Jump to content
British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

50 Years of RotographicCoinpublications.com A Rotographic Imprint. Price guide reference book publishers since 1959. Lots of books on coins, banknotes and medals. Please visit and like Coin Publications on Facebook for offers and updates.

Coin Publications on Facebook

   Rotographic    

The current range of books. Click the image above to see them on Amazon (printed and Kindle format). More info on coinpublications.com

predecimal.comPredecimal.com. One of the most popular websites on British pre-decimal coins, with hundreds of coins for sale, advice for beginners and interesting information.

Sign in to follow this  
Gary D

Unlisted 1937 proof brass 3d

Recommended Posts

Just returned from my hols and had this waiting for me.

1937_3d_proof3.jpg

I,ve not come across two varieties of the George VI obverse listed for the brass 3d, at least Peck doesn't mention it. I originally noticed this with the 1937 currency pieces and now I have aquired a proof of both types.

The difference is a slight rotation of the text which is most noticeable if you look at the pointing of the B in BR. I believe the 1st type exhibits the B pointing to the corner and only occurs in 1937. The second type is rotated so that the B is to the right of the corner and occurs for 1937 and 1938-52.

Edited by Gary D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just returned from my hols and had this waiting for me.

1937_3d_proof3.jpg

I,ve not come across two varieties of the George VI obverse listed for the brass 3d, at least Peck doesn't mention it. I originally noticed this with the 1937 currency pieces and now I have aquired a proof of both types.

The difference is a slight rotation of the text which is most noticeable if you look at the pointing of the B in BR. I believe the 1st type exhibits the B pointing to the corner and only occurs in 1937. The second type is rotated so that the B is to the right of the corner and occurs for 1937 and 1938-52.

I know it's over 18 months since you originally posted this enquiry. But as I have a complete set of brass threepences, I checked out what you said. I have three 1937 examples. One as part of my collection, and two previous fillers, which I retained in a box. The one in my collection shows the B of "BR" level with the corner, as in the second example in your pic. Interestingly, of the two fillers, one is like your first example, and the other, actually has the B a little to the left of the corner angle.

From 1949 to 1952, the BR is in a different place anyway, as the "Ind Imp" was dropped. But in the 1938 to 1948 inclusive, examples, the B starts directly adjacent to the corner.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Peck also doesn't mention the two reverses. I took a look at my 1937 threepences. I have one each of the B pointing at, and to the right of the corner paired with the reverse that has the REE of THREE close to the edge. With the other reverse with REE further from the edge I only have the obverse with B to the right of the corner.

Has anyone seen the forth pairing of REE further from the edge and B pointing to the corner?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Peck also doesn't mention the two reverses. I took a look at my 1937 threepences. I have one each of the B pointing at, and to the right of the corner paired with the reverse that has the REE of THREE close to the edge. With the other reverse with REE further from the edge I only have the obverse with B to the right of the corner.

Has anyone seen the forth pairing of REE further from the edge and B pointing to the corner?

Yes, I have all four types plus the two proofs and the Peck 2171 in my advatar. I thought my 3d collection was complete until about 3 weeks ago when Dave's varity book arrived. I then started looking for the sharp-edge 1949 which I came across at the Midland coin fair, the wallet is still in intensive care :o I also need to keep a look out for the 1967 minor variety.

I have often wondered if there are two varieties of the 1953 proof as with the business strike. Just have got around to putting any effort into it.

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The sharp cornered 1949 has long been known. A.J.Braybrook recorded it in his Coin Varieties article in the July 1971 article in Coin Monthly, and as been recorded by others subsequently, notably by Michael G Salzman in his handbook of Modern British Coins and Their Varieties 1797-1970.

Braybrook also lists for 1941, a ) Rounded angles on the outside edge. b ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with rounded angles in the inside edge; and c ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with sharp angles in the inside edge. I have found a) and c) but are still looking for b ). Have you come across this one?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can someone please outline what the 1967 variety is?

TIA

Hertfordian

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Braybrook describes the as 1) Slightly rounded on outside edge; and, 2) Edges completely squared, slightly thicker.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The sharp cornered 1949 has long been known. A.J.Braybrook recorded it in his Coin Varieties article in the July 1971 article in Coin Monthly, and as been recorded by others subsequently, notably by Michael G Salzman in his handbook of Modern British Coins and Their Varieties 1797-1970.

Braybrook also lists for 1941, a ) Rounded angles on the outside edge. b ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with rounded angles in the inside edge; and c ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with sharp angles in the inside edge. I have found a) and c) but are still looking for b ). Have you come across this one?

All four of my 1941's are type c.

Both my 1949's are rounded edge (of course). I've never seen a sharp cornered '49, nor knew of their existence before reading this. So thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The sharp cornered 1949 has long been known. A.J.Braybrook recorded it in his Coin Varieties article in the July 1971 article in Coin Monthly, and as been recorded by others subsequently, notably by Michael G Salzman in his handbook of Modern British Coins and Their Varieties 1797-1970.

Braybrook also lists for 1941, a ) Rounded angles on the outside edge. b ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with rounded angles in the inside edge; and c ) Sharp angles on the outside edge, with sharp angles in the inside edge. I have found a) and c) but are still looking for b ). Have you come across this one?

All four of my 1941's are type c.

Both my 1949's are rounded edge (of course). I've never seen a sharp cornered '49, nor knew of their existence before reading this. So thanks.

I also only found out about the 1949 sharp edge very recently, likewise I was not aware of Saltzman until quite recently. I wonder how many collector are aware of these lesser know publications. I suspect most only follow Spinks, Freeman, Davies, Peck etc. Oh and Rotographic of course.

As to the 1941 I suspect mine are a and c also, I'm not really sure what to look for on the inner edges.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
[both my 1949's are rounded edge (of course). I've never seen a sharp cornered '49, nor knew of their existence before reading this. So thanks.

By 'cornered', are we talking about the edge or the internal angles? I've just checked the 1949 I bought off Colin Cooke some years ago, and it has sharp edges. I looked close at the internal angles but have no idea which it is. I then checked the 1949 I found in change as a schoolboy and despite the wear, I'm pretty sure it started life as a rounded edge.

I'm not sure what this proves - I'd not heard of the 1949 variety until this discussion (it's not in the post-1816 varieties review contained in the 1970 Coins and Medals annual, which has been my varieties 'bible' up to now).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
All four of my 1941's are type c.

Both my 1949's are rounded edge (of course). I've never seen a sharp cornered '49, nor knew of their existence before reading this. So thanks.

I also only found out about the 1949 sharp edge very recently, likewise I was not aware of Saltzman until quite recently. I wonder how many collector are aware of these lesser know publications. I suspect most only follow Spinks, Freeman, Davies, Peck etc. Oh and Rotographic of course.

As to the 1941 I suspect mine are a and c also, I'm not really sure what to look for on the inner edges.

I wasn't previously aware of Saltzman, either. I noticed your photo of the two 1949's (sharp and rounded edge) on another thread. Thanks for that, Gary B)

By 'cornered', are we talking about the edge or the internal angles? I've just checked the 1949 I bought off Colin Cooke some years ago, and it has sharp edges. I looked close at the internal angles but have no idea which it is. I then checked the 1949 I found in change as a schoolboy and despite the wear, I'm pretty sure it started life as a rounded edge.

I'm not sure what this proves - I'd not heard of the 1949 variety until this discussion (it's not in the post-1816 varieties review contained in the 1970 Coins and Medals annual, which has been my varieties 'bible' up to now).

I think we're talking more about the outer edge, as opposed to the internal angles. As I said earlier, and like you, I'd never heard of a sharp cornered '49 until I read about, and saw, on here. I wonder what proportion of the 464,000 were sharp cornered.

It makes sense that some would be when you think about it, as 1948 were all sharp cornered, as were 1950 to 52, and henceforth after that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just checked my 1949 Brass 3d's. Out of 8 coins, I have one (1) Sharp edge (Corner) coin. If that is any indication of rarity (which it isn't), there are 12.5% of the 464,000 1849's that fit the sharp corner category! FYI!

Bob C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think we're talking more about the outer edge, as opposed to the internal angles. As I said earlier, and like you, I'd never heard of a sharp cornered '49 until I read about, and saw, on here. I wonder what proportion of the 464,000 were sharp cornered.

It makes sense that some would be when you think about it, as 1948 were all sharp cornered, as were 1950 to 52, and henceforth after that.

I'm not sure precisely how the brass 3d was minted. Was the collar for the dodecahedral edge separate? If so, if might be that - with only a small mintage required for the Colonies - they decided to re-use a rounded edge collar from an earlier year just to get the most out of it and save cost. Then turned to a sharp edge when the rounded edge was finished.

If Bob's count holds up, we can deduce that they got pretty good use out of that old collar :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I think we're talking more about the outer edge, as opposed to the internal angles. As I said earlier, and like you, I'd never heard of a sharp cornered '49 until I read about, and saw, on here. I wonder what proportion of the 464,000 were sharp cornered.

It makes sense that some would be when you think about it, as 1948 were all sharp cornered, as were 1950 to 52, and henceforth after that.

I'm not sure precisely how the brass 3d was minted. Was the collar for the dodecahedral edge separate? If so, if might be that - with only a small mintage required for the Colonies - they decided to re-use a rounded edge collar from an earlier year just to get the most out of it and save cost. Then turned to a sharp edge when the rounded edge was finished.

If Bob's count holds up, we can deduce that they got pretty good use out of that old collar :)

The 1948 comes in both sharp and rounded which is why I'd not looked any further with the 1949. I obviously did not looked at Peck close enough to see that the 1949 had reverted to the round edge type.

Something I have wondered about is, do the proofs have rounded or sharp edges as this would be an expanation as to why some years have both types .

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The 1948 comes in both sharp and rounded which is why I'd not looked any further with the 1949. I obviously did not looked at Peck close enough to see that the 1949 had reverted to the round edge type.

Something I have wondered about is, do the proofs have rounded or sharp edges as this would be an expanation as to why some years have both types .

Gary

I just had a look at Peck - he says :

"In practice the Royal Mint found that the life of the dodecagonal collar was shortened unduly by the development of cracks in its sharp corners. During the early years of the War, when the quantity and quality of steel suitable for die making were on the decline, the corners of these collars were made more rounded, and this resulted in a substantial increase in the effective life of the collars."

The shorter life sharp edge collars were therefore introduced for the last part of striking 1948s. With only a low run of 1949s projected, they must have thought a longer life round edge collar would suffice - it clearly didn't, and they must have needed a sharp edge collar (or more?) to complete the run.

Interestingly though, Peck doesn't record the 1949 rounded edge, as he doesn't note any edge change after the 1948 sharp edge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

With regard to Braybrook's rounded inner edges on the 1941 threepence, I believe that he is referring to the inner angles. If you look at Gary's pictures above, you will see that they have decidedly sharp inner angles. When looking at the inner angles of several of the other years many of them have decidedly 'unsharp' inner angles. In fact when trying to find some of Gary's BR varieties I was finding it quite difficult to decide where the upright of the B was pointing because of this.

If you look on ebay for examples of 1937 nickel brass threepences you will see a whole range of inner angle varieties. There also seem to be several types of the edge between the angles. Some are parallel and others 'cantilevered', that is thick in the middle and thinner at the ends.

I think that there is a whole range of study for someone with a bit of time on there hands! Looking at the old literature there seems to have been very little brass threepence research.

The thing that I find surprising is that no one had previously spotted the BR variety until Gary reported it a couple of years ago.

Also, I personally find just looking at the BR difficult and find that the opposite M of IMP either straddling the corner or slightly further around a bit easier to pick out. Either way my hat is off to Gary D.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
With regard to Braybrook's rounded inner edges on the 1941 threepence, I believe that he is referring to the inner angles. If you look at Gary's pictures above, you will see that they have decidedly sharp inner angles. When looking at the inner angles of several of the other years many of them have decidedly 'unsharp' inner angles. In fact when trying to find some of Gary's BR varieties I was finding it quite difficult to decide where the upright of the B was pointing because of this.

If you look on ebay for examples of 1937 nickel brass threepences you will see a whole range of inner angle varieties. There also seem to be several types of the edge between the angles. Some are parallel and others 'cantilevered', that is thick in the middle and thinner at the ends.

I think that there is a whole range of study for someone with a bit of time on there hands! Looking at the old literature there seems to have been very little brass threepence research.

The thing that I find surprising is that no one had previously spotted the BR variety until Gary reported it a couple of years ago.

Also, I personally find just looking at the BR difficult and find that the opposite M of IMP either straddling the corner or slightly further around a bit easier to pick out. Either way my hat is off to Gary D.

As you correctly say, the variations in the internal corner can make it difficult to determine the pointing. I found that to use the corner as a marker you need to get slightly over the coin and sight the external corner which being sharp gives a good indicator. It's interesting what you say about the documentation of this variety as DaveG38 has it described and illustrated in his excellent new varieties book. It would be interest to know his source as I would be surprised to find that this characteristic had not been previously described.

About the middle of 2006 I start to put together an ebook based on a scan of Freemans with a section on the 3d and varieties found since Freeman was last published. This happened to be a couple of week before the Freeman reprint which knocked the project on the head. If anyone is interested in the 3d section I would be happy to email it.

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary,

I like an email copy if you don't mind. Send to RLC35@aol.com.

Thanks,

Bob C.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just returned from my hols and had this waiting for me.

1937_3d_proof3.jpg

I,ve not come across two varieties of the George VI obverse listed for the brass 3d, at least Peck doesn't mention it. I originally noticed this with the 1937 currency pieces and now I have aquired a proof of both types.

The difference is a slight rotation of the text which is most noticeable if you look at the pointing of the B in BR. I believe the 1st type exhibits the B pointing to the corner and only occurs in 1937. The second type is rotated so that the B is to the right of the corner and occurs for 1937 and 1938-52.

First time I've looked at this interesting thread - forget the B in BR - the D of F:D is far easier to spot, the D points directly to a corner on the left hand coin - need to dig my thruppences out

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Gary,

I like an email copy if you don't mind. Send to RLC35@aol.com.

Thanks,

Bob C.

If you still have the 3d section of your ebook, Gary, I'd love a copy...'bout time my G-VI collection had a few more holes knocked in it!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not just about the pointing - it's the thickness of the rim and therefore how near the legend is to the rim (which would affect the pointings, I should think?). This could correspond to Sealy's varieties survey of 1970:

A. REE of THREE well spaced from rim. Slightly scarcer.

B. REE of THREE close to rim.

That obviously refers to the reverse, but the same variety could have obverse differences which haven't been reported to date?

Edited by Peckris

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my 3 1937 coins are :-

proof, B to right of corner, ree away from rim

business strike, b at corner, ree close to rim, 2 coins the same

ski

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

my 3 1937 coins are :-

proof, B to right of corner, ree away from rim

business strike, b at corner, ree close to rim, 2 coins the same

ski

Without doing a completely scientific survey I think that the B of BR slightly to the right of a corner is the standard obv pairing with the wide gape legend rv (i.e. the E of THREE is 0.5mm from the rim). Call this A+a.

The B of BR pointing (more or less) to a corner is the standard obv pairing with the narrow gap legend rv (i.e. the E of THREE is less than 0.5mm to the rim). Call this B+b.

I don't have any A+b or B+a coins out of the 7 or 8 1937 3ds that I own, therefore I guess that this is a non standard die pairing and much scarcer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  

×