1854 Penny varieties

[Stechlin 0]

Hi!

Nobody has answered to my question concerning my 1850 Farthing. I can imagine three good reasons. 1) Stupid question 2) Coin is to worn 3) All the experts are on holiday. - But anyway, I have received so many helpful hints here, I start another try.

I have nine 1854 Pennies, the most common date, I mean the largest mintage of all the Victorian copper Pennies. But as far as I can see, nobody really cares about the varieties for that year. Michael Gouby offers very helpul pictures for varieties to other Victorian Copper Pennies, especially concerning the design of the date on his website, but only one for that year of mintage ( http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1854.htm ). If I compare this with the literatur to the varieties of the Bronze Coinage of Victorian Pennies from 1860 to 1901, with all the different Obverse and Reverse types and their combinations, I'm a bit astonished. As my picture easily shows, there are a lot of varieties and I just took a look at the varieties in the design of the date. - So my question: Is there any interesting literature, I haven't heard of?.

Holger

[Stechlin 0]

To get any reply to my posting, haha:

1) I' m still looking for a "4 over 3" variety, but I don't even know, how that variety looks like. If somebody has a picture of that, I would be grateful, if he/she could post one.

2) I spent 2 hours to find out, how to combine 2 (or more) pictures in one picture. In my case: To put 9 pictures in one picture, and I'm quite proud to find out the right internet help, which is not as easy as it looks. I will give away that secret for every helpful answer - O.K. on request, for all the others too.

Holger

[Chingford 166]

To get any reply to my posting, haha:

1) I' m still looking for a "4 over 3" variety, but I don't even know, how that variety looks like. If somebody has a picture of that, I would be grateful, if he/she could post one.

2) I spent 2 hours to find out, how to combine 2 (or more) pictures in one picture. In my case: To put 9 pictures in one picture, and I'm quite proud to find out the right internet help, which is not as easy as it looks. I will give away that secret for every helpful answer - O.K. on request, for all the others too.

Holger

I have been helping Michael with his Copper Penny images for a couple ot years now, he does update on occassion but concentrates more on his bronze work, which I understand he hopes to update his Penny book sometime in the near future, but as you rightly say little, if any, literature is avaliable on Copper Penny and Halfpenny varaitions.

Pecks tends to ignore a fine works by Bramahs which lightly touches on the obvious variations, but nothing apart from Michaels site looks at the variations in any depth.

Unfortunately Holiday season is upon us, and the forum seasonally quiet, but I'll attach an image of the 54/3 sent to me courtesy of Gary Schindler.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/spr...3close-upHL.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/spr...4-3close-up.jpg

I am happy to try and help with any Copper questions, my area is 1825-1860 Penny and Halfpenny.

John

[Chris Perkins 223]

I think that lots of variety people don't really include date variations as varieties, because they were often re-punched into different dies and with the highest mintage (although I expect most were dated 1853 as that's the most common date) it's to be expected that a number of dies were used. If the only differences are the date numerals then that's probably why no-one has gone into much detail with them.

[Stechlin 0]

To get any reply to my posting, haha:

1) I' m still looking for a "4 over 3" variety, but I don't even know, how that variety looks like. If somebody has a picture of that, I would be grateful, if he/she could post one.

2) I spent 2 hours to find out, how to combine 2 (or more) pictures in one picture. In my case: To put 9 pictures in one picture, and I'm quite proud to find out the right internet help, which is not as easy as it looks. I will give away that secret for every helpful answer - O.K. on request, for all the others too.

Holger

I have been helping Michael with his Copper Penny images for a couple ot years now, he does update on occassion but concentrates more on his bronze work, which I understand he hopes to update his Penny book sometime in the near future, but as you rightly say little, if any, literature is avaliable on Copper Penny and Halfpenny varaitions.

Pecks tends to ignore a fine works by Bramahs which lightly touches on the obvious variations, but nothing apart from Michaels site looks at the variations in any depth.

Unfortunately Holiday season is upon us, and the forum seasonally quiet, but I'll attach an image of the 54/3 sent to me courtesy of Gary Schindler.

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/spr...3close-upHL.jpg

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i141/spr...4-3close-up.jpg

I am happy to try and help with any Copper questions, my area is 1825-1860 Penny and Halfpenny.

John

Hi John,

Thank you so much for those beautiful pictures of the "4 over 3" variety. Now I know, what I have to look for. And many thanks for your offer to help me with other questions about Victorian Copper Pennies. I can need this help.

I’ve heard from the Bramah book, its generally often mentioned in Pecks work (BM). Must have been a very interesting person, I took a look at wikipedia. A few days ago I’ve started to read the book from Dennis Cooper about coin striking technices, I think this is basic knowledge, otherwise I will never understand the origin of varieties at all. But unfortunately being a German, it’s very difficult to read it. Nevertheless I will try to get a copy of the Bramah book, although I must stop smoking then to find the time to read it, haha.

I visited Michael Gouby in his shop a few weeks ago during a short holiday in London. A very nice man, although I think he was bit astonished by the appearance of a German Victoria Penny collector. He told me he is looking forward to offer his new run of his Penny book in October, but he didn’t promise. - Concerning the 1854 Pennies, your answer shows in the same direction as the answer of Chris. Bad luck for me: None of my 1854 is a “4 over 3â€, so I will sell 7 of my 9 1854 Pennies and nobody will be interested in, those are not really scarce, haha. But at least I’ve learned a lesson.

S.y.s.

Holger

[Stechlin 0]

I think that lots of variety people don't really include date variations as varieties, because they were often re-punched into different dies and with the highest mintage (although I expect most were dated 1853 as that's the most common date) it's to be expected that a number of dies were used. If the only differences are the date numerals then that's probably why no-one has gone into much detail with them.

Hi Chris

Learning English sometimes is very amusing. I never heard this nice idiom "variety people", but I'm sure I know, what you are talking about and yes, I'm a member of those. - But I have to admit, I'm a bit confused now. Starting as a date runner of Victorian Bronze Pennies from 1860 to 1901 in the first step I always thought, a variety means a different die for the same coin (in that case for example a 1 Penny coin from Victoria). Best example perhaps the different dies being used for the coinage for the 1860/61 Pennies. A lot of Pennies had to be strucked changing from Copper to Bronze (large mintage), the dies lost on quality by the time and new ones had to be made. Similar, but different. Then, second step, I believe having realised, that this is not the whole truth, haha. For example the 1854 Copper coins, that was my question. Now I think, for what reasons ever existing dies have been renewed instead of producing a completely new die. So this would be another kind of a variety. Am I right or what is the reason for a “4 over 3†variety? (as one example for so many date “overstrikesâ€).

I don’t want to force you writing a new book just to answer to my question, but if you could manage to explain me with two or three sentences, what you meant with “because they were often re-punched into different dies†I would be very grateful. Otherwise you could perhaps give me a hint for literature for that special question.

Hi John. – I’m teasing Chris with this questions, although you have offered me help with this very special questions. Perhaps you could give me the answer too, I will pay the pint of lager, that Chris will pay you to answer the questions of that bloody German, haha. No problem Chris, you are living next door to me.

Thanks a lot!

Holger

[Chris Perkins 223]

As far as I was aware (and this is kind of an educated guess too based on seeing differences in numerals) a master die is created, usually as a positive larger version to be replicated as actual-size smaller versions. Surely, as the only thing that changes each year (usually) is the date, it would be a clever idea to have some kind of master without a date so that each year a date can be added manually at some stage? For dates with high mintages, the dies are not strong enough to strike all the coins so new ones have to be created.....from the master with date added manually I would assume, hence the differences in date numerals! Only where other differences occur would that indicate entirely new or re-touched dies.

My understanding is that the over-dates and over-letters are either results of the mint being too lazy and creating a die for the new date over the numerals of an existing underused die or are the result of someone 'bodging-up' an existing die which has developed a problem area (usually letters rather than date).

I'm sure there are practises that the Victorian die-sinkers and coin makers never recorded and will never precisely be known by modern-variety-people!

Ich wunsch dir alles gute aus dem Erzgebirge!

[Chingford 166]

Chris is right, a master die is created and smaller dies made from that for use in making the final coin for circulation, this is reinforced by a coin I have seen, a Copper Penny dated just with 18 and a space left on right, most probably to cut the other numerals at a later date, the coin was minted either in error or to check the die. Part of the Gregory Collection, Baldwins.

Dies were expensive to make, so lightly used dies were over filled and re cut or over cut if the number was similar in shape.

The active life of a single die would have been approx. 90,000 coins.

Re use seems to have become more common place after 1849, the introduction of the florin, according to mint papers, was to be the point when decimalisation was originally to take place, but it never happened.

The italic top, small 5, seems to close at the top of the loop giving a 'solid' appearance to the top, particularly noticable on 53, 54 and 55 dates.

Dates after 55 tend to be the flat top 5s, large date, probably to get over this problem, although italic tops still are present, probably again to making use of the older less worn dies.

[Stechlin 0]

Hi Chris!, Hi John!

Your answers are absolutely great!!! Thank you so much. My deep respect to your knowledge. Collecting varieties of the Victorian Copper Penny coinage without any idea about the reasons for the appearance of those varieties seems to me like owning a car, but not even knowing how to start it (typical German, isn`t it, haha). Well, I still can`t drive this car, but the motor sounds good and now I`m looking for the first gear.

Holger

[Hussulo 6]

Ich wunsch dir alles gute aus dem Erzgebirge!

After using Babel Fish German to English translation this is what I got:

"I desire you all good from the ore mountains!"

[Chris Perkins 223]

Exactly right! Well probably better as 'I wish you well from the Ore Mountains'. The Ore Mountains is where I live and it was the largest known deposit of silver in the world until the Spanish found some in South America.

[Hussulo 6]

Exactly right! Well probably better as 'I wish you well from the Ore Mountains'. The Ore Mountains is where I live and it was the largest known deposit of silver in the world until the Spanish found some in South America.

Oh well, I though that Babel Fish was well off. To me

"I desire you all good from the ore mountains!"

sounded like something out of Lord Of The Rings.

[Chris Perkins 223]

That's exactly how the Germans speak!! All round the wrong way and as if what they say hasn't changed in format much since the 1500s! Apart from those people that annoyingly drop in English words wherever they can to sound cool, which to me as an Englander sounds bloody stupid because they don't even pronounce them properly and if you're going to steal words you could at least do it properly.

For example, you may hear on the German equivalent of Neighbours, one of the youngsters when pondering over his friends love for a distant cousin, that he doesn't yet know is actually his half sister, say: 'Nein Tim (the young people mostly have English names that were popular in GB up to about 1983) das ist ein no go'.

Isn't that right my German friend? Ich weiss beschied.

[Stechlin 0]

I had to laugh so much about Hussolos experience with babelfish last night, when I looked at it (Lord of the rings, indeed!!). I tried it the other way round, letting babelfish translate the sentence Hussolo received from babelfish again into German. Beautiful!

Chris – Living in the “ore mountains†– what sounds very strange in my German ears -, your German is quite good. I could show you your small!! errors, but perhaps you know the nice German saying: “ Wer im Glashaus sitzt, sollte nicht mit Steinen werfenâ€. Try to find out what that means, perhaps with the help of babelfish, Hossolo, haha. What it means: My English is so awful, I should be very careful to criticise British people with their German. Otherwise “ würde ich das Echo nicht vertragenâ€, what means: I would have to expect sharp reactions.

And yes Chris, you are totally right describing the development how German people meanwhile are using English idoms without being able even to pronounce those words correctly. Only you would be able to explain Hussolo, what “Brätel to go†means, haha. But: “Du weißt Bescheidâ€.

To give this posting a drive to numismatical terms: You all know the inscription on a lot of English coins, not at last the Victorian Bronze Penny coins “Honi soit qui mal y penseâ€. I know that this is the motto of the Order of the Garter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honi_soit_qui_mal_y_pense). As it seems, Edward III (living from 1312 to 1377) still spoke French, what seems to be the language of the upper class up to this date. I’m not sure, but I think I’ve read somewhere, that the English language has been already made the “official†language by Edward I. Chris mentioned, that this bloody German language is spoken in the region of Germany today since about the 1500s (with good reasons, because it’s a difficult, but beautiful language, as the forementioned nice idioms showed), but: At what time average British people started to speak English? And what language did an average farmer speak for example in the 13.century? A kind of Latin? All the inscriptions on the hammered coinage are abbreviations of Latin words. In wide parts still today as a tradition.

[Chris Perkins 223]

Getting into complicated lingual issues now! Surely in most parts of rural England in the 13th century the proles spoke some kind of early English dialect which probably still had a lot of Saxon/German influence but was basically different enough from German to be called English?

Of course in Scotland, Wales and Cornwall that probably wouldn't have been the case. They had their very own Celtic/Pict/Gaelic tongues. And in Wales, just about still do.

French and Latin were certainly the languages used by the Church and by the upper classes but as far as I know some form of English certainly existed back then and probably had done since the Anglo-Saxon period.

I like to tell everyone here (without sounding too Right-Wing!) that I am the only true Anglo-Saxon because I'm English and live in Saxony, a Saxon-Anglo-Saxon if you like. I even know some Saxon words that not even Herr Stechlin would understand!

[Stechlin 0]

I like to tell everyone here (without sounding too Right-Wing!) that I am the only true Anglo-Saxon because I'm English and live in Saxony, a Saxon-Anglo-Saxon if you like. I even know some Saxon words that not even Herr Stechlin would understand!

Great! But in end you should be glad, that most of the forum members do know nothing about those strange people in the ore mountains, haha. I can confirm that this region has an own language, which nobody outside does understand. And there is no LEO in the internet to help. . Thank you very much for your posting. Is there any question, you cannot answer? I`m once again impressed.

Holger (alias Herr Stechlin)

[Chris Perkins 223]

I can answer any question. Whether the answer is complete nonsense or not, is for you to decide!

[Michael Freeman 0]

Hi!

Nobody has answered to my question concerning my 1850 Farthing. I can imagine three good reasons. 1) Stupid question 2) Coin is to worn 3) All the experts are on holiday. - But anyway, I have received so many helpful hints here, I start another try.

I have nine 1854 Pennies, the most common date, I mean the largest mintage of all the Victorian copper Pennies. But as far as I can see, nobody really cares about the varieties for that year. Michael Gouby offers very helpul pictures for varieties to other Victorian Copper Pennies, especially concerning the design of the date on his website, but only one for that year of mintage ( http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1854.htm ). If I compare this with the literatur to the varieties of the Bronze Coinage of Victorian Pennies from 1860 to 1901, with all the different Obverse and Reverse types and their combinations, I'm a bit astonished. As my picture easily shows, there are a lot of varieties and I just took a look at the varieties in the design of the date. - So my question: Is there any interesting literature, I haven't heard of?.

Holger

Hi! Just read your message about getting no answers to your question. The reason why I focussed on BRONZE pennies of Victoria is (a) That there are relatively IMPORTANT changes in design in it, compared with the copper (pre-1860); and ( they were accessible in change - from 1946-66, I simply put aside over 60,000 Victorian bronze pennies and learnt a lot about them that way. The pre-1860 copper had been withdrawn from circulation in 1869, a bit before my time!

Peck's 'Copper, Tin, and Bronze Coins in the British Museum' (1st ed 1964; 2nd ed. 1970) is your best book on pre-1860 copper, but still not as detailed as you will want. It was the same for me; so I wrote books on bronze - The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain, and 'The Victorian Bronze Penny'. Why don't YOU do the same for copper?? Best wishes. Michael Freeman

[Hussulo 6]

Holger

Hi! Just read your message about getting no answers to your question. The reason why I focussed on BRONZE pennies of Victoria is (a) That there are relatively IMPORTANT changes in design in it, compared with the copper (pre-1860); and ( they were accessible in change - from 1946-66, I simply put aside over 60,000 Victorian bronze pennies and learnt a lot about them that way. The pre-1860 copper had been withdrawn from circulation in 1869, a bit before my time!

Peck's 'Copper, Tin, and Bronze Coins in the British Museum' (1st ed 1964; 2nd ed. 1970) is your best book on pre-1860 copper, but still not as detailed as you will want. It was the same for me; so I wrote books on bronze - The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain, and 'The Victorian Bronze Penny'. Why don't YOU do the same for copper?? Best wishes. Michael Freeman

Wow the man, the legend!

Edited December 22, 2008 by Hussulo

[Stechlin 0]

Holger

Hi! Just read your message about getting no answers to your question. The reason why I focussed on BRONZE pennies of Victoria is (a) That there are relatively IMPORTANT changes in design in it, compared with the copper (pre-1860); and ( they were accessible in change - from 1946-66, I simply put aside over 60,000 Victorian bronze pennies and learnt a lot about them that way. The pre-1860 copper had been withdrawn from circulation in 1869, a bit before my time!

Peck's 'Copper, Tin, and Bronze Coins in the British Museum' (1st ed 1964; 2nd ed. 1970) is your best book on pre-1860 copper, but still not as detailed as you will want. It was the same for me; so I wrote books on bronze - The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain, and 'The Victorian Bronze Penny'. Why don't YOU do the same for copper?? Best wishes. Michael Freeman

Wow the man, the legend!

Hi

I couldn’t believe what I saw, when I came back from holiday and took a look at the forum. An answer from Mr. Freeman himself to a post of mine. I dared to write him a personal message tonight, just to tell him, what a big honour that is for me. I’m only a little German collector, so all of you can imagine, how pleased I was. The “legend†as Hussolo says. I think, Chris could also be proud, I’m sure, Mr. Freeman does not answer to posts in any forums, he finds in the internet. I know it’s not the first post of Mr. Freeman in the forum, but anyway.

Of course I had to laugh, when Mr. Freeman asked me about to write a book concerning the varieties of the Victorian Copper Pennies. I think I do not need to explain that. But how about you, John, Red or Chris, just to name of a few of the candidates? There is a lack of special literature indeed to that issue in my opinion.

Holger

[Stechlin 0]

Sorry Hussulo for my wrong spelling (Hussolo instead of Hussulo). It's quite late.

Holger

[Chris Perkins 223]

I'm involved with enough books, it's someone else's turn!

[Chingford 166]

I'm involved with enough books, it's someone else's turn!

I started recording all my finds etc.. two years ago, but keep finding additional information, Incl. three new reverses previously unrecorded.., I have a rule that I need to have at least two examples of each variation I find or hear of so as completely satisfy myself it is a Variety and not something made up, or just another double strike.

Michael Gouby and I share our findings but he is currently too involved with the shop and other projects as well.

I think 1825-1860 Coppers particularly has been a neglected area of numismatics, but have only looked into Pennies and Halfpennies, maybe one day I will have something, would need Colin to chip in with the farthings/fractionals bit for the finished article.

Until then, always willing to try and answer queries on the series.

[Hussulo 6]

Sorry Hussulo for my wrong spelling (Hussolo instead of Hussulo). It's quite late.

Holger

It's ok. My first name is Hus and surname is Sulo hence my unusual log in name.

I don't know Mr. Freeman personally but he has always been gracious enough to answer any questions I have had in the past, which I am very thankful for.

Some people admire football players, some rock stars, as my main focus is coin collecting I admire knowledgeable collectors who take their time out others. There are plenty of members on this forum that fall into the category, Chris, Rob, Chingford, Red R, Scottishmoney, Clive, Geoff, Colin, Jamesred, DaveG38 are just to name a few.

I still have much to learn but my passion is still running high and I feel I know have enough knowledge in some areas to help others. This to me is one of the best bits about coin collecting.

And what better way is there to transfer your knowledge to others for generations to come then a book?

If any one gets a chance, I say go for it!

Hus

Edited January 14, 2009 by Hussulo

[HistoricCoinage 115]

This to me is one of the best bits about coin collecting.

Couldn't agree more!

Secretly, I love answering emails and queries on coins. Always fun to have pictures of Anglo-Saxon pennies and the like in your inbox! Met so many great people along the way, all part of the fun.

Edited January 14, 2009 by HistoricCoinage