an update on whether this had become a recognised variety or not, or is the investigation still ongoing?

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sorry for coming into this thread late, but i was wondering if there was an update on whether this had become a recognised variety or not, or is the investigation still ongoing?

Define "recognised"! 1887 and I have exchanged views, pictures, and expertise (his more than mine), and the upshot is that it should appear in an upcoming book he hopes to write on the subject. We both agree that it is a previously unknown variety. However,getting other people interested is a MAJOR task. When you consider some members of this forum have orgasms over a nearly-disappeared half colon, you would think there would be more enthusiasm really. It only goes to prove the old adage "MY variety is interesting and endlessly fascinating. Yours? Pah." :lol:

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sorry for coming into this thread late, but i was wondering if there was an update on whether this had become a recognised variety or not, or is the investigation still ongoing?

Define "recognised"! 1887 and I have exchanged views, pictures, and expertise (his more than mine), and the upshot is that it should appear in an upcoming book he hopes to write on the subject. We both agree that it is a previously unknown variety. However,getting other people interested is a MAJOR task. When you consider some members of this forum have orgasms over a nearly-disappeared half colon, you would think there would be more enthusiasm really. It only goes to prove the old adage "MY variety is interesting and endlessly fascinating. Yours? Pah." :lol:

I think this true in all areas of collecting. The way to succeed is to collect something no one else does; write the standard work, then make a bundle selling you collection

Before Peck and Freeman. very few people collected copper and bronze. The little book by ?Harris reprinted by Spink "European Copper Coins" recommmends them as cheap items for children to collect.

The Peck & Freeman varieties ar here to stay, only time will tell whether the Gouby classification gains credence

David

Edited by davidrj

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it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

And your reply to this Scott in coin aquisition of the week was "the close 96 is the most common, but still a nice 1896" yet now in CCGB its something else? So a new opinion now because of CCGB?

I thought as the subject of date spacing has been brought up I would dig out an old thread from ages ago concerning date spacings on vic bronze pennies and other varieties. Might be of interest to to you and others azda.

Date spacings

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recognized as a variety, accepted as a variety, appearing in print as a variety.....you tell me, i was simply asking as a 6d collector if there had been any progress since the last posts!!!!!.

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it says in collectors coin under victorian OH pennies, that closer or wider spaced dates are worth slightly more.

i have some penny examples of date spacing

And your reply to this Scott in coin aquisition of the week was "the close 96 is the most common, but still a nice 1896" yet now in CCGB its something else? So a new opinion now because of CCGB?

I thought as the subject of date spacing has been brought up I would dig out an old thread from ages ago concerning date spacings on vic bronze pennies and other varieties. Might be of interest to to you and others azda.

Date spacings

It would probably be better to start a new thread on Viccie Pennies alone, as there seems to be so many of us collecting in that area. Then anyone with date spacing, missing colons and oversstrikes could post them in there so that the other members who dislike the whole idea of a missing colon being a variety etc need not enter if they choose :D Personally i'm being drawn towards copper overstrikes as a collection type

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