is it or isn't it '1909 penny'

[kel 0]

Thanks for all your input

I haven't got any real interest in collecting, I have an interest in things in geaeral, age social inpact etc, that is about how far it goes - my gran tried very hard believe me!

Here are my thoughts regarding this penny:

The sea and particularly the rock appear to be more detailed, is this because it is different die or is it because one of my 2 coins was one of the first to be stamped and the other being the last to be stamped from a particular die? The teeth being worn around the date is a real pain and therefore can only be truely established by etching to show the difference in grain size (thick and thin stamping gives a different grain sizes) but this will deface the coin even further? I am resigned to the fact that it is virtually worthless because of this. Unless There are any other distingishing marks other than the date gap which I agree is a non starter because of wear I cannot see any alternative but to say I was nearly there and give it neck and move on to the other coins.

If I put up my lists of coins (which I haven't completed yet) will you guys tell me if anything is worth investigating, also there are the foriegn coins? As I have said I was not given the whole collection, my gran always said she had the complete set from the mid 1800's and when my father gave them to me after her death, he said they are useless the best ones have gone.

Thanks again

Kel

[Colin G. 147]

I have to admit I try and look at these things logically, although what I know about pennies is probably not worth knowing!!

Unless a coin is produced in specifically low amounts for a reason (1933 penny, die letters etc), then it stands to reason that the coins are from a currency die, and therefore the die would have presumably been used until it failed. On that principle you would anticipate that many more than 10 would have been produced. This would lead me to believe that there are probably at least several thousand of this type produced, hence Freeman's estimate.

Taking into account the fact it is difficult to identify this type in lower grades this could explain why only a small proportion are currently known, but I would tend to disagree with a statement that says "only 10 are known to exist", in that I think it puts this on a par with other "genuine rarities" when it is highly likely that in actual fact many many more were produced.

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

I have to admit I try and look at these things logically, although what I know about pennies is probably not worth knowing!!

Unless a coin is produced in specifically low amounts for a reason (1933 penny, die letters etc), then it stands to reason that the coins are from a currency die, and therefore the die would have presumably been used until it failed. On that principle you would anticipate that many more than 10 would have been produced. This would lead me to believe that there are probably at least several thousand of this type produced, hence Freeman's estimate.

Taking into account the fact it is difficult to identify this type in lower grades this could explain why only a small proportion are currently known, but I would tend to disagree with a statement that says "only 10 are known to exist", in that I think it puts this on a par with other "genuine rarities" when it is highly likely that in actual fact many many more were produced.

Perhaps it would be more correct to say that "Currently. the whereabouts of only about 10 specimens are known" or maybe even more correctly " Only about 10 specimens are currently accounted for"

[scott 129]

seeing as this thread is here, need some help with this, due to wear one the N in one, and i cant quite work out which 1909 this is

[DaveG38 385]

seeing as this thread is here, need some help with this, due to wear one the N in one, and i cant quite work out which 1909 this is

Scott,

There are a number of identifiers for the two types of 1909 reverse. These are:

Rev D

• The waves to the right of Britannia are coarsely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a tooth.

• The first ‘1’ in the date points to a gap between two border teeth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point to border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is smaller and less spread.

Rev E

• The waves to the right of Britannia are more finely cut.

• Britannia’s central trident prong points to a gap between two teeth.

• The border teeth are arranged so that the ‘1’ in the date is centrally over a tooth.

• Both legs of the ‘N’ in ‘ONE’ point to gaps between border teeth.

• The uprights of the ‘P’ and ‘E’ in ‘PENNY’ point between border teeth.

• Britannia’s fist, where it grips the trident is larger, and more spread out.

Also, Rev D has 167 teeth whilst Rev E has 164.

You should be able to use some of these identifiers to establish which one you have. From the photo, it looks like rev E i.e. the rarer one, as the pointing of the 1 looks to be to a tooth and Britannia's fist appears to be the larger type. However, you need to check it in the hand.

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

[davidrj 194]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

Where can I get a copy please? Google not helpful

[DaveG38 385]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

Where can I get a copy please? Google not helpful

David,

Have sent you a message separately with the details.

Daveg38

[davidrj 194]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

Where can I get a copy please? Google not helpful

David,

Have sent you a message separately with the details.

Daveg38

Thanks!

[Gary D 76]

Perhaps we should have a poll to see how many members have a F169. For that matter a 164A and 192A as well

[Peckris 579]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

I do hope that your book includes the 1946 die flaw O N E ' penny? I managed to get Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, but I'm still working on the less-convinced Chris Perkins to get it put in CCGB ! I also bought a 1966 penny a few years back that has an 'extra wave' crashing against the lighthouse, while at the same time I managed to get a 1915 'recessed ear' penny in high grade. I'm told there are two 1937 reverses, but as they both look exactly the same at first glance, and are both very common, I find them totally unsexy As are all the minuscule variations on Elizabeth II ship halfpenny reverses. ("Oooh there's a tiny difference in the size of the ship, but you should be able to spot the difference - one has 1958 on the reverse, the other has 1959" )

[Gary D 76]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

I do hope that your book includes the 1946 die flaw O N E ' penny? I managed to get Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, but I'm still working on the less-convinced Chris Perkins to get it put in CCGB ! I also bought a 1966 penny a few years back that has an 'extra wave' crashing against the lighthouse, while at the same time I managed to get a 1915 'recessed ear' penny in high grade. I'm told there are two 1937 reverses, but as they both look exactly the same at first glance, and are both very common, I find them totally unsexy As are all the minuscule variations on Elizabeth II ship halfpenny reverses. ("Oooh there's a tiny difference in the size of the ship, but you should be able to spot the difference - one has 1958 on the reverse, the other has 1959" )

There are two 1937 reverses and two observes. I have three combinations in both currency and proof. Still looking for the forth.

[DaveG38 385]

This data comes from my own book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties', which attempts to cover all the major and minor types of 20thC bronze. You clearly need one, so buy it now!!!

I do hope that your book includes the 1946 die flaw O N E ' penny? I managed to get Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, but I'm still working on the less-convinced Chris Perkins to get it put in CCGB ! I also bought a 1966 penny a few years back that has an 'extra wave' crashing against the lighthouse, while at the same time I managed to get a 1915 'recessed ear' penny in high grade. I'm told there are two 1937 reverses, but as they both look exactly the same at first glance, and are both very common, I find them totally unsexy As are all the minuscule variations on Elizabeth II ship halfpenny reverses. ("Oooh there's a tiny difference in the size of the ship, but you should be able to spot the difference - one has 1958 on the reverse, the other has 1959" )

Hi Peckris

My book does indeed mention the 1946 die flaw ONE penny. It also mentions the different shaped '9's and double struck dates for this same year. Yes, the 1966 extra wave is also described together with the incuse peak, missing waves and short helmet plume types. Got the recessed ears for 1915 and 1916 in as well as all the 1937 types. As for the 1958 halfpennies, you are right that they are tricky to differentiate, although it can be done by examining the border teeth and the width of the border.

Hope this persuades you to buy a copy. For an independent assessment of it, you could approach Historic Coinage or Gary D.

[Peckris 579]

Hi Peckris

My book does indeed mention the 1946 die flaw ONE penny. It also mentions the different shaped '9's and double struck dates for this same year. Yes, the 1966 extra wave is also described together with the incuse peak, missing waves and short helmet plume types. Got the recessed ears for 1915 and 1916 in as well as all the 1937 types. As for the 1958 halfpennies, you are right that they are tricky to differentiate, although it can be done by examining the border teeth and the width of the border.

Hope this persuades you to buy a copy. For an independent assessment of it, you could approach Historic Coinage or Gary D.

Hi thanks for the heads up Dave. It's good to know that it is so comprehensive. I will have to think about whether to add it to my shopping list, after I've bought Red's Grading Guide.

I was being slightly satirical about the ship halfpennies - the pointlessness of that particular exercise is that each 'variety' is a single year variety - as soon as the date changes, the ship changes slightly, so I'm less than excited about them. The exception of course is those oh-so-rare 1956 varieties, and I have to confess that I've never even seen one of the rare variants of those. I don't count the varieties of the 1957 calm sea as significant, where the only difference is a minute positioning of the downstroke of the 7. The 1956 variants 'feel' radically different : teeth, rim, pointings, etc.

[scott 129]

now i do look at it in hand... i do see a slight differance in the pointing between my other 1909's, never knew i had that one

so now we have 11

[Bronze & Copper Collector 401]

Perhaps we should have a poll to see how many members have a F169. For that matter a 164A and 192A as well

I currently have one of each .....

[Rob 2,996]

Perhaps we should have a poll to see how many members have a F169. For that matter a 164A and 192A as well

I don't have any.

I only have 10 bronze pennies in total.

[scott 129]

i have loads... but my 1909 came in a bulk buy i paied a couple of quid for lol

dont have the other 2 though