Hammered Coins

[Geordie582 18]

I have been searching for an authoratative reference for the size and weights of hammered coins. You can find ready references for milled, the Colchester site for one, but only passing, rare information on hammered. So far I've perused all the Rotographic publications (sorry Chris), Spinks, North Coincraft, Wren, Brooke, Linecar and even Coffin ( mainly US collecting for those puzzled), without more than the occasional passing reference. As, once you get onto Penny, Halfpenny and Farthing comparisons and throw in the various re-coinages and reigns, things do seem to be very vague

Anyone know of a good site or publication for this data?

I would have thought that reference books on coins would have classed this information as basic. What are your thoughts?

[Sylvester 15]

There are none that I know of Geordie. Which as strange as this may sound, i find quite odd. Hammered coins were generally accepted on their weight so you'd think that it'd be fairly standard weight within a margin of error, due to coins being heavily circulated, or buried within hoards and thus under weight due to erosion.

Perhaps we're just gonna have to invest in some scales and weigh every one we come across...

[scottishmoney 18]

There were standards in grains that they had to conform to. But you have to factor that even within one mint there were variables, and then after the coin left the mint the real fun began with sweating(shaking in a bag) or just plain outright clipping of the edges to remove the silver. It would thus be rather impossible to ascertain an accurate weight range for the coins. I have some pennies from Edward I that have been clipped free of all legends.

[Sylvester 15]

Well yeah there is clipping. I had temporarily forgotten about that... (My mind's been away from coins for a long, long time).

I suppose there's your answer Geordie, hammered coins are just too, erm individual.

[Geordie582 18]

I had a PM from Chingford (he is apparently having trouble 'Replying' via Predecimal??) telling me of a book, published in 1884, listing weights of coins from Anglosaxon down. I don't suppose there's still a copy available, but I'll task our local library with the search and see what happens

My interest was precisely because of clipping, and the mysterious practice of taking chunks out to 'prove fitness'. I have a number of Eddy one's pennies with various shapes cut from the rim, and wanted to know how much the coins had been 'devalued' while in circulation

Edited August 27, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

BTW welcome back Syl

[Geordie582 18]

No luck with Amazon, Library or E-bay. Maybe a member knows of a source for this book?

"A guide to the coins of Great Britain & Ireland in gold, silver & copper" by Major W. Stewart Thornburn. Published 1884.

[Geordie582 18]

Thanks guys! I've had 4 leads by PM and have ordered a copy! It will be great to compare the stated weights with my collection!

Edited August 29, 2007 by Geordie582

[Geordie582 18]

Ordered (& paid) Yesterday, Arrived this morning. A great find, full of very interesting information. For instance, I should be able to pick up a Henry II Tealby penny in EF for around £1! Henry III in the same condition 1/- or 2/-. Hows that for an inflation measure! Great line drawings - and - Yes! weights (in troy ).

For reference:- Vendor,

John Turton Antiquarian Books,1/2 Cochrane Terrace, Willington, Crook, Co. Durham.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

So are you telling me you will sell me your Tealby Pennies for a mere Quid?

[Geordie582 18]

So are you telling me you will sell me your Tealby Pennies for a mere Quid?

No! But I'll buy all yours for that price

Thought you'd like to see the interesting use of metallic print in the book to show gold & silver coins!

My thanks to Rob for the tip as to where to find it!

Edited August 31, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

I have some 1950's era references on Scottish coins, funny how the illustrations were usually hand drawn and almost cartoonish by comparison to our nowadays colour images at high res.

[Geordie582 18]

They do seem to bring out the salient points, though. There is a big chapter on Scottish coins in this book!

Unfortunately, it is a bit terse in the descriptions of earlier coins, and tends to lump together whole swathes of history!

Edited September 1, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

Which is something I find with latter day references on Scottish, they tend to lump, overlook varieties etc. Coincraft made a reasonable attempt, but still overlooked some covered in earlier treatises.

It would be interesting to get all the Eddie the I pennies out and weigh them to see the variances though.

[Geordie582 18]

According to Thorburn, all Edward I pennies should be 22.5 grains, and Edward II 22.25 grains. I'm still a bit puzzled though. The Troy weights derive from the 'pennyweight' (dwt) being 24 grains "as this was the weight of a silver penny". Yet none of the pennies I have seen listed were more than 22.5 grains! Oh how strange is numismatics

The edits are, as usual, for slipped fingers (makes a change from slipped discs!)

Edited September 1, 2007 by Geordie582

[Geordie582 18]

I have just weighed 15 Eddy I's and 2 Eddy II's.

Provincial mints seem to be paring down the content! It's a bit complicated by the clipped and 'tested' items I have but it seems generally to be that London and Bristol are the heaviest (my examples averaging out to be 20.4 grains) and clipped samples down to 12 grains! 'Whole' samples vary from 18 grains to20.4 grains. Eddy II samples (Only two) One, slightly clipped at 18 grains and one whole at 20.4 grains.

Must get myself a more accurate scale. Mine measures Dwt to 0.01.

I've always wondered how the exchange of coin in those reigns was sustained, considering the rampant clipping that went on??

[scottishmoney 18]

I believe it is interesting when coins were cut also, how consequentially diminutive they would become. I have what purports to be a half of a penny which is smaller in fact than what by the nature of it's cutting to be a farthing.

In essence I would believe that in fact these coins continued to circulate, some being accepted based on the need of the recipient, but others may have in fact duly been discounted because of their diminutive status.

I have numerous, several dozens in fact, of cut halfpennies, and farthings. They would be quite interesting to study with an accurate to 1/100th of a gramme scale.

[Geordie582 18]

My gram scale is only accurate to the nearest 0.1.

[Geordie582 18]

I think I've got a handle on the Troy pennyweight question.

Up to Edward the Elder (901-925) the penny could be anything from 17 to 20 grains, but in his reign the penny was from 20 to 27 grains. So there was no consistant value. Even with Cnute the weight varied between 12 and 24 grains. The only kings to have 24 grain coins, and no other weight, were Edmund (941-946) and Eadwig (955-959). So it seems the standard of the Troy pennyweight must have been determined during either of these reigns!

All this if I can rely on the accuracy of our friend Thorburn

Now, however the 'Teach yourself Numismatics' states that the penny was set at 22.5 grains as this was one twohundred and fourtieth part of the Tower pound of silver (5400 grains)

You pays your money and takes your choice!

Edited September 2, 2007 by Geordie582

[scottishmoney 18]

So in essence if I was a 10th century merchant, I would have my balance beam scale setup in my market and test coins all day long.

[Geordie582 18]

You & me both!