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Colin G.

Clean or don't touch.......

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I know as a general rule I would always recommend against cleaning coins, but I recently purchased an 1874 G over sideways G on Ebay and am seriously considering cleaning options. The coin in question is item no 300179553874. It is heavily encrusted with hard verdigris although the areas of the coin that do not have the corrosion issues do show a good level of detail. I know the removal of the verdigris will undoubtedly result in a pitted area being left, and ultimately may make the coin worse appearance wise than it is at present.

I am willing to gamble on this one due to the level of corrosion, and the fact that the coin will be remaining with me for the foreseeable future, but I would be interested to hear in what others think of the following:

A. Should I leave it as is and accept it in its current state, or risk the clean?

B.What method of cleaning should I try if I do decide to do the clean?

1 - Electrolysis - Previously I have used electrolysis on detecting finds that were "lost causes", but that always affects the entire surface of the coin and whilst it will remove a majority of the verdigris it will give the coin the "polished" look and would probably lower the level of detail across the coin

2 - Oil - The long term oil soak from my experience usually results in a minimal improvement, but should not affect the stable areas of the coin

3 - Spot cleaning - Using a plastic pick & magnifying glass to try and prise away the verdigris. Never really tried this method previously.

4 - Other such as chemical dip etc.

Common sense would say 2 then 3 then re-assess but I am interested in the general opinions anyway.

Don't all shout at me at once :unsure:

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Nice find colin.

seen onced 1874 g over g cost 70 euro and some dirt on the side,

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I would suggest playing it safe and finding something cheap, but in a similar state, perhaps a junk box item for 20p or something. Then soak it in distilled water not tap water from the faucet. I would first soak it for a week in a covered container, preferably porcelain or bakeware and not plastic. Then I would gently work on it with a very soft, and fine brush, you can find them Vcoins.com to clean the verdigris off. With that suggestion, I would see how it works on the cheap similar condition coin then move on up to the farthing, but taking your time and being methodical. Remember you are being a conservator here, and not Dr. Destructo:) My son and I have played around with some filthy Romans using this method, and it does take time, but you do get results, and should not be disappointed.

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I know as a general rule I would always recommend against cleaning coins, but I recently purchased an 1874 G over sideways G on Ebay and am seriously considering cleaning options. The coin in question is item no 300179553874. It is heavily encrusted with hard verdigris although the areas of the coin that do not have the corrosion issues do show a good level of detail. I know the removal of the verdigris will undoubtedly result in a pitted area being left, and ultimately may make the coin worse appearance wise than it is at present.

I am willing to gamble on this one due to the level of corrosion, and the fact that the coin will be remaining with me for the foreseeable future, but I would be interested to hear in what others think of the following:

A. Should I leave it as is and accept it in its current state, or risk the clean?

B.What method of cleaning should I try if I do decide to do the clean?

1 - Electrolysis - Previously I have used electrolysis on detecting finds that were "lost causes", but that always affects the entire surface of the coin and whilst it will remove a majority of the verdigris it will give the coin the "polished" look and would probably lower the level of detail across the coin

2 - Oil - The long term oil soak from my experience usually results in a minimal improvement, but should not affect the stable areas of the coin

3 - Spot cleaning - Using a plastic pick & magnifying glass to try and prise away the verdigris. Never really tried this method previously.

4 - Other such as chemical dip etc.

Common sense would say 2 then 3 then re-assess but I am interested in the general opinions anyway.

Don't all shout at me at once :unsure:

A difficult call this one. The uncorroded parts look pretty good but I suppect that there is little left under the corrosion. I think I would be very worried keeping it in its present condition with any other coins so in this case cleaning is the only option.

I resently cleaned a 1912 1/2d that was BUNC apart from a nasty spot of black and green to one edge. I used a dip which is pretty agressive on copper but the results were very good. It is a bit pitted were the corrosion was and obviously all the toning came off but it ended up look very good and a nice golden colour but not polished looking. If you try it on a Elizebeth II coin they come out pink due to the mix but older copper can look ok.

I do have problems with coins that show some wear because they shouldn't be bright in that condition.

I say dip it.

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Colin,

Here is what it will look like with the Verdigris removed. Once that stuff is badly crusted, it means it is also eaten into the base material. This 1875-H was probably EF+ when it was lost in the ground. Good luck!

Bob C.

post-509-1197489499_thumb.jpg

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Hi Colin,

I would leave it as it is.

You are going to want a better example in the future. Until then

this one is an interesting space-filler.

Leaving it like it is you will be able to recoup your £40 odd quid

when you upgrade!

Teg

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Seconded Teq.

I've just completed all currency 1/4ds to 1672. :D

My own opinion on varieties mind I've got loads of varieties to complete (& your 1858's have got me rethinking)..and there is plenty more work to do.

I also upgrade when I can but I know I will never complete my collection to 100%. :(

There are still so many coins out there..a filler is a filler...some I wouldn't consider.... an encrusted Both G's over I will wait on.

I loved your recent 1842 a great find.

A while back on US Ebay a seller had a 2 G's over calling it an EF 1874 H (at best NVF) it was going for about $10 I whammed $350 and went to bed dreaming of a $11 bargain.

Nope...Fionafreeserve got it for about $400.

However I did pick up my 1698 exurge in N/Fine for $15 and my 1698 ledgend for $150 (described as ef ) parts are but my opinion is GF (better than Cooke collection though).....Not on Ebay but on my own intensive everyday search of the Net,

My varieties requirement would refloat Northern Rock.

Please anyone PM me for a few trades( Ive amassed a few dates 20 1915's!...a bit rare I reckon)

I need rare and common varieties but have a few rare ones to swop.

Trouble is every say 17?? 1/4 d I have is different so I always want to keep the old one.......Cheeeeze is that the time.

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Of all the many thousands, literally, of British coins I own, I have a mere 27 farthings. Sad.

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Knowing me, I would just have to try and improve it, I just couldn't live with a coin in that condition and the fact that it was so rare would annoy the hell out of me.

I have a book entitled 'Cleaning and Restoring Coins and Artefacts' by Michael J Cuddeford. I have never found it that helpful in relation to copper/bronze restoration, but to be fair my goal has usually been restoration of tone rather than full restoration on the scale that you envisage. Borrow it if you like, read it and then make up your mind.

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Peter,

I find myself redefining what I class as a variety all the time. It is difficult to know where to darw the line. That is why I always appreciate feedback on the site, to ensure it does not become unuseable or unreliable/innaccurate. As you say it is so hard to part with a coin that is different, but it is a case of needs must sometimes :(

I also upgrade when I can but I know I will never complete my collection to 100%. :( (Me Too :( )

I must admit I did not purchase the G over G as a coin to sit in my collection, but just as a temporary opportunity to view one first hand, and if the verdigris removal left a reasonable example then I had lost nothing. At that price I thought it was worth a gamble. I have to admit I also generally steer clear of coins with this level of corrosion but curiosity got the better of me!! :)

Yes the 1842 was a great find, and an opportunity I fear I will live to regret not taking myself, but only time will tell.

"A while back on US Ebay a seller had a 2 G's over calling it an EF 1874 H (at best NVF) it was going for about $10 I whammed $350 and went to bed dreaming of a $11 bargain" - Lucky you, I stayed up to watch it and got outbid, boy it was a long wait!! Even worse when you don't win!! :(

My collection is quite limited regarding George II and earlier, but I find myself drawn towards them more and more (I must resist!!)

I am always interested in swaps, the selling is mainly to move duplicates etc, but my aim is to collect not deal, so I would always consider swaps. Let me know what you are after, I have recently bagged a few purchases which are going to result in some duplicates needing to be re-homed.

For those of you interested in the G over G, I gave it a rinse yesterday and have scanned it at each stage, to record the difference. It is currently sitting in olive oil, to try and soften some of the verdigris, but I don't hold out much hope. It is such a shame that the coin is corroded, the hair detail on the coin is really sharp for an 1874H which do tend to be notoriously weak.

I will update you on progress.

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Knowing me, I would just have to try and improve it, I just couldn't live with a coin in that condition and the fact that it was so rare would annoy the hell out of me.

I have a book entitled 'Cleaning and Restoring Coins and Artefacts' by Michael J Cuddeford. I have never found it that helpful in relation to copper/bronze restoration, but to be fair my goal has usually been restoration of tone rather than full restoration on the scale that you envisage. Borrow it if you like, read it and then make up your mind.

Red,

Thanks for the offer, it really is genuinely appreciated. I have read other books on conservation, and through the detecting have "dabbled" a bit, but was interested to see what the general consensus would be from collectors on how they would approach this particular coin.

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Seconded Teq.

I've just completed all currency 1/4ds to 1672. :D

My own opinion on varieties mind I've got loads of varieties to complete (& your 1858's have got me rethinking)..and there is plenty more work to do.

I also upgrade when I can but I know I will never complete my collection to 100%. :(

There are still so many coins out there..a filler is a filler...some I wouldn't consider.... an encrusted Both G's over I will wait on.

I loved your recent 1842 a great find.

A while back on US Ebay a seller had a 2 G's over calling it an EF 1874 H (at best NVF) it was going for about $10 I whammed $350 and went to bed dreaming of a $11 bargain.

Nope...Fionafreeserve got it for about $400.

However I did pick up my 1698 exurge in N/Fine for $15 and my 1698 ledgend for $150 (described as ef ) parts are but my opinion is GF (better than Cooke collection though).....Not on Ebay but on my own intensive everyday search of the Net,

My varieties requirement would refloat Northern Rock.

Please anyone PM me for a few trades( Ive amassed a few dates 20 1915's!...a bit rare I reckon)

I need rare and common varieties but have a few rare ones to swop.

Trouble is every say 17?? 1/4 d I have is different so I always want to keep the old one.......Cheeeeze is that the time.

Hi Peter,

A great achievement - especially with tin.

Do you remember farthing specialist selling complete date runs?

What did you decide on problem dates eg 1689, 1693?

I don't even have a complete type set of currency farthings yet!

P.M. sent on swaps.

Colin - you may have made a smart move with the G/G. You know you

will have to upgrade. I have G/G and 1860 mule in VF ish. Not as good

as I would like - but good enough to stop me upgrading!

Teg

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What did you decide on problem dates eg 1689, 1693?

Teg

Try collecting them 2 at a time. Colin Cooke was doing 2 1689's for the price of 1 when the farthing collection was sold. 2 farthings = one halfpenny and so can be collected as such- see lot 662. :D

I was going to attach an image, but it doesn't seem possible any more?

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I've just completed all currency 1/4ds to 1672. :D

Peter,

Meant to say congratulations on your achievement :D , out of interest what were the last 5 dates filled?

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What did you decide on problem dates eg 1689, 1693?

Teg

Try collecting them 2 at a time. Colin Cooke was doing 2 1689's for the price of 1 when the farthing collection was sold. 2 farthings = one halfpenny and so can be collected as such- see lot 662. :D

I was going to attach an image, but it doesn't seem possible any more?

I thought about it! In the end I decided I needed a currency example more - so I bought lot 664.

So you got 662! Much cooler than my coin - you have your own Peck footnote.

Lucky for both of us - we bought at the lower end of the estimate.

Did Colin list who he bought the coin from?

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What did you decide on problem dates eg 1689, 1693?

Teg

Try collecting them 2 at a time. Colin Cooke was doing 2 1689's for the price of 1 when the farthing collection was sold. 2 farthings = one halfpenny and so can be collected as such- see lot 662. :D

I was going to attach an image, but it doesn't seem possible any more?

I thought about it! In the end I decided I needed a currency example more - so I bought lot 664.

So you got 662! Much cooler than my coin - you have your own Peck footnote.

Lucky for both of us - we bought at the lower end of the estimate.

Did Colin list who he bought the coin from?

A good job you wanted a currency example because I was only interested in it as a halfpenny.

Colin bought it from Peter Viola in 2004. The history I have on it so far is Spink 16 lot 824 sold for £410 and SNC 2/92 no.269 listed at £1500 - which I suspect it didn't sell for given it is nearly x4 the price a decade earlier. Nothing after that until PV. I don't know when the 'Bn' reference in Peck was noted. It came with a Spink ticket written by Mark Rasmussen and PV's ticket. Without question it's the most I have paid or am ever likely to pay for a Chas II halfpenny in poor!

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What did you decide on problem dates eg 1689, 1693?

Teg

Try collecting them 2 at a time. Colin Cooke was doing 2 1689's for the price of 1 when the farthing collection was sold. 2 farthings = one halfpenny and so can be collected as such- see lot 662. :D

I was going to attach an image, but it doesn't seem possible any more?

I thought about it! In the end I decided I needed a currency example more - so I bought lot 664.

So you got 662! Much cooler than my coin - you have your own Peck footnote.

Lucky for both of us - we bought at the lower end of the estimate.

Did Colin list who he bought the coin from?

A good job you wanted a currency example because I was only interested in it as a halfpenny.

Colin bought it from Peter Viola in 2004. The history I have on it so far is Spink 16 lot 824 sold for £410 and SNC 2/92 no.269 listed at £1500 - which I suspect it didn't sell for given it is nearly x4 the price a decade earlier. Nothing after that until PV. I don't know when the 'Bn' reference in Peck was noted. It came with a Spink ticket written by Mark Rasmussen and PV's ticket. Without question it's the most I have paid or am ever likely to pay for a Chas II halfpenny in poor!

Thanks Rob,

Peter Viola - I could not remember the name. As I recall he had a collection of William and Mary that Colin bought, including this.

That pushed him into detailing what W&M farthing varieties existed - which he included in one of his lists.

I visited him in Jan. 2005 to go through all the varieties - which is when he showed me your coin. We both thought it was fascinating and were not sure why Peck did not give it a proper entry. Great buy!

Teg

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Apologies Gents but when I said currency back to 1672 I should of said copper or bronze including all exergue/edge varients.

I also don't have the fabled "1676" (the recent offering from Mr Freeman didn't convince me) & I haven't the 1693 copper issue (or even seen one)

I only have one tin and that is a water worn James 11.

I also don't count Anne as currency.

The last coin arrived today and I'm chuffed to say the least.

Now its down to varieties and maybe a few upgrades.

Colin

I have three small hand wriitten lists..the oldest one is dated 17/10/1990 It had the recent prices of Coins offered for sale by Cooke and FS for example a 1851 in GVF was £13.50 & £19.00 with the respective dealers.

At that point I was after 1698 (both types) 1717,22,30,32,34,71 1842,44,49,51,52,55,56,59 & 63

The majority of these dates are rare and the prices I paid for these coins are safely hidden from Mrs Peters eyes (although I did pick up some bargains)

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Apologies Gents but when I said currency back to 1672 I should of said copper or bronze including all exergue/edge varients.

I also don't have the fabled "1676" (the recent offering from Mr Freeman didn't convince me) & I haven't the 1693 copper issue (or even seen one)

I only have one tin and that is a water worn James 11.

I also don't count Anne as currency.

The last coin arrived today and I'm chuffed to say the least.

Now its down to varieties and maybe a few upgrades.

Colin

I have three small hand wriitten lists..the oldest one is dated 17/10/1990 It had the recent prices of Coins offered for sale by Cooke and FS for example a 1851 in GVF was £13.50 & £19.00 with the respective dealers.

At that point I was after 1698 (both types) 1717,22,30,32,34,71 1842,44,49,51,52,55,56,59 & 63

The majority of these dates are rare and the prices I paid for these coins are safely hidden from Mrs Peters eyes (although I did pick up some bargains)

Peter,

Great achievement,

1676 is rubbish. Mr Freeman would have had it slabbed if it were genuine. We should be glad that our collecting was defined by C.C.

1693 copper, for me not currency.

Anne - again not currency.

What is your favourite farthing?

If you could only save one from your collection - which would it be?

Good call to pass on the tin issues!

Teg

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I have a gorgeous 1694 1/4 with perfect swedish copper.

The eye appeal is such that I haven't seen better.

I also have got Colins 1855 incuse ex Johnstone & aquired by Colin in 1976.The best example?

I have been thinking of getting this slabbed....but I still haven't.

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An update on the G over G, after several days soaking in olive oil, it became easier to remove the larger clumps of verdigris. I have provided images below of the three stages of the process.

Original State Obv

4.jpg

Original State Rev

4b.jpg

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After simple wash Obv

5.jpg

After simple wash Rev

5b.jpg

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After oil soak and careful verdigris removal Obv

6.jpg

After oil soak and careful verdigris removal Rev

6b.jpg

So what do you think, improvement or not?

Is it time to stop?

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Colin,

It's looking better with each step. When to stop is a hard one. By the time you realize that, you've usually gone too far. Good luck!

Bob C.

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I soak some copper and bronze coins in olive oil and mineral some takes more than two months to remove the verdegris and some oil is still in the coin.

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